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| One of Us |
Just want to get people's choice of calibers for long range shooting upto 500 yards. I am talking about shooting elk and larger species of sheep and ibex. I know a lot of folks claim thats kicking distance these days but to me it's a pretty long shot for ethical taking of game. I wonder whether the 300 magnum camp would win over the 7mm mag camp! Lets see what we have. | ||
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500yrds? Please. I was informed recently that it isn't considered "long range" until it's at least 600yrds  . There may be better rounds out there but I would think a good old 300 Win Mag would serve your needs pretty well. | |||
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I would say what is long range for one is not long range for all, it is based on experience. | |||
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I would go with the 300 win mag personally. | |||
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6.5x284  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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I have never shot a single head of BG at 500 yards but with a good 200gr bullet AND LEARNING HOW TO SHOOT YOUR RIFLE, I think the 300WM would take you where you want to go. I really like the 7mag but I'd also like the idea of the bigger ball that the 300 can send down range. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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The only problem with the .300win mag is that it's not the best .300magnum for 200-220 grain bullets due to its short neck. The .300H&H or .300Weatherby would be better choices. If you're not going any heavier than 180gr bullets, the .300winmag is great. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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264 win mag. Very fast and flat. Great ballistics on the 140 gr. bullets. I shot a wounded buck antelope this year @ 535 yds. Dropped like a rock but I also passed on a 450 yd. shot on a bull elk. I still question myself on that one but thats a long ways on a big critter. I don't think a bigger caliber would have changed my choice, but thats just me. | |||
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I just got done agonizing over that very issue and IMO the .30 cals have an edge over the 7MMs Look for good ballistic coefficient bullets and bonded.....not that one needs a bonded bullet at 500 yards but sure as hell if you're prepared for a 500 yard shot.....your elk will walk into view at 50 yards! I use the time honored criteria of 1500 FT-LB energy to make the standard and even the .280 Remington will be very close to that with the 160 Accubond. If I was to go the 7MM route it's be the 7MM STW. In the .30 calibers, the .30-06 will make the grade but If one wants to move up, I'd look to the Vanguard in .300 Weatherby. Given a (minimum of) a 1500 yard rangefinder and a range manager scope from Leupold, a good set of shooting sticks, and some trigger time at the range.....the 500 yard shot is not a trick at all! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Most anything in a magnum. | |||
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.338 Win Mag or 8mm Rem Mag ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I can't agree more other than I would add the .308 as well. Both the 6.5X284 and .308 hold more long range records than anything else mentioned here combined (Palma/Open Palma/600 yard (F) and BR). A simple fact. I'm sure it will be challenged though. Now, if I'm going to shoot at large game, I'll take my AIAR/W .338 Lapua Mag and drop an Elk at 1200 yards all day, every day....No problem...just put me on him. | |||
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Sorry, I ain't gonna buy into that short neck stuff about the 300WM. It was shouted to the heavens by the gun writers when the 300 came out but then they learned that it was a non-issue. With a 200gr bullet I could comfortably get 2850fps. Looking in the book, I don't see the H&H doing any better. While the Weatherby will get you another 150fps, it's at what cost in powder and recoil. While I've never shot any BG at 500 yards, I've shot targets out to 700 and was very surprised at just how accurate the 300WM can be with a shooter that is acclimated to the recoil and well practiced. FWIW, if I wanted to shoot a 180gr bullet, I just drag out the 30-06. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Absolutely no argument about how well those cartridges preform at those ranges-just consider them to light for elk at that range(which was the question) No doubt about about a 338 Lapua  SSR | |||
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any 30 magnum will work fine. If i had to pull one gun out of the safe to do it though it would probably be my 8mag shooting 200 grain partitions | |||
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I was going to say 300 mag BUT after reading how much a deer slayer the 223 is in the small caliber forums, I'd recommend the 223 with the cheapest bullets you can find. Should be good on Elk as well out to 500 yards. | |||
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Rem 300 or 7mm Ultras. Of concern is not just distance, trajectory, and accuracy, but arriving with enough power to humanely kill the animal. | |||
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Be that as it may. You have to admit it's pretty funny that people now feel like they almost have to apologize for asking about 500yd shots. | |||
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I realize that not everyone has been to Marine Corp boot camp but 500 yard really isn't that far by todays growing standards. Hitting at 500 is much easier than killing at 500. There is a cadre of individuals pushing the hunting limits well beyond 1000 yards but they are using monster cartridges and bullets to get it done. The old standard for effectively killing elk used to be 2000 foot pounds of energy and in order to maintain this level of energy to 500 yards you need a really high ballistic coefficient bullet combined with some high velocities. The 7mm mag could get it done if it can push a Berger 180/.284 bullet to 2900 fps but the ultra magnums are really the cats meow when it comes to long range hunting. Captain Finlander | |||
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I my opinion the 7 mag or 300 mag are good choices and would be fine for even further than 500 yds. You definitely don't need 200 gr bullets. What you need mostly is a rifle and optics that will shoot accurately the distance you want to shoot. You also need to have the ability to shoot it accurately. Good luck. | |||
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My 7mm rem ultramag is pushing a 160 grain slug at 3330 fps and shooting well under an inch at 100 yards and the deviation is more than acceptable for 500 yards plus. | |||
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Fair enough. In reality 99.9% of hunters never come close to shooting BG animals at 500yrds. On the internet it's so common we can't even call it a long shot. I find that humorous but I guess I'm the only one. | |||
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This is dead nuts accurate..... However there is one thing that is making a difference in long range game shooting and that's the 500 yard-capable rangefinder that can actually report back from a soft image 500 yards away.....spendy still.....but these things can take a lot of guess out of it by eliminating the errors in range estimates. When I get to the mountains, I'm a horrible estimator of range but a good rangefinder eliminates this problem. Now get a scope with the "crank up" crosshairs.....go to a range to confirm and all that's left is to find a good rest....It's getting easier all the time. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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No you are not the only one. I remember when everyone had pride in how close they got to make the kill etc. Now it seems the pride is how far you made the shot. To me if you want to brag about a 600yd shot brag about how you hit the gong or target. We owe it to the animal to make a quick clean kill. I admit to making kills over 500yds. Several in Texas along pipelines where we had marked off the distance and actually shot targets at each range to establish the drop. A couple in the MTS where the animal was on the other side of the canyon. Like Vapodog I suck at ranging in the Mtns so I did have a rangefinder. I had also been shooting 100s of rounds at long range. That all said I have no recommendations.  OK Changed my find. Coose one of the flat shooting calibers memtioned above with low enough recoil that you can accuratly shoot it. Then practice and when you think you are ready practice some more. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I have to agree with Vapo here. A great range finder is ecential when making long shots. I also have a hard time ranging in unfamilar terrain. It drives me nuts so I carry the best rangefinder I can afford. There is no doubt that any of the 300 mags and the 7mag will kill an elk at 500 + yds. if you put the bullet in the right spot. As far as ethics go: Is it more ethical to take the offhand shot at 90 yds thats hurried or the set up shot at 500? | |||
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I'd call them both the same. It depends on your skill level for both. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I personally like the Ultra Magnums for the longer ranges. The extra energy and flatter trajectory just has to help. Its a toss-up between the 7MM and the 300 to me. Love 'em both. Buy both and take turns. God Bless, Louis | |||
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6.5x284 with the heavy Berger VLD's. Any of the 30 magnums with the 200 grain Nosler Accubond. Most important is an accurate rifle and a good shooter behind it. 6.5x284 offers less recoil. A friend of mine has a Rem 700 Sendero 300 Ultra. Custom barreled by Greg Tannel. It has a Vais break. Just outstanding accuracy and very little recoil. I hate breaks, but I was truly impressed. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Our family has taken some elk at those ranges with the .300 Win Mag pushing Nosler BT's around 3100fps with good results. One of the most difficult influences at that range is doping out the wind. And if you can see them at those ranges it is usually pretty open which is then followed by usually windy. Rifle, scopes, lazer range finders, cartridges, and bullets are all currently being made to handle those distances. It's just the shooter that needs to also be calibrated. That's usually done by practice at those ranges and a lot of time reloading. I bought a section of steel H-beam that is about 20"x20" and have painted it white to standout. Put that thing way way out there and try to hit it with the wind and the elevation changes will sharpen your skills. To repeat what you have practiced is not a stunt. Just makes some guys jealous when you relate the experience. | |||
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I too consider 500yds a practical max for hunting as most bullets are running out of gas at that range & term performance suffers. It's not about punching holes in an animal, some have to be anchored right there or they drop off a rock face or into some other ugly palce to get to them. Since elk is in there, I think any of the 30mags would be a good choice. If you aren't recoil shy, a 338RUM. The issue will always be rifle weight when hunting steep mountain terrain. Anyone that says it's not an issue just hasn't done much of it. Take elk size game out, & I would be fine w/ STW or Dakota. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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How do you judge the wind between you and the target? Is the wind going in the same direction and velocity all the way to the target? How do you compensate for this? I have shot competition short range BR[up to 300yds] extensively for 25yrs and some 600 and 1000 yard competition. I have some strong opinions on long range hunting [400+yards]. I will not go into it here. Butch | |||
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Let me preface my reply; The only experience I've had at estimating wind is in shooting prairie dogs and this mostly with a hi-speed .224 bullet of 52 grains. If I'm confining my self to a 500 yard shot and throwing something like a 180 grain .308 caliber bullet, and the target is as big as an adult elk, and flight time of the bullet is about .6 seconds.....please tell me how much (90 degree) wind must I be concerned about? My 9-day hunt in western Colorado this season saw only one day of the nine where the wind blew enough to cause me to wonder about drift. The other eight days was almost dead calm..... Granted, on this trip I was confining my self to 300 yard shots as that was what I was sighted for and practiced at. My goal for next year is to extend my personal range to 500 yards.....so please give me your opinion....how much wind is enough to be concerned about.......and yes....how do I measure it? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Vapodog, I'll give you a bit of a hint on your question about dealing with a full value wind at 500yds. Since you mentioned a full value wind, 3 to 9 or 9 to 3 on clock face, take the range, R and multiply times V for velocity of wind, say you estimate it at 10mph, that gives you 500x10=5000. Divide that by 1000 and that gives you 5 or 5moa/R or L of wind adjustment for that particualar situation. Is it a perfect formula, absolutely not, but it is pretty damn close. It is the wind direction from other than full value or quarter value that is the tricky part and a system I have used for some years is take half of the reading using a full value answer. I can usually get on paper at 1000yds with these basic formulas with micrometer sights, sling and prone. Many folks can do the same thing, really nothing special just exposure and practice. Someone mentioned about the wind from firing point to target, and it is generally accepted that the wind has the most impact on the flight of the bullet during the initial exposure to the wind and that being the first third of it's flight. Adjust for that estimated wind speed and direction for it is the only real estimate that you can make. I have no problems at all in shooting paper targets at 1000 yds, but I have no desire to shoot an animal at extreme ranges. Missing the 10 or X ring on target and hitting an 8 or dreaded 7 is a matter of points(1000yd target is 72"square,) but such a miss on an animal is the difference in quick humane kill or a prolonged miserable death to the animal. That is not hunting. JMO | |||
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MFD.....in this case are we saying the wind drift is going to be close to 5" at 500 yards?.....or 5 MOA which would be 25"? I'll assume the former...
It would be my hope that every sportsman felt the same!.....Thank you! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Vapo you're ballistic charts will tell you how much it will move if it is a steady wind and 90deg to the target. It won't tell you anything else. Read this http://www.6mmbr.com/Winddrift.html. It appears that a 168 grain Sierra MK bullet in 308 will drift 25.3" at 500yds in a rt angle 10mph wind.It would be 75" or more at 1000 yds. All of this is easy if the wind is constant in velocity and direction. It ain't ever that way. What do you do if it is blowing at a different velocity and direction on the way to the target? Butch | |||
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Butch, I just checked my ballistics program and using a 180 accubond at a muzzle velocity of 3,000 FPS and a 10 MPH crosswind, the drift at 500 yards is about 16".....and this is a pretty good bullet and speed.... At 20 MPH wind the number doubles....and quite frankly makes the difference between a good hit and a crippling hit! It's clear that one needs to pay attention to this as well..... I frequently drop dust to see the wind direction but don't really have a way to estimate wind velocity.....any suggestions here? I use this one /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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The LaCrosse or Kestrel hand held meters work very well. They are both nice and small enough to carry easily in a pocket. Some also give altitude as well as barometric pressures, which if you have one of the nicer ballistic programs like Exbal loaded into a palm pilot or similar you can plot your shots in the field. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to use it at the time of the shot, but they are darn nice if you have the time to set up before making it. If your serious about reaching out and touching something it is nice to have the information at hand when doing so. Altitude and pressure both effect the flight of the bullet and the burn characteristics of the load. Mike / Tx | |||
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Vapodog, I am referring to MOA adjustments which would be 25", not 5". Should point out that this system was designed many years ago for the military and 30 Gov't.'06 round(works well for 308Win as well.) Primary reason for describing the system I use is that it is quick and easy in the field. Not to belabor the matter, but each clock face direction requires useing a different number to divide by and that becomes cumbersome and by doing the est. half of full value it works quite well. Est. of speed of wind is not that difficult, but that direction issue can be very tricky and averaging out the system is good approach. Several years ago while shooting Palma match at Perry, shooter on my firing point was using calculator, ballistics chart, windmeter, etc., and referencing all of this data prior to taking a shot. Caliber is of course 308, but his scores were terrible and he simply could not understand why his scores were not there and yet the math was dead on!! Human factor is huge. | |||
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