Mike,
The Kestrel only tells you what is happening where you are standing, not down range.
Butch

quote:

Human factor is huge.

That is one of the biggest parts of the whole package. IF the human part is not up to the shot, no amount of data or planning will ever direct the bullet to where it was supposed to be in the first place.

When we worked up our LR loads, we never used 100yd groups for anything other than to check that we were set up properly before shooting out to 500. We found 300yd groups were way more accurate at determining a group or an accurate load than any range closer. Of course we were shooting custom extreme bullets for caliber as well, using a 169.5 and 195gr RBBT ULD HP in .277dia. At 500 and out to 1150yds these shot very well, and the lighter ones also shot well as close as 200yds. Neither of them shot as good any closer.

I can say this about the wind, when we were shooting to 1150yds and setting up a drop table, there wasn't enough wind to move the blades on my meter, however I still got close to 4' of drift.

Moving on from caliber choice to skills required:

Long range hunting requires all the same requirements as does long range competition shooting. The shooting triangle has to be perfect, the Gun, the Ammo and the Shooter and if any one of the three is lacking so will the performance.

I would think 340Wby might be perfect with a 200 grain Acccubond. One of the most critical points to killing game at that distance is one I haven't heard yet. It's hard to find the animal and its hard to discerne what type of hit you made. If you don't have fresh snow or if your animal is not alone, sign can very hard to read let alone find to start with. It can be difficult to find the exact spot an animal was standing at the shot from 100 yards if you are shooting across a draw or swamp. Things can look very different after trudgeing even a short distance across rough terrain. Now if you try these types of shots without a spotter who can stay put and watch your spot, you could lose an animal that was DRT and just tipped in the brush. And it can be very difficult to get a good range from a RF out that far. I think making the shot with a big enough gun is the easy part, getting the game to bag is the tricky part.

The 8mm Remington would be a good choice.

I have used the 338 RUM successfully at 500 yds plus on several occasions. On dall sheep, elk and mule deer using the 225gr & 250gr Nosler AccuBond.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Finlander:
Moving on from caliber choice to skills required:

Long range hunting requires all the same requirements as does long range competition shooting. The shooting triangle has to be perfect, the Gun, the Ammo and the Shooter and if any one of the three is lacking so will the performance.

I think you've hit the most important issue of this entire thread....it's not so much the gun and cartridge.....it's how one uses it.!!!!

And more and more it should be called shooting and not hunting. If it was hunting we'd try to get much closer.....

The issue of holdover is almost a done deal with today's telescopes and rangefinders...

Lets get back to wind drift.

Butch....what pointers do you have for a 500 yard shooter?

Most all the calibers and rifles mentioned except for the 6.5/284 and 308 wouldn't exactly be a light mountain rig. Those magnums, especially the smaller bore ones, require that long barrel to achieve their claimed velocities. Sure you could make one pretty day light but you'll take a beating shooting it too.

The 6.5 caliber is a killer. My best friends brother took an Elk in Colorado years ago with the 264 Win Mag at near the 500 yard mark. Heart shot, went right down. My friend took the second Elk with it with the 30-06, heart shot, went right down. Now going to the even smaller 6.5 I know some friend that have taken Elk with the 6.5 Grendel in an AR 15. One was a measured 480 yards. The Elk went down a few yards from where it was shot. The Swedes have been killing Elk and Moose forever with the 6.5x55. By the way I don't advocate the 6.5 Grendel for Elk hunting, but the 6.5 caliber is a killer.

I'd like to mention, since magnums seem to be in favor, the 257 and 270 Weatherby Magnums.

Last but not least it's lots different shooting at 500 yards in the mountains on maybe a freezing day with heavy clothes on then it is on a Marine range.

Vapo,
Shooting competition you will have several windflags. Most of the best long range shooters find a wind condition they like and put the rounds downrange as fast as they can shoot. I believe the 5 shot light gun record group at 600yds is about .625 group. I believe it was done with both a 308 and a 6 dasher.
In the field hunting you don't have windflags and that is why I limit myself to 400yds when hunting. If the wind is up or even lite and switchy, I don't take the shot.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Mike,
The Kestrel only tells you what is happening where you are standing, not down range.
Butch

Your totally right about this. However, when your working up loads at long range, and your in the field day in and day out scouting, setting up targets and such across similar terrain that you will be hunting you will find that there are clues to look at when you are checking the conditions.

Tall grasses are always a good indicator, while not directly where your at they do represent some degree of wind speed depending on how they bend in the breeze. Shrubs, and small trees can also be used. It isn't hard to check what the wind is where your at, then head over a ways and check it there as well. Putting the two together while out in the field is part of learning to read the conditions. Is it easy, no, but then neither is spending the cash on the rig you built to shoot, working up the accurate loads which you will use, and spending the time to make sure it all works together.

There are a lot of natural wind flags so to speak. Are they able to be read down to the actual MPH, nope but they do give a general idea of what the wind is doing at the range your looking to soot and in between as well.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Vapo,
Shooting competition you will have several windflags. Most of the best long range shooters find a wind condition they like and put the rounds downrange as fast as they can shoot. I believe the 5 shot light gun record group at 600yds is about .625 group. I believe it was done with both a 308 and a 6 dasher.
In the field hunting you don't have windflags and that is why I limit myself to 400yds when hunting. If the wind is up or even lite and switchy, I don't take the shot.
Butch

That's interesting.....and probably very sage advice....I thank you for that as it comes from someone that has considerable experience.

I'll pack that in my memory for next years hunt.

Don't let my limitations affect what you do.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
6.5x284

I can't agree more other than I would add the .308 as well. Both the 6.5X284 and .308 hold more long range records than anything else mentioned here combined (Palma/Open Palma/600 yard (F) and BR). A simple fact. I'm sure it will be challenged though.

Now, if I'm going to shoot at large game, I'll take my AIAR/W .338 Lapua Mag and drop an Elk at 1200 yards all day, every day....No problem...just put me on him.

I think the .308 is somewhat questionable in its ability out past 500yds.
Much the same as some see .224 calibers as being "inhumane" at 150......

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
6.5x284

I can't agree more other than I would add the .308 as well. Both the 6.5X284 and .308 hold more long range records than anything else mentioned here combined (Palma/Open Palma/600 yard (F) and BR). A simple fact. I'm sure it will be challenged though.

Now, if I'm going to shoot at large game, I'll take my AIAR/W .338 Lapua Mag and drop an Elk at 1200 yards all day, every day....No problem...just put me on him.

I think the .308 is somewhat questionable in its ability out past 500yds.
Much the same as some see .224 calibers as being "inhumane" at 150......

Not that I advocate the 308 how about that shot that Army shooter made over in the sand box with a 308 just a tad over 1600 yards and killed his target when he only intended to get his attention because he was a sniper shooting at his men on a roof top?

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Vapo,
Shooting competition you will have several windflags. Most of the best long range shooters find a wind condition they like and put the rounds downrange as fast as they can shoot. I believe the 5 shot light gun record group at 600yds is about .625 group. I believe it was done with both a 308 and a 6 dasher.
In the field hunting you don't have windflags and that is why I limit myself to 400yds when hunting. If the wind is up or even lite and switchy, I don't take the shot.
Butch

Vegetation is your wind flags in the field and can be used with the aid of optics to make a wind call

338 RUM launching 250 grain Sierra Game Kings...mostly cause I have one that is capable.

But I have little interest in shooting at an elk at that range and less in carrying that rifle up a mountain.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Vapo,
Shooting competition you will have several windflags. Most of the best long range shooters find a wind condition they like and put the rounds downrange as fast as they can shoot. I believe the 5 shot light gun record group at 600yds is about .625 group. I believe it was done with both a 308 and a 6 dasher.
In the field hunting you don't have windflags and that is why I limit myself to 400yds when hunting. If the wind is up or even lite and switchy, I don't take the shot.
Butch

That's interesting.....and probably very sage advice....I thank you for that as it comes from someone that has considerable experience.

I'll pack that in my memory for next years hunt.

Like jwp says, the things in the natural environment are your wind flags. A wind meter is indispensable as well as other tools (drop data on a PDA where current atmospheric conditions can be input).

Practice is indispensable as well as perfect load and equipment.

Shoot a match like the Sporting Rifle Match at Whittington. I shoot it monthly in tandem with a Precision match here in town. Targets are taken out to 900 yards at Whittington.

After a year or two of matches, you will develop experience and skill

We made this video during my third match. My equipment was basically a coyote rifle up to then. Since, I have found the value in having the proper equipment and handloading skill.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
6.5x284

I can't agree more other than I would add the .308 as well. Both the 6.5X284 and .308 hold more long range records than anything else mentioned here combined (Palma/Open Palma/600 yard (F) and BR). A simple fact. I'm sure it will be challenged though.

Now, if I'm going to shoot at large game, I'll take my AIAR/W .338 Lapua Mag and drop an Elk at 1200 yards all day, every day....No problem...just put me on him.

I think the .308 is somewhat questionable in its ability out past 500yds.
Much the same as some see .224 calibers as being "inhumane" at 150......

Not that I advocate the 308 how about that shot that Army shooter made over in the sand box with a 308 just a tad over 1600 yards and killed his target when he only intended to get his attention because he was a sniper shooting at his men on a roof top?

A .308 "questionable past 500 yards". Nothing questionable about it. I saw an Elk drop like a flipped hotcake at 700 yards with a 165 Gr. Spitzer. I don't recall taking anything myself over 400 yards with my .308, but I have witnessed more than once a great shot well past your 500 yard "questionable" zone with ease. I do however ring 1000 yard bells all day with my BAS/10K .308 but never any deer sized game. If you were to look at the energy left at 1000 yards with a 165 Gr. bullet, it seems more than adequate to down a deer and I'm sure it has. After-all, it's dropped many bad guys at that range for a long, long time.

My choose: 6,5x68S

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

quote:
realize that not everyone has been to Marine Corp boot camp but 500 yard really isn't that far by todays growing standards.


Fair enough. In reality 99.9% of hunters never come close to shooting BG animals at 500yrds. On the internet it's so common we can't even call it a long shot. I find that humorous but I guess I'm the only one.

No you are not the only one. I remember when everyone had pride in how close they got to make the kill etc. Now it seems the pride is how far you made the shot. To me if you want to brag about a 600yd shot brag about how you hit the gong or target.

We owe it to the animal to make a quick clean kill.

I admit to making kills over 500yds. Several in Texas along pipelines where we had marked off the distance and actually shot targets at each range to establish the drop. A couple in the MTS where the animal was on the other side of the canyon. Like Vapodog I suck at ranging in the Mtns so I did have a rangefinder. I had also been shooting 100s of rounds at long range.

That all said I have no recommendations.

OK Changed my find. Coose one of the flat shooting calibers memtioned above with low enough recoil that you can accuratly shoot it. Then practice and when you think you are ready practice some more.

I prefer my 45-70 with the 36" bbl and target sights for all my 500 yd Elk kills, but I think Ill build a small mortar tube for said task. They say three shots is all it takes to zero one of those babys.. I know, ya'all think Im out in left field. Its a heavy artillary thing..

I wonder how many guys on this board have ever killed an Elk @ 500 yds? And found it.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

quote:
realize that not everyone has been to Marine Corp boot camp but 500 yard really isn't that far by todays growing standards.


Fair enough. In reality 99.9% of hunters never come close to shooting BG animals at 500yrds. On the internet it's so common we can't even call it a long shot. I find that humorous but I guess I'm the only one.

No you are not the only one. I remember when everyone had pride in how close they got to make the kill etc. Now it seems the pride is how far you made the shot. To me if you want to brag about a 600yd shot brag about how you hit the gong or target.

We owe it to the animal to make a quick clean kill.

. . .
That all said I have no recommendations.

OK Changed my find. Coose one of the flat shooting calibers memtioned above with low enough recoil that you can accuratly shoot it. Then practice and when you think you are ready practice some more.

Good words.

To that one adds price and rifle considerations.

The 338 Lapua would be wonderful, but needs a custom job at $3000. You can cut costs on that with the ballistically similar 338 RUM. On the other end of the spectrum, one can get a lightweight, MOA-accurate Tikka in 338 WM or a 300 mag for around $700. Lots of other choices as prices rise toward $1000. If you want controlled-feeding, then a Ruger or Win M70 is your starting level.

Personally, I use a 338WM with 225 TTSX (BC .514) at 2800 for long range whack. I'm experimenting with a super-long 265 TTSX. They are very accurate in one of my rifles, and have a BC around 600, but move a little slow at 2575 fps. That may not mmean much, though, because you should be using a rangefinder over 300 yards, and a more expensive rangefinder at 500 yards. You can always sight off of trees and rocks, but at long distance you don't want to be guessing about 25-50 yards.