Over the years various gun manufacturers have tried to revive old wonderful calibers like the 257 Roberts and the 35 Whelen. Well the Roberts still survives but the Whelen doesn't.

On paper the Whelen appears to be the most leathal non magnum rifle caliber I have ever seen. Any gun that can drive a 250 grain bullet over 2600 fps. Now that is the all around rifle for big game.

WHY DIDN'T IT SURVIVE?

The Whelen did survive. Remington is making them again in teh 7600 slide action due to demand. I am not sure if it is a special run or if it is intended to be back in production.

I bought a 7600 new back in 1993. What a great gun in an outstanding big game round. I use mine for hunting blackbears and deer in heavy cover. Quick to point, rliable and accurate. I get 1" groups with mine with 250 grain factory core lokts. And the point of impact has NEVER changed in the 10 years I've owned it.

Popular with other shooters or not, it is my favorite caliber.

[ 11-13-2003, 17:24: Message edited by: Iron Buck ]

The 35 Whelen will live forever, it's much better than the shortfatstupid magnum craze!

7-30 Waters,

What an interesting question! My take is three fold, the first is a misguided focus by hunters, shooters, and gunwriters on long range shooting.

The Whelen has always been billed as a medium range sound. That's the kiss of death. A majority of hunters believe that they must be ready for that "one shot in a lifetime" poke at a 450 yards B&C buck.

It does not matter, that most have not shot @ 450 yds, even on paper. It does not matter that most cannot tell 450 yds from 350 yds (the popularity of laser rangefinders not withstanding).

They feel they must be ready for that shot. And a "medium" range round does not cut it.

Second bugaboo about the Whelen is recoil. Compaired to the great 270-280-30-06 clan, the 35 Dubya kicks 20% more. Since in my view, 10% of hunters/shooters will flinch with anything that goes bang, 10% will not flinch, no matter what the recoil (Alot of those 10% live here on the Big Bore Forum). The remaining 80% will have a variety of recoil levels. What this means is that somewhere around 30 to 40% of the gun buying crowd will not be able to shoot the 35 Dubya with any comfort or success. I'm not immune from this either. I count myself in the 80%. Once bullet weight gets over 500 grains, and velocities exceed 2300 FPS, I begin to loose my enthusiasim for shooting, quickly.

So couple the recoil sensitive, with the long range crowd, and you have a majority of hunter/shooters/gunbuyers that wouldn't take a Whelen hunting, even if given it for free.

The last fly in the Whelen's ointment, is that most hunter/shooters/gunbuyers hunt nothing bigger than game the size of deer. As great as the Whelen is, it's power is simply not needed on animals that top out @ 300 or so lbs.

Even though I own and use a Whelen, my "go to" whitetail basher is a 358 Winchester.

I leave the Whelen for game a might bigger than bambi.

At least that's my take on the market failure of the Whelen. Please note it is only a commercial failure; the Whelen does not fail, in the hearts and minds of those who use it, and love it.

Regards,

Bob

-------------
There is no such thing as a "stupid" question. But, did you ever notice there are a fair number of inquisitive idiots in this world!

[ 11-13-2003, 18:10: Message edited by: Shadow ]

I tend to agree with Shadow. "Success" in the mind of the hunting public seems to be 3,000 fps with hunting bullets.

For brush hunting, there really is no benefit to use a Whelen rather than a 35Rem. For "western elk hunting", the 338mag is just a little flatter. Not that it matters in 99.9% of the situations.......

In the end, the public is not willing to pay the price (IMAGINED recoil) of the 35Whelen. Last year, I hunted elk with some friends from Texas. They used '06's with 180's, I used my Whelen with 225's at 2500 fps. They were deathly afraid of that "big gun", yet I'd much rather shoot it than an '06 or 7mag. FWIW, Dutch.

It didn't have a belt, or have magnum in the name, and oh so many people want that lase flat trajectory so they can gut shot better out beyond where they should be shooting.

Long live the .35's. Sean

The 35W is a hunter/rifle cranks round. The avg. "hunter" wants to be able to go to Walmart, buy the ammo, maybe sight the scope in & then go hunting. I think that's why the .270 remains so popular, it's easy to shoot (read, light recoil) & you can buy ammo anywhere. TO ME, rounds like the 35W, .338-06 are perfect for NA big game and I don't care if I have to handload them.

[ 11-13-2003, 18:41: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Gents:

Thanks for the replys. I just bought my first 35 cal rifle. I bought a Marlin 336C in 35 Rem. Opening day is this Saturday the 15th here in Nebraska. Can't wait to bust a nice deer with a 200 grain round nose. I always thought the 35 cal was under rated. A 358 Win or 35 Whelen would be a nice addition to my gun stash. Maybe I will have to build one after the kids are grown up.

For the first time in 14 years I will be shooting factory loads. Didn't have time to work up any handloads. I will save this as a summer project.

As for recoil. Yes I fit into that 80%. I shoot a 54 cal inline muzzle loader. I found out what pain was this summer trying out the new Hodgdon 777 powder. I loaded 120 grains and was getting 1750 fps behind a Hornady 390 Great Plains bullet. That is 300 fps faster than 120 grains of Pyrodex RS. Ouch did it hurt. After 3 shots my shoulder was numb.

The .35 Whelan was dreamed up back in the depression era as a "big bore" that one could make up with minimal expense on a Springfield. Back then there just was nowhere near the wealth around as there is now and a .375 H&H cost a fortune.

The fact however that the .35 was not legal or what ever for Africa and Shadows comments shows that there is no market for it now.

Recoil really does matter to many people. Two of my buddies who are really into shooting at the range a lot like I am have serious physical problems that age and a lot of shooting have brought on. One has now had major shoulder surgury and that has kept him out of work and out of another African safari. The other guy has a bursa or something in his upper arm. Both are now shooting with Past pads.

If you can take it then good for you. Nobody ever knocked Rocky Marciano down, not even once, however he quit at an early age. Be careful.

Savage99,

Not to be contentious, you said...

quote:

---

The fact however that the .35 was not legal or what ever for Africa and Shadows comments shows that there is no market for it now.

---

The 35 Whelen is quite "legal", to use in Africa, just not for dangerous game, in some countries.

Even then, if you and your PH are mile from the truck, and a nice lion happens by, and they are on your agenda, and they are on your PH's license, and all you have with you is a 35 Whelen, I think in most cases you will get the OK, to go and shoot it. (assuming of course, the right conditions, the right bullets, and the PH, has the right firearm along to back you up, if something goes wrong)

In fact I think a battery of a 35 Whelen, coupled with a 416 or 404 of some sort, is just the berries, for bushveld hunting. Just my HO, of course.

Bob

What killed the .35 Whelen? Well, in my opinion, it was the .338 Winchester Magnum that was introduced in 1958. The .338 filled the same gap between the .30 calibers (.30-06 and .300 Magnums) and the .375 H&H Magnum. And, the .338 fit into the same standard length actions. Plus, the .338 came along at the beginning of the short belted magnum craze. At the time, the .35 Whelen was a handloader's proposition only while the .338 had readily available factory ammunition.

-Bob F.

I am happy to report that the 35W is alive and well at my house. I have an original production Remington 7600 and also an NEF Ultra-Handi in the Whelen, and I ain't sellin' either...ever!

338 Win Mag

I'm all for the 35 Whelen for certain hunts. In fact, I'm building a custom in its cousin, the 350RM. But for certain situations, a rainbow trajectory is not going to cut it. Alot of back-east folks tend to overlook this fact and pay the piper when they come out West to hunt.

"This ain't Whelen country boy!"


To be fair, there are areas in the West where a Whelen would outshine its competition. I can't think of a much better black bear or elk in the timber cartridge.

MtnHtr

[ 11-13-2003, 22:12: Message edited by: MtnHtr ]

MtrHtr,

Gee, I never would have guessed that 300 yds, out west, was longer than 300 yds. back east. I recon we don't have any beanfields or powerline right of ways or mountains here either.

Let's see, rainbow trajectory:

I load my 35 Whelen to just under 2700 FPS with 225 grain Nosler Partition.

Sighted 2" high @ 100 yds we get:

0.0 @ 200
- 8.7" @ 300

Let's see, load the 300 Weatherby to 3000 FPS with 200 grain Nosler Partition, Sight 1.5" high @ 100 we get:

0.00 @ 200
- 6.5" @ 300

A wopping 2.2" worth of difference! Guess your right, ranges are longer out west, and rainbows are shorter.

Regards,

Bob

[ 11-13-2003, 22:31: Message edited by: Shadow ]

Shadow,
Try your figures again only this time throw in some 400yd trajectories. You do have some 400 and even 500yd beanfields don't you?

Keep in mind I am not anti-Whelen, I just like to pick the right tool for the job.

MtnHtr

MtHtr,

Sure we have 400 yd beanfields. But nobody I know with more than half a brain shoots that far, at big game. Do you????

Maybe it's a Kalifornia thing. Things are bigger out west, like ranges, rainbows and mountains. Remember Kalifornia is like a box of granola, what ain't fruits and nuts, is flakes.

500 Grains,

I didn't realize there has been no signifigant progress since Bock invented the 9.3x62. Better turn in your fog proof Binoc's, scopes, and laser rangefinders, before the word gets out your not really a Ludinite.

Regards to all,

Bob

Shadow,
Mind your manners now. If the rifleman and his equipment are up to it, then 400yd+ shots are certainly do-able. Where have you been? Your posts speak of anti-long range shooting which is most likely based on your incompetence in marksmanship and rifle skills.

MtnHtr

MtnHtr,

Yes, sir, 400 yard shots are possible, but that does not mean that they are a good thing or the right thing to do, IMHO.

And my shooting is very good, short or long range. But that is not the point.

Want to shoot at 400 yds and beyond, be my guest, and the best of skill and luck to you.

But that does not mean the rest of us have to shoot at that range. In that case, drop at 400 yds. is not relevant, to us.

Skill as a hunter comes not from how far you can shoot and kill, but how close you can get, with out blowing it. Again, IMHO.

No offence intended, of course.

Good day to you, sir.

Bob

[ 11-14-2003, 02:10: Message edited by: Shadow ]

Hey Shdow, no one said the possibility of long shot's doesn't exist in the east. However, here in the west if you could put a percentage on it probably 75% (+) of the shots are beyond 100 yards. Back east I'd bet 75% of the shots are under 100 yards. As to a 400 yard shot, a lot of guys I know consider 400 yards a chip shot... it all depends on you training. My last four kills were at 300, 225, 285 and 225 yards. Nothing particularly long range for a practiced rifleman...

What killed the .35 Whelen?

That's an easy one. The .338 Win. Mag.

I agree with 500 gr the 9.3x62 is a far superior cartridge and the whelen could never compete with it

I think much of Shadow's assessment of the Whelen in particular and 35s in general is smack on.

But I'd like to rise to MtnHtr's defense here and say that I think he is being improperly dismissed. His photograph of just how "difficult" MUCH western hunting can be is an EXCELLENT. As such it SHOULD be taken quite seriously. Let those with eyes see and those with brains think.

Now, let me also state that I think Shadow is jumping to some unstated conclusions and reading things into MountainHunter's post that really aren't there.

Point One: The "openess" and special problems of hunting open western lands must be seen and hunted to fully appreciate...not only the added burdens it places on a shooter but also the added problems in even manuevering and APPROACHING for a shot. If you haven't done it, don't poo poo it.

Point Two: Nowhere is MtnHtr saying that because you can SEE an animal a zillion yards away should a person shoot at it. He's not said or advocated that.

Point Three: The problems with distance which western hunting may often involve does not alter trajectories, velocities or a given shooter's abilities. Whether we are on the east coast or the west, each of us can only do what we can do with a given firearm.

Point Four: All in the world MountainHunter is suggesting, IMHO, is that out in the Western states MOST hunters are going to be far more RANGE CONSCIOUS of a rifle than a shooter in different regions. Nowhere is he, nor am I being critical of the Whelen. It's an excellent cartridge but for a lot of western hunting areas, it is really, as MtnHtr puts it, "not Whelen Country."

Bear in mind, hunters, as a group, fanatically believe they NEED the ultimate bang stick in whatever caliber. And many will spare no expense to have it. Go to the Big Bore forum and you will find the quest for bigger and bigger bullets and more and more muzzle energy often pushed to the point of absurdity. Go to the Varmint or Small Bore forums and the sacred cow is velocity. Nothing is fast enough or flat enough.

This obsession with the ultimate is what holds the Whelen down. And advertising HYPE and their whores, the gun writers, make certain the hunting masses are never going to look seriously or have access to Whelens in any quantity. It ain't gonna happen and however fine a rifle the Whelen may be is really immaterial. The originators of the Whelen and the VAST MAJORITY of other wildcat developers knew and understood this from day one. Nobody in their right mind designs a cartridge with the silly notion that the factory will grab their design up and start mass producing them and soon half the human race will be shooting their .250 Whatchamacallit.

Gunmakers don't much give a hoot in hell what cartridges we dream up. They want their OWN designs and developments and it's a great compliment to a wildcat whenever there is ANY factory production of it, however small.

And whether you like it or not...or agree or not with what MountainHunter is trying to say in this thread, 98% of the shooting world is going to look his instructive photograph and say, "That ain't Whelen Country!"

Most American shooters have long ago been duped into the "Magnum Cult." Most totally believe anything without a belted case can't be a serious cartridge and is by default vastly inferior.

What killed the 35 Whelen? Nothing! It's probably as popular or more so now than it ever was. And it will likely have a following forever. But this is likely as good as it's ever going to get for this fine cartridge.

Great picture of the problem MtnHtr.

Shadow....good comments as far as you went. You ignore issues like time of flight/velocity and wind drift......which can be worse demons to a shooter in western environments than simple up and down trajectory. Western country is more than just open.....it's usually full of damn tricky winds as well. It really isn't the best Whelen country.

As long as their are gunsmiths and 35 Whelen chamber reamers, there are going to be 35 Whelen's.
AS I once said here, who takes only one rifle on a hunt? If you need to make the 6 or 700 yard (yuck) shot, you may need the 373 super loudenboomer, or whatever. If a man wants to keep his shots to say, within 350 yards or so, the Whelen is just fine. Hell a guy may even stretch that to 400 yds. Thats a guy mind you, not me.

For you 338 Win Mag guys, let me post a little ballistic information for you, and then in all fairness you can compare them to the same ballistics for the Whelen below.

337 Win Mag. 250 grain bullet @ 2800fps.
Sighted 3" high at 100 its 4" low at 300, and 9" low at 350.

35 Whelen 225 Ballistic tip @ 2700 fps
sighted 3.3" high at 100 its 4.5 low at 300 and 10" low at 350.

The difference is 1 to 1.5 inches. Now notice also I used generous loads for both. How's the 338 Mag look at 500 yds. Better be shooting a big 30 if thats your need.

Jerry

Mtnhunters pic is accompanied by the words "this aint Whelen country boy"..

Well, I reckon not! Looks like varmint country to me.

Every time I see these references to "the west" and all the "long shots" it makes me scratch my head just a bit. Last time I checked, my home state of Utah was considered kinda westerly, and Ive never had a problem finding forests of tall thick timber here, nor have I been forced to shoot at big game at 300+ yards. Maybe Im just not west enough?? Or maybe Im too far west, (Ive seen Kansas and Texas!!).

The Whelen... by the time it was finally commercialized was already ballistically bested by the 338 WM, (or about to be). But that shouldnt take away from the fact that it had already seen many years an an OUTSTANDING wildcat. Its former reputation was the reason that it was eventually commercialized, and because of that expectations were high. Too high.
What was unforseen by Remington was the fact that the great majority of the lower 48 wanted something smaller and for the most part rightfully so. The Whelen is at its best in Alaska and Canadas bear country and Im guessing that it was glorified in Remingtons eyes by the few, the proud, the gunwriters, who saw frequent trips to that country. The rest of America didnt really need a 250 grain pill, and back then people were into weird shit like "making sense" and "not using more gun then they needed". Go figure..

The fact that the factory rounds were anemic didnt help boost its status either.

PC wrote

"I agree with 500 gr the 9.3x62 is a far superior cartridge and the whelen could never compete with it"

Your right, it couldnt "compete" with the 9.3, it was on the wrong side of the OCEAN!!!

The Whelen was a North American round, the 9.3X62 was largley european and generally one was independant of the other where cartridges were concerned with only a few exceptions. Like the 30-06, the 7X57 and the 303 british. Also the H&H mags which were already appropriatly mentioned in light of the topic. Many VERY popular european rounds are still virtually unknown in the states to this day and the 9.3 is just beginning to get a foothold in America.

But the whelen isnt dead, Im sure that there are still lots of them lurking about and will be for a long time. Look at the 257 Bob. It has been declared clinically dead a number of times, but it keeps on fooling the experts..

[ 11-14-2003, 06:55: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

Savage 99 I've got an old 8mm movie up in the Attic showing an old Archie Moore putting Rocky Marciano on his back for about an 8 or 9 count. The referee interferred enough to keep Archie from knocking Marciano stone cold, and allowed him to recover. The "Rock" was definetly down flat on his back stiff for a few seconds. Walex

250-grain HE .338 Nosler Partition at 2800 fps, rifle sighted +1.8" at 100 yards:

Muzzle = 2800 fps/4350 foot-pound
100 yards = 2610 fps/3775 foot-pound, +1.8"
200 yards = 2420 fps/3260 foot-pound, 0.0"
300 yards = 2250 fps//2805 foot-pound, -8.8"
400 yards = 2080 fps/2395 foot-pound, -22.5"
500 yards = 1920 fps/2035 foot-pound, -44.9"

225-grain .338 HE TBBC at 2940 fps, rifle sighted +1.7" at 100 yards:

Muzzle = 2940 fps/4320 foot-pound
100 yards = 2690 fps/3610 foot-pound, +1.7"
200 yards = 2450 fps/3000 foot-pound, 0.0"
300 yards = 2230 fps/2475 foot-pound, -7.5"
400 yards = 2010 fps/2025 foot-pound, -22.0"
500 yards = 1810 fps/1640 foot-pound, -45.0"

You will notice that at long range the 250 grainer will maintain its velocity at a greater rate than the lighter bullet. Also, the heavier 250 grainer will provide a bigger punch at long range than the 225 grainer.

Both bullets will out penetrate the .35-caliber 250 grainer when fired at similar velocities, at least according to Finn Aagaard. This is understandable, since .33 bullets have greater SD than .35-caliber bullets.

To compare a .35 Whelen to a .338WM would be like comparing a .338WM to a .375H&H. Now, to compare a .35 Whelen to a .338-06 is fair enough, because both use the same .30-06 case.

Where bloody sensitive over here on the .35 whelen forum.....just kidding around I could not give a hairy huntsmens hymen wether one bloke chooses the whelen or the 9.3 or whatever

Now that the 9.3 is availbe in reasonable quantities I would definitely encorage someone contemplating building a rifle of this power level without a belt to consider the 9.3x62 before the .35 whelen.

Walex,

That's very interesting. My information is from something I read. You just can't believe everything you read can you.

Both Rocky and Archie Moore were favorites of mine on the old Friday Night Fights. Archie was on a lot more it seems. Of course he had four or five times more fights than Rocky.

Pc I have never seen a "hairy huntsmens hymen" ! What is it?

Here in the states, the 9.3x62 is comming on strong, and probably will always be ahead of the 35whln in popularty, now that conponents are increasing.

Like Pecos said, companies are reluctant to grab ahold of a wildcat. This oftan the case (I believe) because arms manufactures and ammo manufactures go into a deal, and want their own propritary cartridge, not something you can make off of a 30-06. The common change is turning a rim down (because they know its beyond most common folk) that way they have control over ammo sales. Also... smaller companies would be slower to tool up for brass.

The 35whln will always exist.

9.3 and 35 whln, great cartridges.

My Whelen dead!??? Oh no it ain't. It MAKES things dead.... very dead.

Eleven mule deer bucks, forteen elk, two white-tails (one shot), one black bear, and a pick-up layer each of porcupines, jack-rabbits and misc. furry things.

It was built before it was a factory round and will hopefully be still shooting long after it's "obsolete".



275 Barnes .049 jacket SP @2555fps. Load for the first twenty years.... OUCH!!

225 Barnes X at 2710fps. New load.

Amen, Jack! I don't have quite the tally you have with my .35, but have killed elk, caribou and mule deer with it over the past ten seasons. Ranges have been from about 40 yards to pushing 400. I have no hesitation about hunting in the most open country (can you say Mulchatna caribou) with it. As far as I'm concerned, if it's too far away to shoot at with my Whelen, its also too far away to shoot at with anything else in my arsenal -- or in any one else's arsenal, in my hands.

As far as MtnHtr's picture goes -- that's definitely Whelen country. Look at all those hills and valleys and ravines and folds in the landscape. Just right for a hunter to sneak up within Whelen range...which is pretty much within rifle range in general. The .35 Whelen ain't no .35 Remington -- it's plenty adequate way out there.

As long as there's a .35 caliber bullet and an '06 based case available -- MY Whelen won't be dead! But the stuff I like to eat will be, on a pretty regular basis.

Right on Jack and muledeer,

I believe that the 35 Whelen to be an ideal big game cartidge. I read about "Pondaro" Taylor acculades for the 350 Rigby and said, I can get those figures in my Whelen. I also load 225 Barnes X bullets though mine top out at 2625 fps. Anyway I took that combo to Namibia last year and found it to be ideal. Took gemsbok, red hartebeest, mt.zebra, and impala. In the states I've taken black bear and deer. Plan on taking it back to RSA in '04

My rifle is an old custom rifle built on a Springfield 1903 action. Don't believe I will ever part with it.

BigBullet

[ 11-14-2003, 16:13: Message edited by: BigBullet ]

WOW!!!! You gents are really passionate about this round. I didn't realize I would stir up so much discussion.

Heck the 35 Whelen isn't dead. The gun lives on through all of you and I am sure there are more loyal 35 Whelen owneres who don't even post on this sight.

I am glad my wife doesn't read this forum or she might get the idea I am thinking about another gun.

Thanks,

7-30 Waters

Sometime back I was fixated on building Perfect Pairs for the various continents. Eventually I chose the .318 WR and the .404 Jeff for Africa, and the 6.5 Mannlicher and the 9.3x62 for Europe. What I haven't been able to do is come up with a Perfect North American Pair. For practical purposes I suppose I ought to get a .270 and a .338 Win and name them Jack and Elmer but I can't get away from the idea that the more stylish choice would be a .257 Roberts and a .35 Whelen. Obviously, this thread will come down on the latter.

I see these energy and bullet drop comparisons.
Unfortunately if the BC of the bullets used are not the same and the 100 yard sight in are not the same they don't mean much.

Obviously a bullet with a higher BC will hold its energy and not drop as much at longer range.
Also a bullet sighted in at 2.5" at 100 yards will not drop at long range as much as a bullet sighted in at 2" high at 100 yards.

If you are going to post comparisons then compare apples to apples and the data will be much more interesting.

I agree with what most have said here. The magnum "bigger is better craze" makes it a tough proposition to sell rounds like the 35 Whelen to other than the more experienced hunters who know better than to be caught up in the magnum craze.
I think it is also perceived as being "old fashioned" by many of the newer hunter to the sport.

Oldsarge:

The 35 whelen could just as easily be called "Elmer" Reading Elmer Keith introduced me to the 35 Whelen and led me to purchase my Remington in that caliber back in the early 90s.

Oldsarge---

You should post a condom alert before posting such a thing!!

I think I leaked a little at the Roberts/Whelen combo.....that's the PERFECT North American pair......unless it was 250-3000 (designed by Newton) and the Whelen. That would take the 7x57 ancestor out of the picture.....
Hey! A 22 K-Hornet would fit in that group pretty well, too.

Ain't it FUN to think of perfect guns?