Customer bought a brand new S.C.-made Model 70 Deluxe in .270 Win. When he shot it with Winchester factory ammo, he got flattened, cratered primers. Examining the bolt face, it was not machined flat and smooth, but instead had a sandblasted appearance and the edges of the hole for the firing pin were rounded. My store sent the rifle back to Winchester for repair, and they said they performed "minor repairs." Customer shot the rifle again with Winchester factory ammo and again got cratered, flattened primers. Phone call to Winchester and they said sorry, but the rifle was within factory tolerances and they would not repair it further.

If you are considering a new FN Model 70, examine it very, very carefully. Better yet, buy another brand. I sure lost my interest in a Model 70 I was looking at.

Bill/Oregon-

thanks for the heads up!

Could be that the ammo is the problem eh?
Was the bolt face up to spec after the trip back to Winchester?

byf42: I hate it when American-made stuff turns out to be shit. I really do.

Flattened and cratered primers are not caused by a rough bolt face, it was the ammo; either the primers themselves (some lots can be soft and flatten easier) or excessive pressure. That does not mean the rifle is "shit".

It certainly would seem prudent to at least try anouther batch/brand of ammo before declaring that it's a problem with the rifle.

He may have a gun with smaller dimensions but still in spec causing higher pressures.

I have found most mid-range (price wise) Winchester ammo to be way too hot especially with WSM cartridges. I can't shoot it without having a really stiff bolt throw in my 300WSM. Cheap Winchester and Federal stuff shoots just fine however.

That said he may have a hot lot of ammo. I'd try a different brand of similar ammo just to make sure.

I saw the bolt face myself. We pulled the bolts from four other brand new Model 70s and compared them. The others were properly machined, smooth, flat and the edge of the firing pin hole sharp and tight. The firing pin hole in the problem rifle was sloppy and the edges rounded, giving the primers room to flow. When you see this in an old black powder cartridge gun such as a Martini, you bush the pin.
This particular rifle is a piece of shit in a bright red box, and Winchester will not make it right. The screwed owner now must see if some smith somewhere is willing to bush the pin in the head of a brand new Model 70 bolt.
It is possible that bad ammo is contributing to this perfect storm of Winchester-branded incompetence, though.

Not the rifle. Have had a rash of that happining with lot's of rifles and calibers lately. Particularly with the WSM's. I have an idea it may be the ammo makers are trying to outdo everyone with higher velocities and their new fandangeled powders. . The first I've seen was the .243 WSm. Could not even open the bolt without the help of a 2x4! That was in a Browning. I bet if you handload it correctly, all will be fine.

This is a conventional .270, by the way, not a WSM.

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:
Flattened and cratered primers are not caused by a rough bolt face, it was the ammo; either the primers themselves (some lots can be soft and flatten easier) or excessive pressure. That does not mean the rifle is "shit".

Agreed.

I would not speculate as to the problem as you describe, but I would insist, yes insist, that Win. factory take back the rifle and examine carefully and would initiate this return authorization with certified letter stating that you want it examined. By the way, show copy of letter to your attorney's office as well and be sure and mention that you do not consider the rifle to be "safe" to shoot as is.
Such action usually rachets up the ladder to a different decision maker and would be very surprised that it did not get their attention and positive action taken.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I saw the bolt face myself. We pulled the bolts from four other brand new Model 70s and compared them. The others were properly machined, smooth, flat and the edge of the firing pin hole sharp and tight. The firing pin hole in the problem rifle was sloppy and the edges rounded, giving the primers room to flow. When you see this in an old black powder cartridge gun such as a Martini, you bush the pin.
This particular rifle is a piece of shit in a bright red box, and Winchester will not make it right. The screwed owner now must see if some smith somewhere is willing to bush the pin in the head of a brand new Model 70 bolt.
It is possible that bad ammo is contributing to this perfect storm of Winchester-branded incompetence, though.

Can you please post photos!!!!

Flattened primers like that can also indicate an excessive headspace condition. A trip to a local gunsmith would verify or rule this out.

Flattened primers is one thing.

He is getting cratered primers.

Cratering can be caused by a rounded firing pin hole or an excessively large firing pin hole.

The firing pin hole edges need to be sharp and the hole size needs to be correct.

I would contact Winchester and tell them you are very happy with the rifle and you don't want a new rifle. Tell them the firing pin hole in the bolt face is oversized and the primers are cratering. Tell them you want a new bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I saw the bolt face myself. We pulled the bolts from four other brand new Model 70s and compared them. The others were properly machined, smooth, flat and the edge of the firing pin hole sharp and tight. The firing pin hole in the problem rifle was sloppy and the edges rounded, giving the primers room to flow. When you see this in an old black powder cartridge gun such as a Martini, you bush the pin.

Bill,
Sounds like Winchester owes the rifle owner a new bolt to me..
If there is a Winchester warranty repair "smith" close by I would have him look at for a second opinion..
Then I would send it back to Winchester for the second time as MFD suggested..

Bill/Oregon-

so do I brother.. so do I.

As for the rifle, obviously, the customer is unhappy. Rather than replacing the bolt, or agreeing to look at the rifle again, its the typical "oh well, go screw yourself" attitude. Winchester's customer service sucked when they were in New Haven,Conn. and it looks like their arrogance and lack of concern over the customer is carried over to South Carolina. Oh well, there goes the M-70 that I was considering getting. Thanks Bill, for the post.

I've always found that I can get what I want by paying attention to 4 critical things.

1. Be nice and don't act like somebody owes you something be nice! Many people can't do this and prefer to bitch and make the problem seem insurmountable instead of work towards resolution.
2.persistence
3.persistence
4.persistence

I hardly ever fail at negotiations whether business or personnal using this method. Like I said most people can't master #1 so when they skip to #2,3,4 they just sound like someone that needs to be ignored and you will be. Clearly state the problem, be nice, clearly state your needed fix, be nice, and clearly state what will make you happy, be nice. Win win every time!

send it back .. remind them of the internet ... tell them your LAWYER thinks its unsafe

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
I've always found that I can get what I want by paying attention to 4 critical things.

1. Be nice and don't act like somebody owes you something be nice! Many people can't do this and prefer to bitch and make the problem seem insurmountable instead of work towards resolution.
2.persistence
3.persistence
4.persistence

I hardly ever fail at negotiations whether business or personnal using this method. Like I said most people can't master #1 so when they skip to #2,3,4 they just sound like someone that needs to be ignored and you will be. Clearly state the problem, be nice, clearly state your needed fix, be nice, and clearly state what will make you happy, be nice. Win win every time!

+1

Money paid to a company is not a license to abuse people because they happen to work there. People are people. Treat them with respect and they will treat you with respect. Be happy if possible. If you can't be happy be nice on the phone or in email's. If you can't be nice be at least pleasant.

Demanding service is not going to get a person anything, especially if mixed with arrogance, pride or rebellion.

Guys, the rifle is not mine. I wish I had the excellent macro photos the owner took of the bolt face that he included with spent cases and the rifle when it was returned to Winchester. When the rifle came back to the customer, very little had been done to it -- and virtually nothing to the rounded firing pin hole in the bolt. The customer shot the rifle with virtually the same cratering as before. When our store called Winchester directly to ask how this was possible, the customer service guy said he would speak directly to the "master gunsmith" who had examined the returned rifle, and call us back. He did indeed call us back, and told us that he was sorry, but the "master gunsmith" said the rifle was within specs and there was nothing more Winchester cared to do about it.

This does not mean the current Model 70s are all junk. It just means, as I said in my first post, that if you are looking at one to buy, go over it with a magnifying glass because if there are issues, Winchester/FN may choose not to make them right.

Winchester did the same thing in 1964. Remington gets the hot idea to bevel their bolt, and Winchester has to meet the competition. You need to be talking to the marketing idiots, not the Master Gunmith, who is probably a finance major.

Someone needs to go over the master gunsmith's head on this one. I'd wouldn't stop until I had gone all the way to the top. (It's that persistence word again)

Thank you posting this information. That is a customer they have now lost in the UK.

I can accept the odd "Friday gun" but poor customer service when a fault is discovered is inexcusable.

Good customer service would have been to have offered you an exchange on the rifle. Or to have fired in SC ammunition of the "master gunsmiths" choice and returned those fired cases to you.

In fact that they did not (unless you have omitted this) fire their own ammunition in it and send those fired cases back to show there was no cratering in their ammunition is a poor response.

It is the first or second thing I would have done. Try and reproduce the problem in the factory and if it does not happen it is the customer's ammunition at fault and not the rifle.

first problem I have heard of on the new guns

Dear Bill:

Unfortunately, your problem with Winchester is not confined to this decade nor that company.

It took me seven months of hard headed, no prisoners taken as mentioned above "persistance" to make Colt buy back a really dangerously defective Python in 1983. Of course the defects were worse after it originally was returned to the factory for going off by itself, because the sear was not finished correctly at the factory.

Then the out of time cylinder, then the seven pound trigger pull . . .

Make up your mind what you expect from Winchester, and then write to the President with your demands.

Don't quit.

I didn't, and I still remember the payment: $487.00 check payable to me, and I had won.

That was my last Colt.

Funny thing was, I had a small problem with a Smith and Wesson 586 in 357 Magnum, a few years later which I sent back for warranty repair. It came back with a complete trigger job that was sensational.

Guess which revolvers I own now.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

My S.C. FN Model 70 in 7-08 is not junk, by a long stretch.
I'd be interested in hearing what the people at FN S.C. have to say about the issue. By now, I'd think the rifle owner should have made contact with them...???
Closure is what I'm interested in.

Don

I guess the lesson to be learned is that regardless of the brand (we hear folks bitching about all of them in here), go over the rifle with a fine toothed comb BEFORE you buy it. Even on a special order. I'll give the guy some front money on a special order (if I must) but he ain't getting it all until I've had the rifle in my hands.

quote:

Such action usually rachets up the ladder to a different decision maker and would be very surprised that it did not get their attention and positive action taken.

I would think that the bad PR in threads like this would get their attention. If this were a Savage I'll bet the customer would have been made happy already, regardless of any technical truths.

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:

quote:

Such action usually rachets up the ladder to a different decision maker and would be very surprised that it did not get their attention and positive action taken.

I would think that the bad PR in threads like this would get their attention. If this were a Savage I'll bet the customer would have been made happy already, regardless of any technical truths.

And that's why all but three of my rifles are Savage.

Bill-

Thank you for your post. I think I may have read it as intended...not that all SC Winchesters are "junque", but that the corporate attitude towards its customers is still just as bad as it was when the same owners operated the same company in New Haven.

It is fairly common in modern businesses to try to solve internal executive incompetence problems by dismissing the rank and file workers, and moving operations to a new site.

Usually that does not work well for long.

Typically the problem has been that the previous work site did not produce goods of a quality and at a cost which either made customers happy or allowed the company to turn a profit. So, they move the "plant", get rid of the unionized former workers, invest stockhoilders' money in a new plant and equipment, and assume everything will work out better as a result.

Wrong! Bad products, cantankerous unions, poor customer relations, too high costs of operation are usually each the fault of the very top levels of management.

Management must organize the company to hire skilled employees, show them what is expected in the products they make, train them to reach that level of production, and treat them fairly enough that they love their jobs and their workplace.

For the enterprise to succeed by other than blind luck, the very highest corporate executives must in general show respect and fondness for the business (in this case producing good guns) they have chosen to compete in.

IF the owners simply see their operation as a labor mill where folks grind out products ASAP at the cheapest possible cost, and do not understand that SATISFIED, REPEAT customers are the key to long term profits, failure is in the cards. Usually sooner than later.

But, unfortunately, when production sites are moved, top manqgement seldom looks at its own failures at the old site.

They take their old upper & middle-level managers along with them to the new site. There the strictly "quick money"-oriented top management, and the middle managers they have made in their own image, quickly get back to the old grind of failing their customers. (And employees, stockholders, and even themselves.)

Sad to hear that may have also happened at Winchester/Browning. Deja vu all over again.

Anyway, thanks for the "caveat emptor".

AC:

quote:

... and treat them fairly enough that they love their jobs and their workplace.

Wow, what a concept!

I also would like to see what happens if different ammo is tried. If the problem continues then it would seem to eliminate blaming the ammo and then Win would have to step up to the plate. If not, then they may need to hear from some of us.

I contacted Browning once about my 270 A-Bolt where the stock was touching the barrel. It was supposed to be free floated. They sent me a call tag without hesitation and sent it back fixed in a short time frame.

Wonder how come Sturm, Ruger & Co. has (largely) avoided these problems all this time. Think it might be tht Bill Ruger simply would not countenance incompetence or poor customer service, and inculcated that attitude in his successors?

Lead from the top, this business and all others. The guy that signs the paychecks is entitled to the blame or the praise.

Bill/Oregon

You say the customer purchased that rifle from your store (or the store you work for).

Why not just give him a new rifle to make him happy. the goodwill you would get from it would probably be worth a lot more than the $500 or so it cost you to take the gun back. and then, since you are a dealer, get a new bolt for it and sell it as a used gun. All in all I bet you don't lose much, and you gain a good customer for life.

Another thing you could do is send them (Winchester) a link to this Thread, and ask them if they want to get showed up by Marlin.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3221043/m/5771081621

For everyone else. to make a decision to purchase or not pruchase a particular brand of product based on what you have heard about 1 item seems a bit rash, doesn't it? As one poster said, just be a bit more careful inspecting the particular rifle you plan to purchase before you purchase it. Just as a new car dealer will allow you to take a car out for a 25 mile test drive, I would assume that any dealer than wants your business would be (should be) happy to fire the weapon and give you a case to examine. If not, take your business elsewhere.

I shoot a new Model 70 Winchester from South Carolina, a .270 WSM in Featherweight Deluxe. It is a beautiful rifle that shoots lights out. ----- If the problem with the new rifle is not the ammo and you don't have a gunsmith that can figure out the problem in 5 minutes, you need to get out of the serious shooting business. After the gunsmith looks at the rifle and you have information for Winchester and they don't fix it, let the smithy do his work and chalk it up to experience. Good shooting.

It must be that non-union labor they're using to build these rifles!


Terry

I recently purchased a Browning BL 22 (lever action .22). It sometimes had feeding problems but very slight. I took it to a dealer (I did not buy from this guy) and he shipped it to Browning/Winchester and they replaced the action no questions asked.

I like their customer service based on this one incident.

On the issue of Ruger's, I have owned 2 ruger .22 pistols and one 77/22 bolt action .22. All three did not eject or feed consistently. A gunsmith could not get them to work - so I got rid of them. All of that to say - no gun company is immune from problems.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
It must be that non-union labor they're using to build these rifles!


Terry

Sorry to hear that. I am a big Mod. 70 fan because I can't afford Dakota rifles. I also lost interest in them when they got rid of the worlds best big game hunting trigger on their new Mod. 70's. So I will buy the old worn out and used ones with the claw extractor when ever I see one I can't live with out.