Took out the 270 Winchester this afternoon loaded with 130gr TTSX and shot a nice sized doe, I would say 125lbs or so. Shot was about 80 yards and the deer was at a slight angle facing me on her left side. She ran about 30 yards from POI, how I don't understand. But when I got down to the dirty work of cleaning,the damage of the entry wound was massive for a TTSX, alot of tissue destruction, not what I was expecting, as judging from previous kills with the 140ttsx 7mm. See the pics, there was a small exit on the far side but I do not believe it was the entire bullet. This thing did worse damage than a ballistic tip. The deer was more broadside but at a slight angle as I stated previously, this may have contributed to the damage. Not sure on this one, what do some of you think?

Left side entry



Right side exit

II think you hit bone and probably lost a petal or two. Even hitting bone I have not seen damage like that from an x bullet before.

WOW I have never seen a TTSX do THAT to a deer. My brother runs 130's out of his 30-06 and they don't look like that.

Same thing I said, i believe it may have clipped the should blade, but still I have never seen one come apart and blow up like this one did. Loads were 3050fps at muzzle (chrony), not sure on the impact velocity. Probably around 28-2850.

I've taken animals with TSX and TTSX for almost 25 from high velocity calibres such as 270 Wby 7mm mags ( Rem,Wby & STW, 300 mags up to 300 Rum and the 340 Wby. I have never seen an entrance wound like that from any TSX/TTSX bullet let alone damage like that. That sure looks like the damage from a cup and core bullet. I'm thinking maybe a cup and core bullet got mixed in with the TTSX bullets when they were loaded or maybe a cup/core loaded round left in the pocket of your hunting jacket inadvertently was loaded into the rifle.???????

The photographs are a bit dark but I will venture that what is shown here is not direct bullet damage but after shot artefact caused by bleeding into tissue planes.
ie. "Bloodshot meat"

What is seen here is the effects of a intact and functioning blood pressure.

If it were a war wound in a human and the surgeon would make the mistake of thinking all that dark tissue is damage and cut it away the surgery would in fact be more injurious than the bullet wound itself.

Very much agree with Alf, though it appears there was some bone fragment secondary missile effect.

IME, the best way to avoid bloodshot edible meat with non-CNS hits is to completely avoid limb bones and muscles.

"She ran about 30 yards from POI, how I don't understand." - is a clue. Next in importance is lowering blood pressure as fast as possible (heart shot). Alot of blood can travel through tissue in 10 seconds. Even when animal is down BP may not yet be zero. If you center the pump BP goes to zero faster b/c the larger proximal pipes have greater capacitance.

I'm less certain of this third observation, but I suspect bigger entrance/exit holes make better blood pressure vents. And this may be at least partly why big bore shooters so often claim minimal meat damage.

None of this is absolute, though.

What is meant by an intact blood pressure is that if the same shot were to be made on the same animal after its demise you would not see the same effect because there would be no extravasation of blood. This is basic forensics science 101.

My guess is the bullet hit a tree limb before it hit the deer.

WOW!

I haven't seen anything like that in quite awhile. The last one I saw like that was from a 145 gr ESP Raptor from my 300 Win Mag.

Did that with an X bullet out of my 300RUM on a similar sized deer several years ago. Velocity is not your friend. Had to throw away an entire shoulder.

To the extent velocity increases wound channel it will directly increase meat loss. Again, placement largely mitigates against this cause.

But this is not how most edible meat becomes bloodshot.

The pic is not so much the result of excess velocity as it is the result of extravasation of blood still under pressure. To the extent high-vel rounds reduce BP (ie., kill) quicker they result in less extravasation.

The memorable cases of bloodshot meat I have caused were the result of a 1300 fps BRI sabot slug, a .22-250 with impact velocities only slightly greater than many taken with a .300 WBY, and one very poor placement with a .300.

Alf gives the extreme example of a carcass to make a point. Bring BP to zero (ie., kill the beast) faster and you will get less bloodshot meat.

Lets not twist the story around guys, there were no limbs, trucks or any obstacles in the way. This was a direct line shot about 80yds with a 270 130gr TTSX. I thought the X bullets were designed to stay together but not on this one. And yes it was a TTSX nothing else thats the only round I use in 270 win.

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She ran about 30 yards from POI

.... with the heart pounding and lungs wheezing all the way.

What ALF said:

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What is seen here is the effects of a intact and functioning blood pressure.

I hit a 1" diameter limb 10 yards or so in front of gemsbok's shoulder with a 300 grain TSX and it went in making an oblong hole without any excess damage.

Not a controlled test, just an observation.

In the first picture you can see a hamburger effect and that is what a TTSX or any monolithic normally does.

In your case because of some reason you got the blood shot effect that happens from time to time with most bullets to one degree or another such as Alf explains. Had you hit a limb or whatever your would normally have particles of that limb amongst the damage therefore I don't belive that is the problem..It just happens and the best way to prevent it is to use a heavier bullet at slower velocity and expect the animal to make a run of 100 yard or better but you will have a large exit as a rule and a blood trail that's easy to follow..Your is the kind of wound one expects from a 220 Swift or perhaps 22-250 and not desirable..Contact with bone with a hi vel bullet is condusive to this sort of wound, and it doesn't take much bone to create such a wound...Loading down for those little whitetail is the answer, a 150 gr. cup and core at 2400 to 2500 FPS is my answer to the smaller Central Texas whitetail normally shot from a stand to a feeder at about 100 yards. Also that kind or damage works great with a high neck shot at 80 yards as even a bit off tears the off to a point of instant death.

Try a 150 gr. bullet at 2600 to 2700 FPS in your 270. I have used that with good results in my 270. My normal Texas 125 lb. deer rifle is the 250-3000 with a 100 gr. bullet at 2600 FPS, about perfect. In So.Texas where bucks get much larger I use the same bullet at 3000 FPS or a 270 or 30-06 with one of the mid weight, Noslers.

When walking them up and you can bet your best shot offering is going South and the 150 Nolser at 2800 is my whitetail choice as the texas heart shot is deadly, but you must have enough gun to pass through lengthwise under all conditions.

Just some suggestions to what may happen on ocassion with your choice of caliber and bullet weight.

Think I'm going to go back with the old 130gr Hornady Spire points, never had a failure and half the price of the Barnes.

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Lets not twist the story around guys, there were no limbs, trucks or any obstacles in the way. This was a direct line shot about 80yds with a 270 130gr TTSX. I thought the X bullets were designed to stay together but not on this one. And yes it was a TTSX nothing else thats the only round I use in 270 win.

Just an observation here, nothing more. I have seen similar such destruction over the years. One case in particular was with a smaller doe at about the same distance that a former hunting companion shot.

He was using a .300 Win Mag and factory loaded 150 or 180 grain Winchester ammo with the highly touted Black Talon bullets. Admittedly he made a bad shot, hitting the doe about 8 inches or so behind the shoulders in the spine. The deer dropped on the spot, basically because the bullet took out about 5 pounds of meat and spine. The doe was almost literally cut in half.

My guess is it is a case of the bullet hitting something at too short a range, especially something as lightly built as a 90 to 100 pound white tail doe.

I have been using Barnes bullets since 1995, started with the "X" Flat Base and now am having to switch over to the TSX, I have a phobia against "Tipped" bullets. I like the performance I have been getting.

As with any thing else in human life/activity, sometimes things happen that can not be readily explained. That is the case in this situation in my opinion. The bullet produced an undesired effect for the hunter. All of us have had similar occurrences over the years, and rarely can we factually explain what happened, so we guess.

Whatever caused the results, they were not the results that were wanted/expected, and since the only component the shooter had that made contact with the target was the bullet, that is the first thing that should be looked at being changed.

Weird things happen with deer and bullets. Shot a blacktail on Kodiak Island with the same bullet and caliber. Deer was walking slowly about 100 yards away and I pulled the trigger and he ran about 15 yards and fell dead. When I got to the deer it looked like someone turned on a hose and sprayed blood everywhere. Further inspection revealed he was hit in the right hindquarter (aimed for the lungs). Back tracked to where he was standing when I shot and discovered I hit an alder branch about 1 inch in diameter about 10 yards before the deer. Both hams were total mush.

We see what we think we see ! There is nothing magic, nothing unexplained , all is explained in nature.

This is not bullet failure, it is not the result of a bullet that encountered a on its way to the target

This is a typical vital wound. ie the effects of wounding when the animal was still alive when it was shot.

This what high velocity small bore projectile wound look like.

The mistake made and this is not uncommon is to look at the bleeding and the apparent size of the hole in the muscle and bone after death and think that was the result of contact with the bullet itself, or perhaps some errant behaviour of the it is not !

Some here who report on bullet behaviour go so far as to shoot bullets into dead elephant and then report of the wounds they see. Well sadly their observations have to be tempered with the fact that there is a huge difference it the appearance of wounds created in living animals ( vital wounds) and wounds created in dead animals.

My guess the bullet fragmented on impact with heavy bone which also fragmented and pushed forwarded a short distance (damaged stopped internally as shown by exit wound)causing extensive flesh damage followed by extensive hemorrhage in surrounding tissue.
I once shot a whitetail buck on the run at about 10yards which dropped him in a icy swamp the deer was frantically trying to get up but was slipping on the broken ice. Not wanting the animal to suffer nor waste any meat I ran up and pointed the muzzle of my 30-06 a foot or so from his neck and fired. The deer literally was flipped head over tail and laid back out on solid ice.
When I skinned him out there was an area in his neck about the size of a soccer ball ball that was ground up blood shot and no exit wound. The first shot hit him just behind the front shoulder and exited out the rib cage, minimal damage to surrounding tissue.

I was using 165 grain hornady spire point at about 2650 fps, same bullet pretty much point blank range and the tissue damage damage was unbelievable.....the finishing bullet impacted the neck bone and most if not all the damage had to be from the bone fragmentation. The bullet was never found so it disintegrated on impact

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Weird things happen with deer and bullets.

Best explanation going. In the field results do not always live up to advertised expectations.

That is amazing! I would say it actually has nothing to do with the bullet specifically. It has more to do with the physiology of that particular animal and velocity. do you have apples or other other food sources that may have fermented in your area?

I can see where the corner of the shoulder being clipped would act like a knife, cutting and grinding with every step taken. Some of this entry could be the result from that, with that stated if you think about it, the deer ran 30-40yds into thick brush that is several steps to take with fragmented bones grinding. So maybe this makes more sense than the bullet coming apart?

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Originally posted by hammer2506:
Same thing I said, i believe it may have clipped the should blade, but still I have never seen one come apart and blow up like this one did.
Loads were 3050fps at muzzle (chrony), not sure on the impact velocity. Probably around 28-2850.

I recall using .300WBy with first release 180gn ballistic-tips, and .270WBY 130 BT, both with impact vel. over 3000fps,
40% weight retention,(other 60% disintegrated)
but Not as extensively blood shot result as you show with your lower vel. and tougher ttsx.

So I would not be inclined to blame the Barnes for what you 'see'.

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Originally posted by ALF:
Some here who report on bullet behaviour go so far as to shoot bullets into dead elephant and then report of the wounds they see.
Well sadly their observations have to be tempered with the fact that there is a huge difference it the appearance of wounds created
in living animals ( vital wounds) and wounds created in dead animals.

no worse that those who shoot wet telephone books with their DG rifle, trying to impress viewers with the amount & size
of the clumped-up wad of paper thrust out on exit and resulting 'wound channel'...some even calling it a measure of lethality.
_
Testing bullets in layers of paper statically saturated in a Newtonian fluid such as water, is an extremely poor model to use
if trying to indicate what that same rifle projectile does when it travels through live tissue flowing with Non-Newtonian blood.

"cutting" "grinding" "hamburger meat" What else can we ascribe to bullets and what they do ?

Bullets do two things only ! ( well a little more but the added effects don't do damage)

They crush and they push tissue aside. That's it! No more no less !

There is nothing magical or mystical about it!

The magical come in when people start thinking things up that physically do not exist.

The crush is defined as that part of the target that is in direct contact with the bullet or it's parts, the pushing aside part of the equation comes from the tissue that is radially pushed aside from the passing bullet.

Dependent on the constitutive mechanical behaviour of the target this pushing aside may or may not cause damage.

But now we have an added problem in observing the wounds we see after the shot and it's called vital reactions in the wound.

These are natural occurring physiological reactions, nothing odd or strange or magical. And this is nothing new at all , it took a psychiatrist by the name of Henri Legrande Du Saulle to describe the changes seen in vital wounds around 1874 ? His original scheme though modified is still used today.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

They crush and they push tissue aside. That's it! No more no less !

I never really bought into the exaggerated claim by some that the soft torn edges of expanded copper petals on a BarnesX 'cut like a razor'.

Pulverise & displace, have been the words that usually came to my mind for what hunting bullets do to tissue as they advance through the target,
in order to clear a path. However, there's no doubt that a monometal can clear a path further than say a bonded A-Frame or Woodliegh.
I am inclined to put that down partly to, often the lower parachute effect(less frontal area) of the monomental.......and why Failsafes
were one of my favourite bullets.
My failsafes in 30cal & .338cal had no where near the frontal of other brand premiums, but killed thing impressively stone dead just the same.
[even out to 400yd where they were at minimal expansion].... even at that distance the .338cal FS bullet went sailing straight through!!
It just further cemented in my mind the primary importance of shot placement, rather than the thinking that extra bore size is the answer to
ones problems.


Furthermore, ballistic gel testing by Barnes has demonstrated that the gel block can be permanently split on multiple sides,
by the passing bullet. ^ How this is supposed to relate to what a BarnesX actually does to a variety of game in the field, I don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

The crush is defined as that part of the target that is in direct contact with the bullet or it's parts, the pushing aside part of the equation comes from the tissue that is radially pushed aside from the passing bullet.

ALF - how would you equate these with the descriptions of what causes permanent and temporary wound channels (i.e. crushing and pushing)? Seems to be the effect of the same description. I'm watching this discussion with interest; some great stuff here.

Permanent cavity in ballistics speak is defined as that part of the wound that is caused by the direct contact of the target medium by the bullet and its parts. ( it does not infer that it is the permanent hole seen in certain targets)

The diameter of the PC as a rule is smaller or equal to the diamater of the projectile causing the damage ( because of the elastic nature of the target) Heulke who studied bone penetration by shooting steel shot into fresh cadaveric human bones showed that even in bone the measured PC was smaller than the passing projectile.

The temporary wound channel is that part of the wound that is caused by the radial displacement of the target tissue as it is pushed aside by the projectile. This is the most studied phenomenon in wound ballistics.

Dependent on the mechanical properties of the target this portion may or may not show damage after the bullet has passed. The structure and density of the tissue determine what may happen if energy is deposited to the target.

The structure of target is as important or more so than the bullet when looking at wounding phenomena.

The best way to show this would be look at water.

Water can be found in 3 phase of matter. Solid as in ice, a fluid or as a gas ( ie in air)

If we shoot a bullet into ice the damage follows a very interesting pattern and leaves us with a very specific result. The ice fractures and fragments. The energy deposit and mechanics of ice penetration a study all to itself. ( From a military perspective ice penetration by munitions is extremely well researched)

Fire the same bullet with the same impact energy, momentum, velocity etc into a pool of water and there is no cavity left behind , no "wound" so to speak, only the temperature of the water has risen and the potential energy of the body of water has gone up commensurate with the volume of the bullet lying at the bottom of the pool displacing the water.

This shows up the limitations in looking at wound ballistics from the bullet side only,

Velocity, momentum, kinetic energy, construction all are meaningless numbers unless the target is defined !


So this little detail about the state and structure of the target becomes very important.

The most commonly made mistake made is that people believe that because muscle is water rich it behaves like water, it does not. Tissues are all water rich even bone, Yes bone has basically the same water content as muscle. But they are in fact solids. They behave like solids albeit soft solids in some instances.

They all support shear !

Radial cracks in ballistics gelatine.

Ballistics gelatine as a material is hydrocolloid made up of a specific solution of animal protein dissolved into water and then cooled down to a specific temperature so this it mimics one aspect of human muscle and that is the mass density of muscle. It attains weak structure when cooled down sufficiently.

This is very important to understand because when it is used in simulation only certain behaviours compared show similitude to scenarios where muscle is penetrated by a bullet.

When cooled ballistics gelatine is subjected to deforming stresses it may crack ( fracture).

Muscle and organs like liver may do this as well ( radial tearing) however there is no similitude between the radial tearing in muscle and that seen in Gelatine.

The basic mechanical properties of muscle vs gelatine preclude any such comparison.

There have been studies that have tried to measure and link the extent of tearing in gelatine to that of muscle or have tried to equate the extent of tearing to the amount of energy deposited to the gelatine. They are not valid.

Interesting info, but hasn't this gone far beyond the OP's intent concerning whether or not the bullet that was used seems to have caused considerably more damage to the target than expected?

Someone touched on the issue of wet stacked paper.

Stacked Paper as a structural barrier requires some scrutiny.

To make it simple:

We put a bowl of water down, a wetted telephone directory and slab go steak and using a finger or a sharpened dowel stick try and penetrate each structure using the same velocity and amount of pressure.

There is a very obvious difference. You have no problem penetrating the water, the steak wil have way more resistance and the telephone directory will be impenetrable, not with a finger at least and minimally so with the dowel stick.

Now try a punch paper with a regular paper punch.

One sheet no problem, two sheets add more and more and soon we find that even this simple mundane act becomes a problem. What is more the paper punch delivers stack of compressed confetti.

The physics and engineering required to punch hole through stacks of paper becomes an issue all with it's now problems. Stacked paper from a structural point of view is a very difficult and complex exercise to model.

Its akin to try and model from a physics perspective the failure of Kevlar.

For anyone to try and equate stacked wet paper to anything but stacked wet paper is a waste of time.

quote:

The diameter of the PC as a rule is smaller or equal to the diamater of the projectile smaller or equal to the diamater of the projectile causing the damage (because of the elastic nature of the target) Heulke who studied bone penetration by shooting steel shot into fresh cadaveric human bones showed that even in bone the measured PC was smaller than the passing projectile.

This is something that most hunters struggle to get a handle on as to the real size of the wound that was formed. Many believe that the wound is bigger than the diameter of the bullet even though it appears not be the case according to Heuke.

How a pure tissue wound gets to be smaller than a bullet's diameter would be perplexing to most. This is the reason why we use expanding bullets rather than FMJ bullets for hunting so we can induce a bigger/wider permanent wound tract.

Santa Claus

Was the deer killed?

Were the results what the hunter wanted?

End of story.

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End of story.

No, the end of the story is "and then it ran away". That's the standard ending for an animal that gets shot with a Barnes and not spined or had its front wheels shot off.

I have been hunting for a day or two, and have had stuff drop dead right there and had stuff run for a while.

Blaming a particular bullet/caliber/powder charge/rifle/scope etc. etc. etc. is pure Bull Shit.

I have been using Barnes Bullets since 1995 and just like any other bullet from any other manufacturer.

It is the shit head pulling the trigger that is the weak link, EVERY FUCKING TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a Good Evening and a Happy New Year.

I think I made a great shot! Results deer on the table.

CHC, I've killed animals numbering into the many hundreds with TSXs, well over 1000 total and and believe me the pattern is very clear. I went so far as to compare them directly on shoots where we were killing around 50 per day.

And a happy new year to you too. Even shitheads can have a happy new year.

Barnes bullets are usually not given the credit for quick powerful expansion. I think Barnes own video's show it to be ~ an inch. This displaced tissue moves laterally so fast that it creates a shock wave that would " blow up" the blood vessels in the area. I believe the ballistic tests shown in Barnes own video's show it quite well. The blow up or hydraulic shock created bursts blood vessels, bruises or blood shots meat. and in general just raises hell.
I shot a large bodied buck very close range using a 338 win and a 210g TSX. The bullet entered low in the chest and exited in front of the off side shoulder. This was quite a drastic up hill shot. When we pulled the skin off, the meat in the on side shoulder was blood shot. There was no wound channel, no penetration by anything on the close side of the deer. Hydraulic shock did it all. I'v seen the same type destruction from a 300 Wby. and a 150g TSX on a spike elk. These bullets don't come apart but the physical damage they do is terrific. I think they work just like they should, and have on everything I've been around that was shot with them. DW

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and and believe me the pattern is very clear

Happy New year to you and yours, but I have been using Barnes bullets for a little while and if one had ever gave me that type of performance, I would have stopped using them, IMMEDIATELY!

The amount of game you have killed or claim to have killed is irrelevant. I have never had a Barnes bullet produce that type of results and I have been using them for a while now.