In my previous post about the perfect deer rifle, alot of you guys picked the 06 over my beloved 708, I'm just wondering, why? I've got nothing against the 06, got one, excellent round, love to reload for it, cause I know what it likes for powders and such. But.....

Lets take the 7mm 154gr. Hornady SP against the .308 150gr.

Now lets start the 7mm at 2700fps and the .308 at 2900 fps.

154gr. 7mm
Velocity(fps) 2700 2484 2280 2088 1908 1739
Energy 2493 2110 1778 1491 1245 1035
Muz 100 200 300 400 500
150gr. .308
2900 2634 2384 2152 1935 1735
2802 2312 1894 1542 1248 1003

As you can see, at the sane distances(under 300yds.) both have plenty of energy and velocity for a deer cartridge. At 400 yds., they're virtually identical, at 500 the 7mm takes over, but still they're both virtually identical, the only difference is the 06 bullet drops -23.9" at 400yds. with a 200yd zero, and the 7mm drops -26.5", not a huge difference.

Now the fact the 06 burns more powder, kicks more, 99 years old, yada, yada doesn't make it a good pick in my book for an ideal "deer" round. Though, it would be my pick for the ideal Elk rifle. So thats my arguement why the 708 is a "Perfect deer rifle". In other words, It'll do everything the 06 does in a shorter action, shorter case, etc. Sorry about beating that dead horse . Jay.

Jay,

Don't compare apples and oranges. IF your using a 154 gr 7mm you need to compare it to a 165 gr 30 cal for a straight across comparison.

Factor in:

30-06 SPRING. (7.62X63MM) SIERRA GAMEKING BTSP

PREMIUM VITAL*SHOK®

Federal Load No. P3006D
Factory Primer No. 210
30-06 Spring. (7.62x63mm)
Caliber 165 / 10.69
Sierra GameKing BTSP

Long Range
0 2872
100 1.8 2488
200 0.0 2145
300 7.8 1841
400 22.5 1571
500 45.1 1333

Also my Hornady Fourth addition shows max loads for the 7mm-08 and 154 gr gr bullets @ 2500 FPS.

The Federal 150 gr 7mm-08 is 2650 fps.

Your comparison doesn't hold water with these numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
Sorry about beating that dead horse . Jay.

Horse is dead. There isn't any difference between 270 cal - 7mm - through 30 cal
that a deer could tell

None of these really kick.

Put simply to choose the ideal setup for your deer hunting

1st step
What bullet best suits your hunting -long range - thin skinned - brush cuttin?

2nd step
What rifle can you afford that best suits your hunting and add scope to this category

3rd step (a)
Choose from the available calibres or just pick you fav it makes no difference


3rd step (b)
If you think you are special choose a special claibre. If you like splitting hairs choose the calibre that matches the best ballistic coefficient for the bullet you have chosen and the case capacity to use it at the ranges you want.


There is no perfect calibre or bullet!!!!
I choose a 145gn soft nose bullet for use out to 350m.
The setup that delivers that is my 'perfect' rifle.

The above numbers are still not a reason to trade off that rifle, the 7mm-08 is still a fine cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:
Jay,

Don't compare apples and oranges. IF your using a 154 gr 7mm you need to compare it to a 165 gr 30 cal for a straight across comparison.

I agree. If you are going to use a medium wt. bullet per caliber, you should use it across the board. I also prefer a 165-168 grain bullet in my .06 or bigger. In fact, I've never used a 150 in my .06. I prefer the 150 in a 308.

Either way, a properly placed GOOD bullet from either will sure kill a deer at 300 yards. Only difference is the one hit by my .06 will hit the ground faster.

If we beat this horse enough I guess it will end up fertilizer

I have in front of me a copy of an article, minus the tables sadly, that my stepfather (who happened to give me my 35 whelen AI) gave me on "Cartridge Efficiency". This is something that I thought was great when I bought my first rifle. This was due of course to my stepfather emphasizing it as he had been on a quest for the most efficient chamberings for years.

Now, if this guys stuff is kosher, you'd have to get the article to decide for yourself. then you are going to be disappointed. Not that the 7-08 isn't efficient, but it ain't the rosy smelling poo. The most efficient is the 35 Whelen, and all 35's are the most efficient in their classes. The most efficient under 30bore are the 7x57 and 257rob with the 7-08 close behind them.

Efficient this guy rightly defines as what you get for the grain of powder burned. So while I wouldn't get rid of the 7-08, maybe your "perfect deer rifle" should be a 7x57!

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
In my previous post about the perfect deer rifle, alot of you guys picked the 06 over my beloved 708, I'm just wondering, why? I've got nothing against the 06, got one, excellent round, love to reload for it, cause I know what it likes for powders and such. But.....

Lets take the 7mm 154gr. Hornady SP against the .308 150gr.

Now lets start the 7mm at 2700fps and the .308 at 2900 fps.

154gr. 7mm
Velocity(fps) 2700 2484 2280 2088 1908 1739
Energy 2493 2110 1778 1491 1245 1035
Muz 100 200 300 400 500
150gr. .308
2900 2634 2384 2152 1935 1735
2802 2312 1894 1542 1248 1003

As you can see, at the sane distances(under 300yds.) both have plenty of energy and velocity for a deer cartridge. At 400 yds., they're virtually identical, at 500 the 7mm takes over, but still they're both virtually identical, the only difference is the 06 bullet drops -23.9" at 400yds. with a 200yd zero, and the 7mm drops -26.5", not a huge difference.

Now the fact the 06 burns more powder, kicks more, 99 years old, yada, yada doesn't make it a good pick in my book for an ideal "deer" round. Though, it would be my pick for the ideal Elk rifle. So thats my arguement why the 708 is a "Perfect deer rifle". In other words, It'll do everything the 06 does in a shorter action, shorter case, etc. Sorry about beating that dead horse . Jay.

As pointed out by others, this isn't a fair comparison. Why did you use the 154gr bullet for comparison, as opposed to say the 139 grain variety? That is like stuffing 180s into the 308...possible, but not recommended.
It isn't my intent to argue, rather I'd sell you a 280 Remington...then you would really love the 154's!

If you like the 7-08 that's fine but face it, it won't do anything over an 06 except fit in a short action.

Terry

If I were an eastern deer hunter in typical eastern terrain I'd find bliss in the 7-08. Here in the wide west distances tend to be a bit longer than the average back east and seasosn's run concurrent so the "deer" one shoots might be 850 lb's (elk)... in which case I'd alway rather us an 06.

I agree with Brad.

I think the 7mm-08 is fine and a truly good choice as a whitetail rifle, especially for southern/Texas whitetails, or for blacktails in our part of the country. If that was THE single or primary big game animal that you intended to hunt for the bulk of your career, then by all means, go with the 7mm-08 and don't look back. I could make that statement about at least 20 other cartridges, likely more.

I see a comparison between the 7mm-08 and the .30-06 in exactly the same way that I'd compare the '06 to the fine 7mm Mauser. Yes, the 7mm Mauser kicks less, etc., but the .30-06 is still a lot more cartridge that'll do more things. For an all-around cartridge that you'll use for elk as well as mule deer and whitetails, plus maybe moose, caribou, grizzly and sheep up north, and add plainsgame hunting in Africa, then .30-06 is clearly the better choice between the two. If you live in a multi-dimensional hunting world, the the .30-06 remains one of the best possible cartridges you can run with.

Age has absolutely nothing to do with cartridge effectiveness. In fact, some of the older cartridges seem to get even better with age (new powders, bullets, etc.) and only seem to underscore their superiority to the upstarts as time marches on. The .30-06 is one of these cartridges...........

AD

quote:

Age has absolutely nothing to do with cartridge effectiveness. In fact, some of the older cartridges seem to get even better with age (new powders, bullets, etc.) and only seem to underscore their superiority to the upstarts as time marches on.

I couldn't agree more. I didn't use it as a comparision point in the above table as I am not trying to prove my point my twisting numbers, but has anyone paid attention to the HE loads by Federal or the Hornady LM ? The Fedral HE load for the 165 gr is 3000 fps, the Hornady is 3015 fps. These loads put the old 06 closing in on 30 mag velocities.

Sure wish I could get my hands on some of the powder that Federal and Hornady are using on these loads. But I heard its a canister powder that reloaders can't buy.

Jay, Hornady has LM loads for your 7mm-08 also but only in 139 gr bullets at 3000 fps, which I didn't compare against the heavier 30-06 loads.

quote:

Jay,

Don't compare apples and oranges. IF your using a 154 gr 7mm you need to compare it to a 165 gr 30 cal for a straight across comparison.

I will correct my own error on this one the 154gr with a SD of .273 in 7mm bore, Compares with 180 gr with a SD of .271. For your 7mm 139 Gr it matches the 165 gr 30 cal, with the SD's in the .246-.248

Above is only in the 06's favor on comparison, in my book.

OK, OK, I should've used the 140 vs. the 165, well, looking in my Federal catalog thats an even better comparison, the 165 Nosler only has more energy and drifts more in a 10mph wind at 500yds., Now see thats why I like the 708 for a pure deer cartidge, just plain kicks butt against a round that everybody thinks would totally smoke a 708 cuz it's a smaller cartridge. Sorry I had to rub that in. Read the ballistic tables, gentlemen. Jay

JAY;

I usually agree with most of your postings but I have to NOT agree on this one....

Velocity and Foot pound statistics aside, the 7/08 will do anything the 308 will do.... and do so with less recoil...
That gives a lot of nimrods better shot placement.

I don't own a 7/08, mainly because I went the 260 Remington route, but it and the 7/08 are so close.... I also got 3 different 7 x 57s so the 7/08 is kind of redundent.....

I am considering tho on have a Ruger VT rebarreled to 7/08 tho...And also thinking about a M1A in 7/08.

I have never warmed up to the 308, as I think the 06 is superior, but from 7mm on down, I don't think one needs the long 06 cartridge length....

I also quit reading ballistic fps and velocities a long time ago on picking a cartridge...Numbers never killed anything.... My 6.5s don't have impressive numbers always but they sure do have the ability to make some impressive kills with a lot less fuss that a host of bigger cartridges!

Cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
JAY;

I usually agree with most of your postings but I have to NOT agree on this one....

Velocity and Foot pound statistics aside, the 7/08 will do anything the 308 will do.... and do so with less recoil...
That gives a lot of nimrods better shot placement.

I don't own a 7/08, mainly because I went the 260 Remington route, but it and the 7/08 are so close.... I also got 3 different 7 x 57s so the 7/08 is kind of redundent.....

I am considering tho on have a Ruger VT rebarreled to 7/08 tho...And also thinking about a M1A in 7/08.

I have never warmed up to the 308, as I think the 06 is superior, but from 7mm on down, I don't think one needs the long 06 cartridge length....

I also quit reading ballistic fps and velocities a long time ago on picking a cartridge...Numbers never killed anything.... My 6.5s don't have impressive numbers always but they sure do have the ability to make some impressive kills with a lot less fuss that a host of bigger cartridges!

Cheers
seafire

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by cobra:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
JAY;

I usually agree with most of your postings but I have to NOT agree on this one....

Velocity and Foot pound statistics aside, the 7/08 will do anything the 308 will do.... and do so with less recoil...
That gives a lot of nimrods better shot placement.

I don't own a 7/08, mainly because I went the 260 Remington route, but it and the 7/08 are so close.... I also got 3 different 7 x 57s so the 7/08 is kind of redundent.....

I am considering tho on have a Ruger VT rebarreled to 7/08 tho...And also thinking about a M1A in 7/08.

I have never warmed up to the 308, as I think the 06 is superior, but from 7mm on down, I don't think one needs the long 06 cartridge length....

I also quit reading ballistic fps and velocities a long time ago on picking a cartridge...Numbers never killed anything.... My 6.5s don't have impressive numbers always but they sure do have the ability to make some impressive kills with a lot less fuss that a host of bigger cartridges!

Cheers
seafire

Well said.

All I'm trying to say here is, Why use a 3006 when a 708 will do it just as well in a shorter package, just seems like a waste to use a elk rifle(IMHO) on a deer. Now I'll probably get some arguements over that statement, too. Thanks for the discussion, been fun. Jay

Jay,

sorry, I must be spending too much time on the political forum and the intellect of the DuHman and BBBruce are rubbing off on me.....

I did the Homer routine...

I agree with you, not disagree. I was thinking you were knocking the 7/08....

So 'Solly ....

cheers
seafire

quote:

just seems like a waste to use a elk rifle(IMHO) on a deer. Now I'll probably get some arguements over that statement, too. Thanks for the discussion, been fun. Jay

LOL, here's an argument!

Like I said Jay, not all "deer hunting" is the same! I agree though, if I lived in WI I'd see no reason to tote a 30-06 as it is uneccesarily powerful for whitetail, though I bet you'd see less "meat damage" (a much touted crime on these forums) with a slower 180 from the 06 than a fast 120 from a 7-08!

quote:

All I'm trying to say here is, Why use a 3006 when a 708 will do it just as well in a shorter package, just seems like a waste to use a elk rifle(IMHO) on a deer. Now I'll probably get some arguements over that statement, too. Thanks for the discussion, been fun. Jay

Well ya know you could be right, but if you are, you're in the same boat! After all, a .257 is more than enough for deer Just seems like a waste shooting those heavy hard kicking .284's and of course those .257 guy's will almost certainly be over gunned when compared to .243 shooters
On and on and on.

Terry

Any cartridge from .270-.308 in size is certainly fine deer medicine. I happend to like auto loaders for wis deer hunting cause we do deer drives and when it comes to autoloaders I'm a browning man and I'm pretty sure browning (and remington)aren't recogonizing the 7-08. That new browning short trac is really neat IMHO...lightweight and a real nice feel to it. I guess what I'm saying is it took me alot of years to "swear off the ballistic tables" and decide that most anything will work but I should pick the rifle I want first and then consider caliber 2nd. And I tend to lean towards a little more power as I can always down load something a little and can never upload to a bigger caliber. Besides, if I catch a gun I really like and it's a shooter I can probably use it for more hunting applications.

I think the round and round on this thread boils down to two distinct rifle types. THe first is closer to a dedicated deer rifle, for lack of a better description a woods rifle. Shots will generally be limited to 250 yds or so, the rifle should be reasonably short, and handle well. In this rifle a 7mm-08, 7x57, and several others like the 308, 358 Win, 8x57, 6.5x55 are all good contenders. The rifle on this class is much more critical than the caliber, handling is primary importance and I would want it set up so reasonable running shots on game is almost second nature with the rig.

The second rifle is more of a plains game rifle, longer barrel, the incresed velocity is important not so much because of the 1-2" less drop, but performance in crosswinds is my main concern. I have been on several mule deer hunts and antelope hunts, where closing and stalking closer was just about impossible, and the shot is 300 yds in a nasty crosswind. Pretty much take or leave situation. When faced with these shoots I want a longer barrel, and more velocity, and folks I make no excuses here but a long shot in a steady crosswind is a tough shot. I have had more than one where I am lined up on game and judging between the gusts and eventually passed on the shot cause the weather Gods weren't on my side. This same rifle I would want to use on bear/elk/deer/antelope and sheep/gaot or moose if I ever draw a tag. Yeah its a heavier rifle, yeah it kicks a little harder, but the rifle needs to perform all of the above not just a single task. For this the 30-06, 280, 270, even a 7mm Mag are better suited to this task. This is not a exclusive list and there are probably 20 rounds or more that are suitable. I personally use a 30 Mag for this roll, but I am building a 280 Rem that I plan on using for this when its done.

I having my 280 Rem built around the premice that I will be using 150 gr bullets @ 2900 fps. Thats my goal and right now I see no issues with reaching that expectation. The only real other round in consideration when I started building this was the 300 H&H, but I admit my choices were based a lot on suitable cartridges for my action.

Anyway Jay, I could defiantely see myself using a 7mm-08, a little redundant for me cause of my 7x57's, I would want the rifle to have a heavy 20" tube, and balance and carry qualities would be very important. My son just bought a deer rifle actually and the #1 reason that rifle isn't a 7mm-08 is I couldn't find a rifle in this caliber that I liked. ( this was my son's dollars and I will temper that in his price range, a expensive custom was not in his budget)

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
OK, OK, I should've used the 140 vs. the 165, well, looking in my Federal catalog thats an even better comparison, the 165 Nosler only has more energy and drifts more in a 10mph wind at 500yds., Now see thats why I like the 708 for a pure deer cartidge, just plain kicks butt against a round that everybody thinks would totally smoke a 708 cuz it's a smaller cartridge. Sorry I had to rub that in. Read the ballistic tables, gentlemen. Jay

THE 7-08 DOES NOT JUST PLAIN KICK BUTT COMPARED TO THE 30.06....AND VICA VERSA with respect to deer. I'm confident that we could both shoot 2 deer at 280 yards and drop them both, you with your rifle, me with mine. Both of us very familiar with our rifles, comfortable with recoil, and knowing our trajectory. To date I have killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40 game animals with my current Rem. 30.06 and not ONE has taken a step after the shot regardless of bullet placement or angle. I have ZERO personal experience with 7-08 but have been shoulder to shoulder with other hunters who have used them with great success. Sure I've seen some Alabama whitetails fall to the round at 50 yards, but this was after a 60 yard dash. I personally want the animal to drop. I'll take my elk rifle for deer anyday with my 168 TSX. Overgunned? Who cares! It makes me happy!

Ya know, I think MOST hunters (some of whom are extraordinarily successful) know nothing of bullet drift, velocity, BC, and all the mysterious things we talk about here and all the technical stuff...and they still bring home game meat at various ranges. They go to the range 2 days before season, shoot 2 bullets, and go hunting.

For my first 4 years of deer hunting with my only rifle (270), I was told to sight in 2" high at 100 yards. Aim right on to about 250, then at 300 aim at the back line. 400, aim 8-10" high.

I never had a problem then (even though I never shot a deer over 225, but I did drop a yote at 340).

Doc, some of the best hunter's I know are also the most naive about all thing's gunny...

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
I agree with Brad.

I think the 7mm-08 is fine and a truly good choice as a whitetail rifle, especially for southern/Texas whitetails, or for blacktails in our part of the country. If that was THE single or primary big game animal that you intended to hunt for the bulk of your career, then by all means, go with the 7mm-08 and don't look back. I could make that statement about at least 20 other cartridges, likely more.

I see a comparison between the 7mm-08 and the .30-06 in exactly the same way that I'd compare the '06 to the fine 7mm Mauser. Yes, the 7mm Mauser kicks less, etc., but the .30-06 is still a lot more cartridge that'll do more things. For an all-around cartridge that you'll use for elk as well as mule deer and whitetails, plus maybe moose, caribou, grizzly and sheep up north, and add plainsgame hunting in Africa, then .30-06 is clearly the better choice between the two. If you live in a multi-dimensional hunting world, the the .30-06 remains one of the best possible cartridges you can run with.

Age has absolutely nothing to do with cartridge effectiveness. In fact, some of the older cartridges seem to get even better with age (new powders, bullets, etc.) and only seem to underscore their superiority to the upstarts as time marches on. The .30-06 is one of these cartridges...........

AD

So are the oldies 6.5x55,7x57,.270,.35 Whelen,etc. The '06 is not the only one that gets better with age. Allen, to your credit you did give the 7x57 its due.

Jay, my two favorite cartridges are the 7mm-08 and the .35 Whelen with the .308 in hot pursuit. It (the 7mm-08) will kill animals all out of proportion to its size, like the 7x57 and 6.5 Swede will. A lot of people who won't give it it's due don't own one...

I doubt that I will ever own a 7-08, especially if the "on the other hand" choice is a 30-06. However the 30-06 is in no way a better (or more perfect) deer cartridge. Come on guys... there is no concievable shot (angle, distance etc.)where the same bullet placement from one of these two cartridge would kill (a deer) while the other wouldn't.

quote:

Originally posted by naja302:
I doubt that I will ever own a 7-08, especially if the "on the other hand" choice is a 30-06. However the 30-06 is in no way a better (or more perfect) deer cartridge. Come on guys... there is no concievable shot (angle, distance etc.)where the same bullet placement from one of these two cartridge would kill (a deer) while the other wouldn't.

I own both, just depends on my mood that day.

I have a Remington Titanium rifle in 7mm-08 and have found that to be my go to rifle. Lightweight and scary accurate!

quote:

Originally posted by safarihunter:
I have a Remington Titanium rifle in 7mm-08 and have found that to be my go to rifle. Lightweight and scary accurate!

I've heard about them, how are they price wise compared to a regular mountain rifle in stainless? Is it better at resisting rust?

I had some spare minutes and put some thought into making a sweet 7mm-08. Opinions will vary but, this would interest me and since the 7mm-08 is so very similar to my favorite 7x57 I am sure I could find a open place in my safe or rack for:

Start with a Sako L-579 or a ZKK-601 action. Match grade barrel no lighter than a #2 contour. I want it to measure right at .600-.610 when it all done. Barrel length 20-20.5" with target crown. No iron sights, scope small compact in the 1.5x5 to 2x7 range. Rings must be a 2 piece. Stock would get determined on my whim on finishing. If I choose a matte finished rifle thoughts would be a Rimrock stock. If I stayed with traditional blue ( first choice) I would want a good piece of walnut with the color and fire in the buttstock, checkered properly, nothing exotic in styling I would want this rifle to handle well. No forend cap, I would want a hunting rig, and quality workmanship in a plain theme with no embellishments is the goal. Double screw rear swivel, front on the forend. Work on the Sako trigger by honing and adjusting, the BRNO I could live with the factory set.

All finished on the scale at around 7-7 1/2 lbs.

I am not saying I couldn't start with a couple of "other" actions, there are some other good options, and yes even a Remington 700 would work. But when I had it all put together I would like the above choices best.

Hmmm, the more I think about the above the better I like the concept but I need to finish up current projects before starting any new ones.

Here would be a good starting point or two:





I really got to consider this more seriously, done right a new stock might not even be in the equation just sweat labor and clean up.

Cobra.
The Remington Titanium.
They are a very handy rifle. Mine too is accurate.
Rust, whilst I have not had it long, I was out with it a few weeks ago, after some prolonged rain, the rifle did get wet. I was bush hunting and every shrub that got a knock shed some water. The action showed no sign of having been wet, but the sling swivel studs, which are blue and in my opinion an oversight by Remington, did, after a couple of days show an ugly brown bloom.
They do cost more.
Here in New Zealand the Titanium is about 40% more expensive that the Mountain Rifle. It's my view that they are better than the Mountain. There is a Mountain in 260 in my cabinet.
My Titanium has one of the older, pre R3 recoil pads. I like it, those R3 are in my view to soft.
At times it's useful to use a rifle as a walking stick when climbing out of a creek, I immagine that the R3 would not be up to the job.
Come to think of it the Titanium is one of the best walking sticks I've had.