quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
458 Only,
keep in mind that Ganyana, got stomped by and elephant and got his leg broke as I recall, didn't stop that big tusker with his 9.2x63, bad call brother!!

But hey, I still love the 9.3x62, in the bush, it would be my pick, but the .338 in the wide open West for my yearly elk cannot be beat..

I only got 2525 FPS with a 286 gr. bullet and that was max,plus max, in my Mausers with 26 inch fast Lothar Walthar barrels!! I could get about the same with RL-15 and RL-17, with the edge going to RL-17 and it may have been a bit hotter load. H414 got almost that velocity and much less pressure IMO..A good reference on loading the 9.3x62 is African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre van der Walt, and he has a lot of good loads for African powders also.

Ray,

Elephant were never mentioned in my posts, but Cape buff were, and I'll stand by what I previously stated. Don Heath (Ganyana) is on record that for a wounded ele in the thick stuff, he preferred something bigger than a 9.3 X 62.

I've never hunted ele, but have a friend who has. He's used both a .458 Win Mag and a .375 H&H. He felt the .375 H&H was better because of less recoil. For myself, if I ever hunted eles, I'd choose a .458 Winchester Magnum since recoil
isn't a major concern to me.

For interests sake I'll mention that I receive 160 fps MORE from a 286 NP using RL-17 than I could safely reach from RL-15, showing less pressure than RL-15 to boot. I can't get enough RL-17 powder into a Hornady case, seat the 286 NP to a COL of 3.37" that causes harm to anything, including the case. I judge that based on many years of loading .338 WMs, a .340 Wby, .350 Rem Mags, .35 Whelens and .375 H&H's.

YMMV

None of this is a recommendation but purely my loads in my rifles. They may (or may not) be excessive in yours. The greatest variable is the handloader himself.

My current blog is about such variables.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
As is usual on AR when a person asks about two calibers we feel it mandatory to suggest another. In honor of that tradition I suggest the 375 Weatherby. 300g bullets at 2800 fps out of a 24" barrel, or shoot standard 375 H&H factory rounds (300g A-Frames at 2450 fps) if you feel inclined.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

quote:

Originally posted by 700xcr:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Years ago I did a comparison of all the medium bore cartridges I could think up . Most if not all of them were and are awesome rounds. From the 338 Winchester to the 378Wetherbee.
When it was all tallied up, availability of factory rifles and a relatively compact rifle and available brass , bullets and factory loaded ammo showed the 375 Ruger to be the top of the list. Then Kabluey tempted me with a 9.3x64 Brenneke barrel and a Mark X action . Intelligence fled from my brain and I built the 9.3x64. It's really great. And with a 21.5" barrel I get 2750 fps from the 250 gr Barnes and 2640 - 2660 fps with the 286 gr bullets. Nice ballistics, uncommon brass. Unfortunately I really want another Ruger M77 Stainless Hawkeye, in 338 Winchester and a 375 Ruger Guide Gun/Rifle.
My 9.3x64 fits me perfectly. Is so far strictly a 1shot killer. And yet , I want another couple Ruger factory rifles to take its place. Either one would suffice.
Such are the whims of a rifle looney.

You will be happy with the 375 Ruger Guide Gun. A few tips when you get it is relieve the laminate would around the tang of the action, free float the barrel and glass bed the action. I smoothed up the rails and bolt works smoothly. I change trigger spring and honed trigger to a crisp 2 pound trigger pull. I have 2 loads that work well. 300gr. Nosler Accubond traveling 2590fps and a Woodleigh 350gr. PP load traveling 2390fps. Both shoot sub MOA at 100yds.

Yes, good advice. I always relieve the rear tang and rear tang of the bottom metal and all angled rear facing areas toward the rear of the reciever. About 3 thicknesses of blue painters tape on fiberglass, wood and laminate stocks. I will probably mostly shoot the 250 gr TTSX BT from the 375 Ruger. Historically I dont use the 375s as a bear gun. Tho they will work fine for that.
I'm just kinda addicted to 416s and the 458 for bear.
Not that I would hesitate a second to kill a bear , even a monster bear if one presented itself while I was hunting something else. Moose, bou, deer, and was armed with a 338 Win mag, 9.3, or 375. Including my 375 Whelan AI. I view the medium bores as great deer rounds when hunting where the chance of bumping into a bear is present.
Having run big brown bear on foot with 1 small sled dog and a 338 Winchester loaded with 300 gr Barnes @around 2500 fps. I have good confidence in the medium bores. Just more confidence in the large bores. Which I dont put the 375 in the large bore category. But, thats just me.
I like all of these and kinda use them interchangeably. But I like the availability of the 338 Winchester.

This discussion is not unlike the endless debates surrounding the 375H&H and 375 Weatherby.

I hail from the "Land of the BRNO 602"
I say this because BRNO had a very strong market share in old South Africa. In fact game departments and the Parks board issued game rangers with 602's and for a time they were the heirs of the Mauser fetish that was very prevalent amongst South African hunters..... a poor mans Mauser at a time when no new Mausers could be had.

It is not by chance that this came about if one considers that Brno shipped their very first ZG's to South Africa where they were sold by the then Bren Arms in Cape Town South Africa in 1950. Though the Galas rifle ( after Otakar Galas engineer at ZB) was designed in 1947 the first production rifle with serial number 00... 1 wore a 1950 date stamp.

The very first run of ZG 47s were all 9.3 x 62's as evidenced by their serial numbers and caliber designations.

The Galas Rifle was superseded by the Koucky Brothers rifle ZKK and this in the 602 series became the platform for many a conversion ! The ZKK had generous max box and both in 375 cal and 458 cal became the source of a plethora of home grown wildcats and conversions. Some duplicating others without knowing that they were actually doing so, especially in caliber 458.

Conversion of the 375 H&H to 375 Weatherby was a simple enough operation and though it required reproofing under SA law by the SABS in Pretoria it was then not uncommon to see 602's modified in this manner.

On paper at least the 375 Weatherby had a impressive resume because at the time the muzzle energy numbers exceeded that of not only the 458 Win but also the then rare 416 Rigby. ( even rarer was ammo to feed the Rigby with )

The debate however was that in the field this increase in velocity and muzzle energy meant little and some guys with a lot of culling experience even contended that the last thing a 375 needed was an increase in velocity or bullet mass ( in the case of the 350 gr bullet) This debate filled many a page in the old Man and Man/ Magnum magazine.

A hunting buddy of mine at the time had one of these conversions and hunting many a wildebeest and zebra on our ranch I can not say there was any difference between my H&H and his Weatherby.

Where I did see a difference was between the 9.3 x 62 and the 9.3x64. I have one of the very rare ( if not only ? ) factory built 9.3 x64's in BRNO ZG 47. The velocity difference affects bullet behaviour and 9.3 bullets designed by RWS for 62 do poorly in the 64. The meat and trophy damage of the 64 is considerably more with the 64 using these "old" bullets" At the time 9.3 bullets and brass was scarce and only a few makers had them on offer.

Alf,
Great post, I have always been a 9.3x62 and a 375 H&H fan, preferring the 375 H&H over the faster Weatherby 375..Seemed to me the 300 gr. and 350 gr. bullets all performed better at H&H velocities, and the old African boys had it right, and why not, they used them moreso than anyone on this side of the world...I have no doubt that the 9.3x62 is not up to the 375, but it is pretty close with a good handload. I consider it a minimum on buffalo, and that is the official possion of some African countries. I see it as a an excellent short range PG, Alaskan bear, Moose, and Eland caliber for instance..but that's just my assessment for myself..I also am a fan of the Brno/CZ .375 H&H and I presently own one..Im not crazy about that straight trigger, its just uglyf and too far forward in the trigger guard IMO, and I intend to modify that. The most amazing thing about the Brno/cz that I Have is it shoots to actual POI, with its factory 3 leaf sights marked 100, 200 and 300, its spot on with each leaf!! and that's akin to the second coming.

I would hunt any animal on earth with either caliber, if circumstances demanded it, but neither would be my first choice on elephant or buffalo for that matter preferring the .416 or 404..

Not likely to hunt elephant or cape buffalo, but I do live in Southcentral AK and more power is always of interest. This Summer, bought a 20" .375 Ruger guide gun along with a Burris Tac30 1-4x w/lit reticle and loading tools and supplies.

Wondering if any of you H&H shooters, or other .375ruger shooters have used the 350gr Barnes TSX bullet? Maybe it's a bit too stout for our Brown Bear and Moose, but both grow very large hereabouts.

The 20" barrel and iron sight system with peep from NECG plus access to heavier bullets really sold me. I remain very partial to the .338/300win mag, but not seeing it as a short-barrel proposition. I had owned .338win mag, .338rum and .340wby before finding the .338/300 will do more than any of them, since it works great with reduced loads.

I remain very happy with my .338s, but admit for a compact truck gun sort of all-purpose hiking rifle where I live, the .375ruger in this compact package is very exciting!

I use the 270 grain TSX for moose in the 375 Ruger. I have been very satisfied with its performance.

I do use the 350 TSX in my 416 Ruger, and definitely like that combination. The 20" barrels are certainly handy.

quote:

Originally posted by aklester:
Not likely to hunt elephant or cape buffalo, but I do live in Southcentral AK and more power is always of interest. This Summer, bought a 20" .375 Ruger guide gun along with a Burris Tac30 1-4x w/lit reticle and loading tools and supplies.

Wondering if any of you H&H shooters, or other .375ruger shooters have used the 350gr Barnes TSX bullet? Maybe it's a bit too stout for our Brown Bear and Moose, but both grow very large hereabouts.

The 20" barrel and iron sight system with peep from NECG plus access to heavier bullets really sold me. I remain very partial to the .338/300win mag, but not seeing it as a short-barrel proposition. I had owned .338win mag, .338rum and .340wby before finding the .338/300 will do more than any of them, since it works great with reduced loads.

I remain very happy with my .338s, but admit for a compact truck gun sort of all-purpose hiking rifle where I live, the .375ruger in this compact package is very exciting!

These calibers are a lot more alike than they are different. Destroy an animals lungs or heart and they will remain mobile for about 20-30 seconds. It's up to them what they do during this time.
A .338 is capable of doing that on every species of North American big game provided the shot is reasonably well placed.
None of the cartridges being discussed will do it with a poorly placed shot.

I do not think, much of a valid argument can be made against a 338 Win Mag's effectiveness or its versatility.
It is my choice, if I were limited to one cartridge for use in Alaska.
To date, the 338 Win Mag with 225 TSX dropped my first moose as fast and/or faster than my 375 Ruger & 416 Ruger.
I do not consider any of them, shoot in the general direction and expect instant death-ray results. It is definitely the bullet performance and placement that does the killing.
With all that said, my current favorite moose cartridge/rifle combination is a 375 Ruger of some configuration. It has been for a several years.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
These calibers are a lot more alike than they are different. Destroy an animals lungs or heart and they will remain mobile for about 20-30 seconds. It's up to them what they do during this time.
A .338 is capable of doing that on every species of North American big game provided the shot is reasonably well placed.
None of the cartridges being discussed will do it with a poorly placed shot.

For my personal use I like the 338 win mag and if I want or need more I grab my 416.

I prefer the .338 to any middle of the road caliber, but believe the 9.3x62 is the best of the 06 type case, albeit Im not one to make 9.3x62 cases from 06 cases as 9.3x 62 PMC cases are just as cheap as 30-06 cases...

For the NA continent I do my best work with the .338 and believe the 375 to be more useful in Africa but then I like a .416 or 404 a little better for DG than either the .338 or the 375...Just makes good since to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
I view the .338 Win Mag and the 375 H&H as 2 completely different rungs in the caliber/cartridge ladder not competing against each other, think of a 6.5 Swede and a 30/06 that's how I view them.
I have a .338 Win Mag and a couple 375 H&H's
I also have a 6.5 Swede and a couple 30/06's to compare.
All very capable at what they do best. Just my opinion.

I share this view as well. Though not my preference I would happily shoot a grizzly bear or lion or Cape buffalo with a 338WM or even a 338/06 come to think of it, but I would stop there.
I would not hesitate to take any animal in the world with my 375. Sure there is some overlap of suitability between the two but I don't think it makes for as comparison as the 270/30-06 debate.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
For my personal use I like the 338 win mag and if I want or need more I grab my 416.

JPW, I'm with you on these choices.
The 338 Win Mag pretty much does it all, and if one wants more, then a .416 is a comforting step up.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I prefer the .338 to any middle of the road caliber, but believe the 9.3x62 is the best of the 06 type case, albeit Im not one to make 9.3x62 cases from 06 cases as 9.3x 62 PMC cases are just as cheap as 30-06 cases...

For the NA continent I do my best work with the .338 and believe the 375 to be more useful in Africa but then I like a .416 or 404 a little better for DG than either the .338 or the 375...Just makes good since to me.

And that touches on some new developments in the last decade that broaden our choices.

In the past, most 375's were found in heavier larger rifles than a 338. So in going from a 338 to a 375 a person mostly only got a heavier rifle, and with a heavier rifle one might as well get a 416Rigby and load it to the gils.

But now we have a 375 Ruger being offered as commonplace in a lot of inexpensive to medium priced factory rifles in light-medium weights and sizes. Mossberg, Savage, Howa, Ruger, ... Winchester and Remington will probably smell the coffee pretty soon.

So a person can split the difference between a 338 and a 416 in a lighter rifle, though even a 416 can now be found in a smaller 416 Ruger package. We, my wife and I, broke with family tradition and she got a 375 Ruger so that she would fit into Tanzania's hunting laws in ways that the 338 and 9.3 fall short. Otherwise we might have gotten her one of those left-handed 338 Ruger Compact magnums still being offered at CDNN Sports for $499 (still a good buy IMO).

The bottom line--the 338WM is probably the best all-around for NA and the 375 Ruger or H&H in Africa. But if I were to go 'light rifle Africa' I might go 416Ruger, or else get a second 375 Ruger, right-hand, a his and hers. Like I said, we have a lot of nice choices these days.

For me personally, I like the 338. I also like the 375 but I've come to this conclusion:
1) The 338 shoots slightly flatter, has a better sectional density for the bullets that fly 2700fps+, and has a touch less recoil. There is also more bullet choices if you need to buy factory ammo.

2) when it comes to stepping up to the 375, I have found the 416 about equally easy to handle and it offers a greater caliber jump from 375 to 416 then it does 338 to 375. If the 416 wasn't available, I might choose the 375 over 338.

3)For buffalo or bigger / tougher, the 375 has a proven track record. For bear on down, I would still choose the 338 for a little more versatility. For only bear, I would choose the 375

Final Conclusion: I like the 338 slightly better, but its a tough choice. Both are powerful. Both penetrate well, both shoot fairly flat, but the 338 is plenty for North America, slightly more tolerable, slightly more factory choices, slightly lighter, slightly flatter shooting, and the 388 will really shine over the 375 when you get out to 400 yards+

The 338 is my favorite caliber followed by the 416

I suppose if push came to shove, I could get by with any of the choices on this thread..I more picky about bullet construction than I am about caliber.

For me, the proper jumps are 338 to 423 then to 500...

quote:

Originally posted by aklester:
Not likely to hunt elephant or cape buffalo, but I do live in Southcentral AK and more power is always of interest. This Summer, bought a 20" .375 Ruger guide gun along with a Burris Tac30 1-4x w/lit reticle and loading tools and supplies.

Wondering if any of you H&H shooters, or other .375ruger shooters have used the 350gr Barnes TSX bullet? Maybe it's a bit too stout for our Brown Bear and Moose, but both grow very large hereabouts.

The 20" barrel and iron sight system with peep from NECG plus access to heavier bullets really sold me. I remain very partial to the .338/300win mag, but not seeing it as a short-barrel proposition. I had owned .338win mag, .338rum and .340wby before finding the .338/300 will do more than any of them, since it works great with reduced loads.

I remain very happy with my .338s, but admit for a compact truck gun sort of all-purpose hiking rifle where I live, the .375ruger in this compact package is very exciting!

I have the 375 Ruger Guide gun. Have it set up with a Leupold VX3 2.5-8X36mm with Alaskan Arms quick detach rings. I have it sighted in at 200yds with my Nosler 300gr. Accubond load chronographed at 2590fps. This is my elk load. I also have the NECG Ruger Ghost Ring Peep Sight with the 0.215" aperture and a NECG Ruger Gold Face Partridge front post sight. I am sighting this system at 100yds with my Woodleigh 350gr.PP load chronographed at 2391fps. This will be my close timber and brush for elk,bear, or whatever I thing is necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
For me, the proper jumps are 338 to 423 then to 500...

Your instincts are pretty close to mine: 338 ... 416 ... 510.