Hi,

I am realising that it may be time to retire my .30-06 which is a BSA made in the fifties and has seen use by three generation in our family. She is getting temperamental in her old age.

My first choice would be to replace it with another .30-06 but the firearms law in South Africa makes it almost impossible to have two rifles of the same cartridge.

So, I would like to acquire another rifle that is the 06's equal (or close to it) so that I can keep the 06, even if only for sentimental value.

I use the rifle mostly for bush hunting which means ranges will be under 200 yards 99% of the time. I have a .270 for longer range hunting and a .375 H&H for big stuff. I almost exclusively use a 180 grain load in my 06 because the barrel seems to like them best, but have used 220 grain loads and these are actually preferable for the type of hunting that the rifle is used for -- hoofed animals from 80 kg to 220 kg (176 lbs to 485 lbs) at ranges within 200 metres.

I should also add that the replacement rifle will have it's barrel shortened to 21". My BSA has a 21" barre land I love a short, handy rifle. I would like to keep that characteristic.

My short list is:

1) 7x57 Mauser: 175 gr at 2,400 fps

A classic. Very tempting, but lacks heavier bullet capacity.

2) .308 Win: 180 gr at 2,500 fps

As good as the 06 up to 180 grains, but (as with the 7x57) lacks the versatility of heavier bullets.

3) 8mm Mauser: 220 gr at 2,400 fps

On paper, it looks to be (almost) as good as the 06 with heavier bullets (> 200 grains)

4) 300 Win Mag: 220 gr at 2,500 fps

I don't need the magnum velocity, so I would be loading minimum charges, but it would give me the option of hotting up my loads for desert hunting of large animals, should I need it. This would also not work well with ha 21" barrel.

And the outsider is...

5) 9.3 x 62: 286 gr at 2,400 fps

I love this cartridge, but it is too close to the .375 that I already have and does not fill the gap between my .270 Win. & .375 H&H.

I would appreciate comments on my list and feel free to add suggestions!

Cheers

8x57 seems to be the perfect choice. It will work well with the 21in barrel and can shoot the heavier bullets.

But a 7x57 would be great also. If you find that you need heavier bullets than its 175gr your could use your 375.

But, given your listed cartridges, the 8x57 is the one that comes closest to matching the 30-06.

I haven't tested my theory, but I think I would have equal confidence in a 8x57 or a 30-06 loaded with 200 gr Barnes TSX bullets. Based on stuff I've read, and my limited experience with the Barnes bullet, there's no need to use the extra heavy for caliber bullets, like 220 gr 8mm or 30 cal. The bonus is a little more speed, and you give up nothing.

Also, I think the heavier bullets in either 30 cal and 8mm are better stabilized with the common 10" twist, than compared to the 7mm 175 gr out of the common 9" twist rate. Again, that's mostly my theory, but it's based on some research and one experience example. Anyway, confidence matters, theory or not.

I presume that cartridges like 8x60S or 8mm-06 or 338-06 are not considered. These are not technically wildcats, but that may not matter, since as a practical matter handloads are probably required, but then again I know of no factory loads in 8x57 with 220gr bullets. For where you live, the 338-06 with a 225gr bullet seems like some kind of perfect fit, especially if you already have a 30-06.

KB

8x57 for all the reasons that have kept it thriving in Europe which are the same reasons why the '06 has thrived in America. It gets the job done.

I'd just put a new 30/06 barrel on it.

Any of the .300 magnums would seem to fit your description. In a short, handy rifle, the .300 (or .325) WSM would seem to be a perfect fit, if ammo availability isn't an issue.

Of course, rebarreling your existing .30/06 is probably the easiest solution.

BECoole has it. Rebarrel.

Or, if you are interested in keeping the rifle in original condition, why not rebore to either 338/06 or 35 Whelen? Both will do wonders at your game, with the 338 getting better energy and SD at veloities just under 338 Win Mag, and the 35 pushing a 250 at just a tad slower.... Plus, the both are factory loadings, (not certain of availability in RSA though).

Least expensive would be a rebarrel.

Did not know RSA was that restrictive for private firearms ownership. I have 10+ rifles in 30/06 alone bolt, semi and singleshot; I guess I'd be in a bind in RSA....

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
I'd just put a new 30/06 barrel on it.

+1

Those old BSAs were very fine rifles in their day, together with Parker-Hale the reasonably priced Birmingham alternative to a London "named" rifle.

I think you guys can get the Lothar Walther barrels down there, the old girl could go on for a few more generations for less than the price of a new rifle.

As far as the bizzies are concerned, the old rifle is going to the gunsmith's for a "tune-up" What's not to like?

If it is chaep, and you can get the cases...and are not shocked by the expensive cost of the dies...then 8x60 or 8x68S would be as good as it gets.

You already have your ideal answer in 300 Winchester Magnum handloaded as a "light" magnum or as a "heavy" 30-06 however.

8x60, a Brno if you can find one! Wonderful little gun.

And you can´t go wrong with a 9.3x62

Of course rebarreling to 30-06 would be the 1st choise but if you've another one then the 9.3x62 or preferably, to me anyway, the 35 Whelen. Ammo availability of the 9.3x62 may be better for you in SA though.

Larry Gibson

Of your list, I would go 308 or 8X57. Tops on my list would be the 35Whelen. The deciding factor would be ammo availability because if I am not mistaken, reloading is banned in RSA.

Since you are going for a short and handy rifle, I would go with the .308, which would give you a short action. The 8x57 would be great also, but you would need a medium or long action.

I think the .308 is very much equivalent to the 8x57. There are so many superb 180 grain bullets in 30 caliber.

quote:

BECoole has it. Rebarrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
if I am not mistaken, reloading is banned in RSA.

I believe that is incorrect.

IIRC, SA, Namibia and Zimbabwe allow reloading but Tanzania and Zambia do not.

8x57 or 35 Whelen if you reload.

I dont really see a big gap between the 270 win and 375 H&H, they cover well.

The 9.3x62 is a no brainer; gives yo ua DG capable round & flat enough for most velt hunting. The 338Sabi would be a good choice in RSA.

quote:

BECoole has it. Rebarrel.

Or, if you are interested in keeping the rifle in original condition, why not rebore to either 338/06 or 35 Whelen? Both will do wonders at your game, with the 338 getting better energy and SD at veloities just under 338 Win Mag, and the 35 pushing a 250 at just a tad slower.... Plus, the both are factory loadings, (not certain of availability in RSA though).

Least expensive would be a rebarrel.

My understanding is rebarreling would be against the gun laws unless it is the same caliber. I also understand that gunsmithing in RSA is quite expensive, buying a new rifle may likely prove more economical. Even here, a quality rebore can be almost as expensive as a new factory rifle.

One of the things I would explore/consider is simply converting it to a "switch-barrel rig.

That is very easy to do. I have several of them myself, which I did myself.

IF it is legal, which any SA gunsmith can tell you, that way you can have a rifle in 8x57 or .338-06 or 9.3x62 (whichever you choose to buy a barrel in) and in the original .30-06, depending on which barrel you install on any given day.

Could be a fun project instead of a problem.

Best of luck whichever option you pick.

AC

quote:

2) .308 Win: 180 gr at 2,500 fps

As good as the 06 up to 180 grains, but (as with the 7x57) lacks the versatility of heavier bullets.

The big question is whether or not you are allowed to reload/handload your ammunition? You can push a 220 gr. rounds nose from a 22" barreled .308 to 2310 FPS. I did it in a Winchester M70 with 1 in 12" twist and they shot just fine. In fact, it'sthe most accurate load I have for that rifle. Only 100 FPS slower than the same weight bullet in 30-06. Work fine with RN bullets. I never tried spitzers that heavy and anyway, Match Kings aren't recommended for hunting.
Paul B.

300 H&H

Although the 270 and 375 H&H covers everything you need, I fully understand the need to buy additional rifles. Given your criteria, I'd consider the 358 Win.(short action),35 Whelen or (my favorite) 9.3x62.

Lou

As for rebarreling, are your barrels serial numberd as opposed to the action?? Been years since I travelled in your area, but know some locations are that way and to rebarrel is equivalent to buying another firearm?? Just curious, but as others mentioned the 9.3x62 would certainly be good choice and yes, 358Win. as well. If reloading is an option, I would opt for the 308 for very near the 06 if loaded up a bit. Can you own a designated military cartridge in your area?? Some parts of the globe that is a restriction, just curious.

The 8x57 is a real classic that would give you a nice companion to the '06. If you wanted to get a real nifty cartridge for a lighter short barreled rifle in which you intend on obtaining, I would take a hard look at the 338 Federal.

Defenitely do not buy a 35 Whelen or the 9.3 X 62 support group here on the AR Forums will shun you.

Actually, I would rebarrel the 06 and buy an 7X57 or 8X57 for what you describe - "hoofed animals from 80 kg to 220 kg (176 lbs to 485 lbs) at ranges within 200 metres."

I know that typical "European" loading for both those rounds are better than their enemic US counterparts. Don't know how available 338 Federal or 358 Winchester ammo would be in S. Africa.

Barstooler

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
I'd just put a new 30/06 barrel on it.

+1

Those old BSAs were very fine rifles in their day, together with Parker-Hale the reasonably priced Birmingham alternative to a London "named" rifle.

I think you guys can get the Lothar Walther barrels down there, the old girl could go on for a few more generations for less than the price of a new rifle.

As far as the bizzies are concerned, the old rifle is going to the gunsmith's for a "tune-up" What's not to like?

A new barrel is an option...but I need an excuse to buy an additional rifle.

Here is a photo of my BSA. It is a beautiful light little rifle. My only complaint is that it can be a temperamental feeder and has a push-feed action that has demonstrated the shortfalls of this system (as compared to of controlled round feeding) a couple of times.



As an aside, when you undergo an exercise such as this, it becomes clear just what a great cartridge the .30-06 is. While there may be no perfect all-round cartridge, the '06 is surely one of (if not the) most versatile.

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
Since you are going for a short and handy rifle, I would go with the .308, which would give you a short action. The 8x57 would be great also, but you would need a medium or long action.

I think the .308 is very much equivalent to the 8x57. There are so many superb 180 grain bullets in 30 caliber.

I have been thinking of trying to source a M48 Yugo "Mauser". There have been some "Military new" M48 rifles floating around here in RSA.

This would be a great base for a semi-custom sporter.

This is a shortened action, not so?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
if I am not mistaken, reloading is banned in RSA.

I believe that is incorrect.

IIRC, SA, Namibia and Zimbabwe allow reloading but Tanzania and Zambia do not.

Hand loading is still legal in RSA. Hopefully it will remain so.

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
8x60, a Brno if you can find one! Wonderful little gun.

And you can´t go wrong with a 9.3x62

I would love to find a Brno Mod 21 or ZG47! They are scarce as rocking horse dung though.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

quote:

2) .308 Win: 180 gr at 2,500 fps

As good as the 06 up to 180 grains, but (as with the 7x57) lacks the versatility of heavier bullets.

The big question is whether or not you are allowed to reload/handload your ammunition? You can push a 220 gr. rounds nose from a 22" barreled .308 to 2310 FPS. I did it in a Winchester M70 with 1 in 12" twist and they shot just fine. In fact, it'sthe most accurate load I have for that rifle. Only 100 FPS slower than the same weight bullet in 30-06. Work fine with RN bullets. I never tried spitzers that heavy and anyway, Match Kings aren't recommended for hunting.
Paul B.

I was not aware that this could be done. 2,300 fps would certainly suffice for my requirements.

Which propellant did you use to achieve this this? I would like to see if there is a locally-produced equivalent which I could use to experiment. Very interesting.

8*57is is perfect for 200gr bullets, similar speed as 3006.

8*57is is perfect for 200g bullets, same speed as 3006.

quote:

Originally posted by MFD:
As for rebarreling, are your barrels serial numberd as opposed to the action?? Been years since I travelled in your area, but know some locations are that way and to rebarrel is equivalent to buying another firearm?? Just curious, but as others mentioned the 9.3x62 would certainly be good choice and yes, 358Win. as well. If reloading is an option, I would opt for the 308 for very near the 06 if loaded up a bit. Can you own a designated military cartridge in your area?? Some parts of the globe that is a restriction, just curious.

Yes, as far as I know a barrel is considered a firearm ad you certainly need a license to own it. Even if it is not mated to an action.

The stupidity of our firearms laws know no limits down here.

quote:

Originally posted by Bear Kodiak:
The 8x57 is a real classic that would give you a nice companion to the '06. If you wanted to get a real nifty cartridge for a lighter short barreled rifle in which you intend on obtaining, I would take a hard look at the 338 Federal.

The .338 calibre seems to be a very happy medium and I would love to own one. The .338 Federal looks to be a gem but I am afraid that dies and components would be non-existent here is SA. I suppose that brass could easily be formed from .308 Win brass.

It may be worth considering though.

I had considered adding the .338 Win Mag to my list but I have found that magnum calibres (such as my .375 H&H) use a lot of powder to do something that is done just as well by e.g. a 9.3x62.

I am now of the opinion that for shots under 250m on non-dangerous game, a magnum is unnecessary.

The .338 Sabi is a locally designed version of the .338-06. It is a .30-06 necked up to .338 but with a blow-out shoulder, similar to that of the 9.3x62. I would have to go teh custome route for this though, and funds are lacking at the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by Barstooler:
Defenitely do not buy a 35 Whelen or the 9.3 X 62 support group here on the AR Forums will shun you.

Actually, I would rebarrel the 06 and buy an 7X57 or 8X57 for what you describe - "hoofed animals from 80 kg to 220 kg (176 lbs to 485 lbs) at ranges within 200 metres."

I know that typical "European" loading for both those rounds are better than their enemic US counterparts. Don't know how available 338 Federal or 358 Winchester ammo would be in S. Africa.

Barstooler

I love the 7x5 and have always wanted one. The yare becoming hard to find here. I missed out on the deal of a lifetime last week...a new Zastava 7x57 for R5,250 (660 USD). Had someone not gotten to it before me, we would not be having this discussion right now.

While the 8x57js does not have the sentimental appeal of it's 7mm predecessor, I am sure that it is just as good in ballistic & practical terms, if not better.

'Please Bring Me My Machine Gun ' Great Nic.

It is hard to fill that gap between 270W and .375H&H as the two make a great combination.

For a third generation rifle that old BSA is in great nick.

For a new rifle and knowing the reloading and ammo limitations in your country I will be boreing and sensible and suggest the .308.

However I will also support your idea of a 7x57. Plenty of ammo and components in RSA. Your criteria of less than 200 metres does not exclude the 7x57 with its 175 grain load. The Hornady 175 RNSP Interlock is a cheaper and tough projectile.

Leave the long stuff for the 270 and 130's.
The 7x57 for up close and personal with 175's and pick your shots,
and the .375 for everything else.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
'Please Bring Me My Machine Gun ' Great Nic.

Hehe, thanks mate!

Opportunity has come knocking and I have managed to source a M48 Yugo "Mauser" for R2,700 -- which is about what a Gamo airgun costs new over here.

I am thinking that I should buy it, convert it to a budget sporter by putting on a laminate stock and shortening the barrel to 21". It would be a fun project and something to keep me engaged while I wait for the license to be approved.


The M48's intermediate action would also be a good candidate for re-barrelling to .308 Win (or .338 Federal) at a later stage, should I wish to do so.

The rifle is an M48A which has a milled magazine floor plate and the receiver and barrel serial numbers match. It is one of those which was never issued and is "Military new".

I have done some research and it seems that the M48 is a good rifle. It will need some slicking and polishing, but that is fine.

Just a question though. Will the shortened M48 magazine box accommodate 220 grain hand loads?

I would take a serious look at the 8x57. It gives nothing up to the 30.06. With 160 or 180gr Barnes I don't feel under gunned.

1) rebarrel .30-06

2) .308 is a great cartridge. I would look around for an CZ ZKK 601 or a Sako Forrester. They were great little rifles!

3) 8x57

quote:

Originally posted by Barstooler:
Defenitely do not buy a 35 Whelen or the 9.3 X 62 support group here on the AR Forums will shun you.

Barstooler

I can put that straight based on bullet selection: 35 Whelen will do anything a 30.06 or 9,3 will do decently, the 9,3x62 will try to do what the 375 H&H does. Or put differently the 35 is for those who have a 375 and the 9,3 for those who for some reason dont want one.

Thats my gas for the fire