All right guys, since it has been in the safe without being shot for about 6 years, and then just shot to make sure was feeding a functioning right (5 rounds) time to break out my 308 Norma and get her up and going. (also rest of the guns are out of commission right now so it is hunt with the Norma or hunt with the 375, a bit much for mule deer).

How much velocity is "really necessary" with a 30 cal 180 grain bullet? My stepfather and his brother both have normas as well (one on a springfield like mine, his brothers on a mauser) they had a load that was doing 3100fps in both rifles, but dont' remember so I am going to start all over with 4831SC.

I just don't believe that the push for velocity is as important as everybody thinks. so what I am looking for is feedback on bullet performance on game with 180grain 30cal bullets. For general workup and paper punching I am going to just use Sierras (I have a bunch) but plan on using Northforks for the hunting load.

Thanks guys

Red

At extreme range MV will help you a little. But accuracy is most important unless you're interested in missing faster.

Just my opinion:
I shoot 180gn partitions out of my 30-06 at just over 2700 fps, 168 gn tsx´s at just over 2700, 210 and 225 tsx´s and 215 sgk´s out of my .338 Win Mag at just over 2700, 300 gn tsx´s out of my 375 weatherby (on a brno 602) at just over 2700. As you can see I have tailored my loads to the same velocity. I like this because I always instinctively know trajectory through repetition and have seen no difference in effectiveness on game from going any faster than that.

I would agree that as a practical matter a 180 grain .308 caliber bullet does not have to be driven over 2,700 feet/second to be completely useful and that velocities greater than that are not as useful as some may think.

All that's gained at extra velocity is distance and that is marginal at best.

If one only wants to shoot deer out to a 100 yards or so about 1000 fps well kill them nicely.

I have killed dozens of deer from 15 feet to over 300 yards with a 165 gr at 2400. 300 sav.

If one wants more vel load her up if one doesn't load her down. it is really simple.

My 300wm is just about 3000 with a 180 my 06's are at 2750.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
At extreme range MV will help you a little. But accuracy is most important unless you're interested in missing faster.

Of course. When I had a .308 Norma, I switched from 180 grain bullets at 3100 FPS to Nosler Partition 200 grain bullets, and finally settled on 2880 FPS with those as being plenty fast enough for all NA big game. Recoil was also sifficient - mine had a Neidner steel buttplate.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:I just don't believe that the push for velocity is as important as everybody thinks.

Heresy!! Heresy!! Burn him at the stake!!!

Good to see someone else regard velocity as secondary to accuracy...

Well, this isn't a .300 Magnum by any means, but my Ruger 77 RSI (Mannlicher style stock) in .308 Win.'s best load will only push a 165 gr. bullet to 2550 FPS. Every Mule deer shot with that load has either been bang/flop or no more than a ten yard run before falling. The longest shot taken with that load was a Mule Deer at a lasered 250 yards. The rifle is a bit of a one trick pony as that is about the only decent shooting load I've found for the gun. There is one slightly more accurate, but where I hunt a 180 gr. round nose bullet wouldn't work.
My .300 Win. mag. is loaded to 3050 FPS with a 180 gr. Sierra or 180 gr. Nosler. I got lucky in that the same charges works for both bullets. My 200 gr. load does 2950 FPS and is deadly as hell on elk. Bullet is the 200 gr. Speer Hot-Core.
Paul B.

Red, you are right, velocity is good but not that necessary for hunting big game.

On Friday my dad and I got into some wild hogs up near Mariposa and put a couple on the ground with no problem.

We were both shooting rifles that were not going all that fast in todays world of ultra calibers. Dad was shooting 130 Nosler Partitions from a 270 Winchester at about 3050 fps. I was shooting a 300 WSM with 180 Sierra Pro Hunters at about 2950 fps.

My dads bullet gave complete penetration. Mine did not as I was shooting at the ass end of this hog as he went over a hill. The 180 Sierra entered the left ham and traveled clear up into the hogs lungs. He made it about 30 yards and piled up.

Do not hesitate to use the 180 Sierra on game as I have shot several hogs with them and they work just fine.

Magnums & the extra vel. they bring allow you to reach out a bit farther or use heavy bullets & still have good bullet perf. If you're hunting doesn't take you much past 300yds & you only want to shoot 160gr bullets, then .308wcf will do. If you want to stretch the distance to 400yds+, then a 180gr bullet @ 3000fps+ makes sense.

I have more than one customer who has complained that my accuracy loads I've worked up for them don't "go fast enough." Doesn't seem to matter if it is a 140 gr out of a 7-08 at 2800 or a 150 out of an -06, if it isn't going at least 3000fps, it is too slow. Now, at the same time, none of them has had any problem killing what they shot at either. That is my defense--shoot 'em where they live and they die, quickly.

quote:

I have more than one customer who has complained that my accuracy loads I've worked up for them don't "go fast enough.

Once upon a time, I worked at a gunshop that did custom loading. (In the days before everyone owned a chronograph!!)

We developed accurate ammo for people's rifles on an individual basis, but never told anyone what the MV of their ammo was. They knew it shot well, and we stayed pretty far away from maximum loads.....

Dago

Accuarcy wins every time. Best 1000 yard rounds out there? .308 Win and .300 H&H The difference in drop is minimal under 250m and over that range you should have a rangefinder and then who cares? Tell me the range and I'll hit it with a .308 win every time.

Ask any long range competition shooter though and doping the wind is critical to score. How do you dope the wind in the bush? I have tried long range shooting without wind flags, and anything much above 500m is impossible even with the worlds most accurate rifle. If you want to reduce the wind effect need to move up to a .338 Lapua or .50 BMG

A bullet is worthless absent velocity. Agreed?

Imparting velocity to a bullet does two things for the shooter:

1. Gives the bullet kinetic energy, which is necessary to inflict trauma on the game, and thus cause death, reducing the game to the possession of the shooter.

2. Allows the shooter to actually hit the target, with (all things being equal) the greater the velocity the easier with which to hit. A parallel issue with this is that the greater the velocity, the greater the distance at which the same kinetic energy can be delivered.

How much velocity is necessary for a 180 grain .30 caliber bullet? Well, how far away is your game, how large is it, how is your bullet constructed, how much recoil can you take without negatively affecting your shooting, how much, how much, how much . . .

Bottom line: Most 180 grain .30 caliber bullets perform appropriately (expand, but still maintain structural integrity) somewhere between 2000 and 3000 fps terminal velocity. Adjust your load accordingly, depending on the factors in the above paragraph.

As for me, my son and I will hunt elk once again this fall in Colorado. One of us will use a .30 Nosler Partition at a MV of 2750 fps, and the other an identical bullet at 3030 fps. I would be less comfortable with the former if it were much slower, and wouldn't give you a nickel for the latter to be any faster.

On the other hand, were these to be used for shooting little Central Texas whitetails in the brush at 50 yards, I'd be just as happy with 500 to a thousand fps subtracted from the muzzle velocities.

I have quit worshiping at the alter of velocity. A good 250 gr bullet at 2400 fps will do most anythig I want anyplace I'm likely to be. I recently bought a Tikka 300WSM not because it was a fast round but because the rife was light and I'm severly on the down side of 64. In the mountains that extra 1 or 2 pounds makes a hell of a difference. If I had my druthers I'd use a 9.3x62 but it is 3# heavier.

So long as the bullet is doing 2000 fps when it get's to the animal, that's all I care about. If I want to take game at 500 yds, high muzzle velocity is an issue, at 200 yds, don't need to be sizzling at the muzzle.

I'll always take accuracy over an extra 50-100 fps.

I reload for the 308 Norma's ballistic twin, the 30-338. I use 71.3gr of H4831 which give me excellent velocity with my 26" barrel. This is close to the accuracy load listed in Sierra (and I believe, Lyman's) manual.

My hunting load with this load was about 3000fps with a 180gr Partition. It killed efficiently everything it ever hit, in most instances penetrating through and through. I can't recall recoverying any bullets from animals shot with it, or ever missing with it. It will shoot sum-MOA groups consistently.

I'd go for accuracy first because I believe that it will be most accurate at a velocity that will take care of anything that you'd go out to shoot with that caliber. Kudude

WE all are guilty of over thinking this sort of thing. But as I see it a well hit mule deer is not likly to get to far, if you use and apropriate bullet at a speed that will get the job done. With your norma, and a 180 grain, I would think anything from 2700 up should be good, but don't load down to far, you might get a hang fire.
A 150 grain 30/30 slaps um dead prety well as far as I ,m concerned. at what 1300FPS ?
Just hit um in the right spot and you should be fine...tj3006

Velocity? How about working up an accurate load and then shoot it at several known distances and learn where it hits. That old norma will do pretty well at 2800-3000 fps for a loooong way.

The .308 Norma Magnum is a fine cartridge. Will reach very near .300 Win Mag velocities w 4831. Start just a little above the starting loads unless your rifle is "tight."

Work up until you have an accurate load, and then be happy! Velocity above 2800 fps will do just fine, thank you.

180gr at 3000fps +/- depending on how it shoots.

jeffe

I get my rounds to shoot tight groups at 200 yds
If not there at 400 yds for long range rifles.

There isn't but two that go over 3000 fps.

Stonecreek,

quote:

Allows the shooter to actually hit the target, with (all things being equal) the greater the velocity the easier with which to hit.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around your statement. "Easier" at 50 yards? Or 500 yards?

Enlighten me, please.