quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
...when did they get elk in the carolinas?...

It has been about 10-12 years ago. It is a HUGE growing herd which started with a reintroduction in two parts of KY. It went so well that more were added from the Land Between the Lakes area of KY into the very West end of NC. Now they have spread out into the mountains of TN and VA as well.

You can apply for a KY Tag which is $10 to enter the drawing. And I believe the Out of State Tag is about $300EDIT IN: $365 if you are chosen. One of the best bargains in Elk Hunting. You should be able to find links to it at the KY Fish & Wildlife web site.

Lamar, have you seen any 0.458" Bullets Break-Up on an Elk? If so, I'd like to hear about the details of that event.
-----

Where did you go Warrior? Which of the Bullets "you posted a flick of" ever touched an Elk? What were the details of the Elk Kill? How close to the Elk was the shot taken? Where did the Bullet Impact the Elk? How far did the Elkgo after the 0.458" Bullet hit the Elk? How deep was the penetration in the Elk? Did the Elk need to be shot more than once with the 0.458" Jacketed Lead Core Bullets?

Not interested in how the 0.458" Jacketed Lead Core Bullet did in an Elephant, Buffalo, Eland, Gnu, Turtle, Bird or Earth Worm. Your discussion was centered on the typical 0.458" Bullet in an Elk.

Surely you would not mislead folks by "implying" a 0.458" Jacketed Lead Core Bullet Broke-Up in Elk and in reality you have never seen one actually Break-Up in an Elk???

That is the exact same problem shared among warrior, larry, alf and jagter. They all post things which they have ZERO first-hand experience with - as if they do. In many cases, they have drawn wrong conclusions based on something they have read, then post it as if it is true.

Warrior

How true regardsthe 175 gr RN in the 7x57. I would not have a qualms regarding it's performance in big game at reasonable ranges. I have 500 of those bullets and plan on using them in that rifle.

Regards Hot Core;

"

quote:

The only bullshit is that you decide what is bullshit and what not.

"

So very true, which is why much of what he says is the real BS. He has absolutely no concept of what I, Alf, jagtor or you actully know.

Larry Gibson

quote:

With the 175 Hornady RN or SP at 2400 fps, again at 51,000 psi, it makes for a dandy elk or bear cartridge

Larry,

I am sure it can kill with good shot placement and has probably been done with this combination in your valley. However, a Swift A-Frame would be my preference to give me that extra comfort, as it would be tougher when bone is ecountered and its weight retention would be higher, thus terminal momentum would be higher for deeper penetration.

Loaded to 2,400 fps it would impact around 2,200 fps at 100 yds. So it would perform acceptably on broad-side shots on Elk, rather than those risky angled shots, as Elk is rather big. My take would be to load the Hornady bullet only to 2,300 fps and it would even perform better.

A study was done by Gary Sciuchetti, "The Best Hunting Bullet", No. 193, Page 40 to 44 as published in the June 1998 issue of the "Handloader" magazine and this graph depicts very well what I am advocating. Here you can see that conventional bullets perform best between 1,900 and 2,100 fps.



Warrior

Hot Core
You probably know this but there is no harm in repeating it for the benefit of those who do not know Warrior.

He will dodge any question that proves him wrong. See here for proof of this. That is why he has not answered your Elk question.

Anyone who agrees with him is a good guy. Anyone who disagrees with him is talking and is blowing smoke and twisting his words.

Larry I do not know you but when you are siding with Warrior you are tainting yourself with the Warrior brush and that is not good. Be careful of this guy. He will only agree with you aslong as you do not disagree with him.

Hey Rat Motor, I'd suggest that larry isn't mentally capable of understand what you are talking about.

Back in the Elk thread where warrior brought up about 0.458" Conventional Bullets self-destructing - but would not say which one it was - that told me he tends to think and post just like alf, larry and jagter. So, when I mentioned they tend to spread a whole lot of , warrior has proved me AS USUAL - RIGHT AGAIN!!!

All they would have to do is simply post things they have actually "experienced first-hand" and even if it was different than other peoples experiences, that would be fine. But they just can't seem to grasp that spreading will cause someone to call them on it.

I must admit it is nice to see that warrior did not simply go into larry's normal mode of pulling a clinton on us. warrior realized that when questioned about his , all he has said concerning the 0.458" Conventional Bullets and Elk - was indeed .

For those that don't have enough first-hand experience, reading the posts of larry, alf, warrior and jagter generally just leads them down the wrong trail. It might take awhile, but the Beginners eventually figure it out that they have been flim-flammed.
-----

I really don't understand "why" there are not more experienced people willing to call the Fool Four on their

Hey Warrior
Did you put up the right chart for us to look at? You say

quote:

Here you can see that conventional bullets perform best between 1,900 and 2,100 fps.

But on the chart I see

Nosler Ballistic Tip is between 15.5" and 14.5" from 1900fps to 2400fps
Sierra Game King is between 13.5" and 14.5" from 2100fps to 2800fps
Speer Spitzer is between 17.75" and 15" from 2000fps to 2400fps

Only the Hornady Interlock is best from 1900fps to 2100fps but still at a very good 15" at 2400fps.

I see it is true that you only see the parts that support your point of view and you are blind to the rest of the evidence that proves you are mostly wrong.


Hot Core
Warrior says

quote:

You are the one that is ignorant and full of bullshit in believing that conventional .458 bullets cannot breakup on game. Here are some pics for you. Claw bullets that failed on game - the first 3 bullets come out of game and the 4 th one is another Claw bullet that has been sectioned.

Elsewhere he has said that Claw bullets are excellent at slow speeds and for higher speeds they make a 2mm jacketed bullet that is also very good. I found a post where he rated Claw bullets better than Sierra Game Kings. Now he shows us pictures of claw bullets and puts up a chart that shows the opposite. I am sure he makes all this up as he goes along and forgets what he has said previously because no real opinion has formed. As you say: That is what happens when second hand information is repeated rather than first hand experience reported.

Larry,

You will notice that Rat Motor has not made a single contribution in any of his posts. However he will argue over things he has no personal knowledge of. His post just again shows that very clearly. He is in a confused state. He is just a rabble rouser. I have to clear up the mess that he created, as the novices might just spot his unbelievable bullshit.

Idiot's version:

Claw bullets with standard jackets perform well at low impact velocities accompanied with low momentum (Eg 7x57 mm)

Claw bullets with standard jackets perform badly at low impact velocities accompanied with high momentum (Eg .458 Lott)

Claw bullets with standard jackets perform even worse at high impact velocities accompanied with high momentum (Eg .375 H&H)

Claw bullets with thick jackets (2 mm) perform very well as I tested them in my 9,3x62 mm at intermediate momentum.

I have not tested the thick-jacketed version at high velocity and thus higher momentum, but they will be a damn side better than the overly soft thin-jacketed version.

So, let there be no confusion or misunderstanding. I have tested these bullets (first hand) in a 7x57, .303 Br, 9,3x62, .375 H&H and a .458 Lott. I base my conclusions on these tests. Due to the mix of copper to lead in a particular caliber, jacket thickness, size of the lead opening at the tip, and the impact force (momentum), each caliber bullet has to be tested to see if it meets your standard. Whilst I have gone to the trouble to test these bullets, Rat Motor only spews bullshit and is unable to interpret what I have said, and gets himself in such a knot that I am dumbfounded.

Conventional non-bonded bullets are brittle at higher velocities, and as such will lose more weight progressively as the velocity goes up or the momentum goes up. This is fairly simple. Anyone can go do this test and see if it is so, but armchair 'wizkids' like Rat Motor, who only owns one rifle, can sit on his ass and argue the toss. Even worse than the weight loss is the concommitant shattering and fragmentation of lead particles that contaminate the animal at those higher velocities. When a bullet shatters (and thus lose its momentum) penetration is invariably shallow and that poses an obvious risk.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Photo of 7 mm bullets shot into a wetpack of newspaper at 25 yds:



Left to right:
175 gr Barnes-X bullet - 100% weight retention
160 gr Nosler Partition - lost its front core
175 gr Claw bond-core bullet - bonded core peels with copper jacket to form more sturdy petals
175 gr Sierra Game King bullet - lost all its lead, only the jacket remained.

Clearly bullet performance differ drastically.

Warrior

The last bullet is a Sierra Gameking bullet - 28% weight retention, lose its core completely, only the jacket could be retrieved, pentration was shallow. And all that at 7x57 velocities at 25 yards.

Clearly the Claw bullet (second last) performed bettter, but is beginning to show its sofness as it is in the beginning of the over-expansion stage. Now take this progressively up to 30-06 and 300 Win Mag velocities and see where you end up !!!

Furthermore, conventional bullets only form reasonable mushrooms at low velocity. At high velocities the petals break off, and the pieces that remain lay close to the shank, unlike what we see in controlled expansion bullets.

Warrior

Warrior says

quote:

Here you can see that conventional bullets perform best between 1,900 and 2,100 fps.

Rat Motor calls him on the obvious

quote:

But on the chart I see
Nosler Ballistic Tip is between 15.5" and 14.5" from 1900fps to 2400fps
Sierra Game King is between 13.5" and 14.5" from 2100fps to 2800fps
Speer Spitzer is between 17.75" and 15" from 2000fps to 2400fps

Only the Hornady Interlock is best from 1900fps to 2100fps but still at a very good 15" at 2400fps.

Warrior dodges the issue with a personal attack

quote:

You will notice that Rat Motor has not made a single contribution in any of his posts. However he will argue over things he has no personal knowledge of. His post just again shows that very clearly. He is in a confused state. He is just a rabble rouser.

Once again Warrior delivers absolute proof that

quote:

He will dodge any question that proves him wrong. See here for proof of this.

Hey Warrior
The facts show that you are confused about the chart you posted and I am very clear on that. When are you going to stop dodging the questions you are asked hey? My experience has been that someone who dodges a question does so because he does not know the answer. Stop pretending and admit that you are just a cardboard front and get your jollys off by pretending to be a big expert.

Hot Core wrote:

quote:

For those that don't have enough first-hand experience, reading the posts of larry, alf, warrior and jagter generally just leads them down the wrong trail.

I really don't understand "why" there are not more experienced people willing to call the Fool Four on their

Stop trying to understand, it's not a skill you have or ever will master

The experienced people on this forum realized that you represent the S-part in this abbreviation

Especially after you didn't even realized what BS you were spreading in this sick story of yours -
Jagter wrote:

quote:

In your truck story a lot of extra 'pressure' or force was added in the second time around to get that truck pass the 12 feet mark it reached in the first attempt.

It surprises me that you of all people didn't realize it the moment you wrote that BS story.

Alf questioned your so-called extended experience even many moons ago too -

quote:

ALF
one of us

Posted 25 April 2006 19:16 Hide Post
Hotcore:

Would you be so kind as to expose to us your extensive first hand experience then?

Posts: 5196 | Registered: 16 August 2000

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
...He has absolutely no concept of what I, Alf, jagtor or you actully know. ...

I'm actually surprised that a guy so brilliant would make such an error. Spelling errors on my part are quite normal, but it sure is strange to see larry post such an ERROR - not! Says it all.
-----

Hey Rat Motor, Never heard of "Claw Bullets". Who makes them?
-----

It does seem that warrior has chosen not to tell us "which" Bullet hit the Elk that he contributed so much about.

Hot Core
Claw bullets are made in South Africa. I bought some for my 308 but they would not group at all and I gave the rest to a friend with a 30-06. He sorted them into 5 groups that were similar in appearance but also could still not shoot acceptable groups with them so we did not use them for hunting. We figured that bullets that did not all look the same or weigh the same or were not the same length probably had something to do with it. Maybe our idiot status caused us to have higher standards than Warrior.

You must assume that Warrior has probably not shot at an elk in his life. Probably has not even seen a live one so he has no option but to dodge as only he can.

Thanks RM, I've never seen nor heard of "Claw Bullets".

I do see another member of the Fool Four has made an appearance with more ignorance.

There is no perfect bullet..anything made by man is prone to fail and bullets can and will fail if you push them too fast or too close can be too fast for bullet integrity..

I don't see that Nosler as a failure just because it lost its core, the core tears up a lot of animal and the base still shows good expansion without the core and I don't think anyone can deny the effectiveness of the Nosler..on the other hand I have never seen a Swift fail to make a perfect muchroom but they are so smooth that they don't do a lot of internal damage at times, and plainsgame will run quit a ways..The Barnes X is one of the favored bullets we have today, but I have seen them fail to open, bend, and show the nose pinched together, when they work the work magnificently but when they fail, they fail miserably..

If you stop and think what is required of a modern bullet, its mind boggleing but the fact is all the manufacturers do a grand job..Most of you were not around when an expanding bullet failed more often than it worked, but it still killed the game most of the time. Today is much better...

quote:

I don't see that Nosler as a failure just because it lost its core, the core tears up a lot of animal and the base still shows good expansion without the core and I don't think anyone can deny the effectiveness of the Nosler

I have always been under the impression that the Nosler Partition bullet is INTENDED BY THE DESIGNER to lose the front core, while the rear portion retains sufficient weight to penetrate quite deeply after the fornt core has exploded, doing great damage AFTER enough penetration to reach vital organs. At least, when I have traced out wound channels made by them, the appearance of the innards of the critter suggested that this is what happened.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

quote:

I don't see that Nosler as a failure just because it lost its core, the core tears up a lot of animal and the base still shows good expansion without the core and I don't think anyone can deny the effectiveness of the Nosler

I have always been under the impression that the Nosler Partition bullet is INTENDED BY THE DESIGNER to lose the front core,

I, for one, strongly disagree....this is a failing of the bullet and it happens way too often. For this reason the Swift A-Frame is a vastly superior bullet.

I won't argue that the partition is a worthless bullet as the weight of the rear core does drive the bullet enough to produce a fair amount of penetration but I wouldn't trade Swift A-Frames for Nosler partitions ever!

Rat Moto

I'm not "siding" with anyone, I'm talking of the 7x57 and it's capabilities with 175 gr RNs. That performance is rather well documented.

Larry Gibson

Hey Lamar, That Out of State Elk Tag for KY is actually $365.

Nice kayak and fishing report Hot Core. roger

Not nearly as exciting as some of the folks expected. Sure was nice to be pulled around by a Fish though.

After those folks mentioned having a BIG`UN "ski" me along, I wondered what it would be like to catch one of those Halibuts like you catch in a Kayak.

Do you use a Samurai Sword to filet them? Or just use a 7x57mm with H414?(Sure don't want to skew the thread. )

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
?(Sure don't want to skew the thread. )

Too late for that three pages ago! roger

The number one reason for bullet failure is jacket/core separations in conventional bullets, as they are not bonded and once the "softer" lead core separates from the copper jacket that is supposed to protect the bullet's integrity, the lead core (containing 3% antimony making it harder and thus more brittle as opposed to pure lead that is more pliable) shatters at high velocity. In addition, conventional bullets have very thin jackets and so they don't provide much protection. That is why this genre of bullet does its best work down range, when the bullet has slowed down to around 1,900 to 2,000 fps. With faster calibers today, and most game being shot under 200 yards, it does not make for a reliable choice of a hunting bullet. Many hunters can testify to the break-up of conventional bullets at close range on game much smaller than Elk. Koos Barnard wrote a report on this issue in the Man magnum some years ago, first on the 30-06 Spr and then on the 375 H&H with the use of conventional PMP bullets.

For this very reason most ammo manufacturers (Norma, Lapua, Nosler, Hornady, etc.) have lately been offering bond-core bullets with thicker jackets for greater bullet integrity. This is a level up from the conventional bullet, but still does not equal the level of "controlled expansion bullets" (CEB's) that will more reliably arrest expansion at a given point in time, like the Swift A-Frames, NF's, TBBC bullets and Rhino Solid Shanks. This is achieved by either a partition or a solid shank and even progressively thicker jackets. These CEB's makes for a much better choice on bigger game such as Elk or Kudu & Eland. Picking a conventional bullet amidst the availability of an array of premium-grade bullets for big game, such as Elk, defies logic.

Here is a comparison of the Claw bullet (SA made) that I referred to - the one on the left is the version with the 2 mm jacket and on the right we have the one featuring a 1.1 mm jacket. The difference in terminal performance is clearly visable. The thin jacket bullet retained only 41% of its weight, whereas the other one retained almost all its weight with a perfect muchroom.



Warrior

The problem with some of these CEB bullets is that sometimes they do not expand at all. Sometimes they tumble when they hit and cause one hell of a mess. And if you hit with some of them at short distance they also lose their front ends.

I would rather use a bullet that will expand at low speed for sure and with hits at high speed still stay together with enough weight retention to do what it is supposed to do.

Picking a CEB when these new designs are available defies logic.

One day Warrior he say

quote:

Here you can see that conventional bullets perform best between 1,900 and 2,100 fps.

Three days later Warrior he say

quote:

That is why this genre of bullet does its best work down range, when the bullet has slowed down to around 1,900 to 2,000 fps.

Warrior like old woman who forgets and cannot make up mind.

Warrior also dodge many question about mistakes she make.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
The number one reason for bullet failure is jacket/core separations in conventional bullets, as they are not bonded and once the "softer" lead core separates from the copper jacket that is supposed to protect the bullet's integrity, the lead core (containing 3% antimony making it harder and thus more brittle as opposed to pure lead that is more pliable) shatters at high velocity.

I know this will come as a shock to some of you with very limited actual Hunting experience, but there are some things Hunted where having a somewhat Fragile Bullet is actually an advantage and desirable. And there are things Hunted where having a very Fragile Bullet is the best.

Not everything being Hunted requires a FMJ or a Slow Expansion Bullet. And there are very few animals which require $$$HIGH$$$ Bullets to make an effective Kill.

quote:

In addition, conventional bullets have very thin jackets and so they don't provide much protection.

That makes as much sense as most of the things we get from warrior, larry, alf, and jagter. I'll go out on a limb and "guess" he actually meant penetration. Not all Conventional Bullets have Thin Jackets. The ones that do have Thin Jackets have Killed, and will continue to Kill more Deer, Hog and Black Bears than ALL OTHER $$$HIGH$$$ Premium Bullets combined. The reason for thet is quite simple - they work as Designed and Kill very well when used properly.

quote:

...With faster calibers today, and most game being shot under 200 yards, it does not make for a reliable choice of a hunting bullet.

quote:

Many hunters can testify to the break-up of conventional bullets at close range on game much smaller than Elk.

This is a situation where warrior is skewing the truth with a known Fact. Yes, some Hunters have seen Bullets "break-up" - generally by seeing it inside the dead animal.

I'm not saying there is no use for Premium Bullets, I even use them myself when the situation calls for them. But warrior actually believes it is pretty much impossible to Kill anything with a good old Standard Grade Bullet. And of course, that is the purest form of non-experienced

quote:

But warrior actually believes it is pretty much impossible to Kill anything with a good old Standard Grade Bullet. And of course, that is the purest form of non-experienced

Hot Core,

You make a postulate and then project it onto me, as if it is fact. You say I "actually believe" - only you can talk such utter bullshit and probably expects other people to believe you. Everybody knows that before we had premuim-grade bullets, we had to use conventional bullets, that is to say if you hunted before the Nosler Partition bullet came out that started the revolution for most. Some of us has moved on and it seems that some cling to the past. You are very quick with your statements about other people and their limited hunting experience in a process to elevate yourself above us poor mortals. How conceited can you get?

Furthermore, it is equally well known that broadside lung-shots drop game like they were struck by lightning. Yes that is effective, but you still sit with the negative of lead contamination which reaches further than you imagine. So the conventional bullet is not VERSATILE nor a wise choice for the meat hunter. It is about options, if you could understand that.

Furthermore, conventional bullets must be used in its effective operating window, yes then it works and that is what I have stated, as if I did not make it absolutely clear. That is why I stated that it does its best work down range after the bullet has slowed down. Used wisely it can get the job done. So, please do not accuse me of believing that that it is "pretty much impossible to Kill anything". Your kind of reasoning is either retarded or you just want to make willfull accusations to misconstrue the facts. You are a real snake to say the least.

Warrior

Hey Warrior

quote:

Your kind of reasoning is either retarded or you just want to make willfull accusations to misconstrue the facts.

That is yourself you describe here not Hot Core. But no matter how much you rant it will not draw attention away from the fact that you still have a bunch of dodges to account for.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
...you still sit with the negative of lead contamination which reaches further than you imagine. So the conventional bullet is not VERSATILE nor a wise choice for the meat hunter.

Lets see, how can I say this so it makes the most logical sense, ah yes - simply more pure

quote:

It is about options, if you could understand that.

No folks, warrior is not discussing "options" at all. He is degrading the good old Convential Bullet which has Killed EVERYTHING on the planet. He is so inexperienced he really believes EVERYTHING needs an Expanding Solid to Kill it - more pure
-----

Which of the Bullets in the flick touched an Elk??? Ah yes, caught in your own pure

quote:

He is so inexperienced he really believes EVERYTHING needs an Expanding Solid to Kill it

More willful accusations to misconstrue the facts - only from Hot Core.

Who is talking about everything?
Who is talking about killing, per se?
None of these items are under debate, and this after a lengthy & detailed explanation.
But Hot Core will conjure them up.

Then of course only Hot Core is experienced enough, in his elevated position, and I am so inexperienced, as judged by his psychic ability to know exactly what experience I have.

This kind of reasoning, by introducing his own utterly wrongful postulates, makes any further discussion futile.

I repeat, this is what I said ... "Furthermore, conventional bullets must be used in its effective operating window, yes then it works and that is what I have stated, as if I did not make it absolutely clear." How many times must I actually repeat this? It should be clear to everyone that Hot Core is just full of SHIT.

Warrior

Hey Warrior
This pearl of wisdom from you is quite something.

quote:

Furthermore, conventional bullets must be used in its effective operating window

Is it not so that ALL bullets must be used within their effective operating range? Is it also not so that the wider the operating range is the more versatile the bullet is? In a manner of speaking the bullet with the widest window of application is the one that serves best over the widest range of impact speeds.

The bullet I use now expands without fail from 1600 fps and is good up to any speed I can possibly get from my 308. I have not hit anything at point blank range but I have seen 308 bullets recovered from animals that were hit at close range and they are good and do the job in admirable manner.

According to you jacketed lead bullets are good from 1900 to 2100.(Although the facts you presented prove otherwise) Bonded core bullets are good from somewhere more than 1900 to 2600fps.(You are not very clear on this and change your mind frequently)

Mine are good from 1600 to 3000. It is a no brainer.

I see you still dodge the questions that make life hard for you and anyone who disagrees with you still twists your words.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
...of course ... Hot Core is experienced ...(blah blah blah)..., and I am so inexperienced, ...

Finally something I can agree with from warrior.

Hey RM, Which of the excellent Conventional Design, Standard Grade Bullets was it in warriors flicks that actually "broke-up" on Elk???

Well I have found the Ballistic tip to be a fine deer bullet that exits and quickly kills deer. The heavier for caliber Sierra's do so also. My trophy hunting is usually done with Partitions and there is nothing wrong with that bullet. The Speer Hotcor is the best all around standard style bullet with Hornady bullets being next. In 35 years of hunting bullet failure has been so rare I can only recall it happening twice and both times I used the bullet outside it's window of performance.

rickt300

As you said, it doesn't take much of a rifle or much of a bullet to kill deer. Pretty much anything will work from .223 up. The BT's and Sierras work great on even big whitetails.

Hot Core

quote:

Which of the excellent Conventional Design, Standard Grade Bullets was it in warriors flicks that actually "broke-up" on Elk???

Have you not noticed that he puts up pictures and then ads captions or comments that are completely wrong. Look at the bullet performance chart he posted and the comment he made that does not match at all. He probably did the same with the Elk bullets. There are no Elk in SA so the only possibility is that he shot one in a zoo. Maybe that explains why there isnt an Elk to be found in our zoos either. Warrior shot it.

quote:

According to you jacketed lead bullets are good from 1900 to 2100.(Although the facts you presented prove otherwise)

Rat Motor,

Your inexperience is excused. I have tested and experienced conventional bullets well enough and my comments are in line with that. You misread the graph, it does not give you other variables such as weight retention, expansion and state of petals and most important the mess high velocity creates in animals - that you do not see on the graph. Relook at the graph and you will see there is no point to have a higher impact velocity than between 1900 and 2000 fps.


Other test done by gun authors came to the same conclusion that the very best performance comes between 1900 and 2000 fps. I have quoted these guys, go look at their work and then come back more informed before you shoot your mouth of qand show your ignorance in grandeur.

For your own educartion gos shoot conventional bullets at:

1900 fps, then jump in increments of 200 fps till you reach the "magic" 2,800 fps that you referred to. Then I want you to publish your report and pictures. Just use the readily available PMP bullet and then I can quote you in future as an authoritive reference on this matter. Could you do that for us please.

Thanks
Warrior

Hey Warrior
Major duck and dive hey?

The chart you put up says PENETRATION at the top. Now you duck and dive by twisting your own words and blowing your own smoke

quote:

For your own educartion gos shoot conventional bullets

Educartion?? Anyway I dont have to do that. Been there done it. And why would 2800 fps be magical? It is right there in the chart you put up. The Sierra bullets gave better penetration at 2800 than at 2100. It is very obvious you only see the parts that you prefer to see and the rest magically disappears hey.

quote:

1900 fps, then jump in increments of 200 fps till you reach the "magic" 2,800 fps

By the way if you start at 1900 fps and jump in increments of 200 fps how do you get to 2800 fps?


I am not surprised that you have so much trouble making sense when you post. Cmon admit it. Numbers confuse you.


Now about those other dodges you have been avoiding. Any answers yet?

Hey RM, It does seem he blowharded about good old, Conventional-Design, Standard-Grade Bullets blowing-up on Elk, when in reality, he never actually saw one touch an Elk. Perhaps that is just a normal part of Educartion where warrior comes from. But, it sure looks like pure old to me.

And yet when he is called on it, it seems to upset him, and causes him to be tongue-tied about the truth. Can't just admit he is misleading folks with his huge lack of first-hand experience.
-----

You will have to carry on without me, I believe I made my points:
1. warrior claims things that are not true.(aka posts misleading )
2. larry claims people are Liers that he does not know.(Result - proven to be the actual Lier himself - pitiful!)
3. larry claims he knows what psi his Loads are with a non-calibrated, guessed at dimension and fudge factored "Haphazard SGS", when he doesn't even understand how far off the Variances can skew the results.
4. alf doesn't have a clue concerning Ballistics - any Beginner can realize it by reading his posts that don't apply to the subject.
5. jagter is always good for a

And the 7x57mouser is a fine cartridge. Almost as good as a 308Win!

quote:

.....the velocity is far more a factor of the area under the pressure-time curve of the duration of the bullet in the barrel than it is of the chamber pressure.

(Not your statement - - but vapodog trying to cover up for you!!!)

Your next story as well as what Alf asked you long ago -

quote:

Especially after you didn't even realized what BS you were spreading in this sick story of yours -
Jagter wrote:

quote:
In your truck story a lot of extra 'pressure' or force was added in the second time around to get that truck pass the 12 feet mark it reached in the first attempt.

It surprises me that you of all people didn't realize it the moment you wrote that BS story.



Alf questioned your so-called extended experience even many moons ago too -

quote:
ALF
one of us

Posted 25 April 2006 19:16 Hide Post
Hotcore:

Would you be so kind as to expose to us your extensive first hand experience then?

Posts: 5196 | Registered: 16 August 2000

spell it out clearly why you will never, ever understand anything about the specific subject and any other subject for that matter.

It amazes me how the bullet collectors have been scamed with the perfect mushroom syndrome when in fact some of the best bullets in the world are designed to blow the front end off such as the tig and tug..the Nosler will loose the front portion but still gives you a perfect muchroom with the part that is left, and looks much the same as a BarnesX...

The Swift will always give you a wonderful little mushroom, with a bulged belly and the end result is a smooth round ball that doesn't always perform at its best..

I base my bullet choice on using them on a lot of kills on big game, and the Nosler rates real high for me..I think some have shot more paper than game and read too many gun rags..Like Ross Seyfried said in one of his articles anyone that does not like Nosler bullets, just hasn't hunted much.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I base my bullet choice on using them on a lot of kills on big game, and the Nosler rates real high for me..I think some have shot more paper than game and read too many gun rags..Like Ross Seyfried said in one of his articles anyone that does not like Nosler bullets, just hasn't hunted much.

10-4 loud and clear. roger

I like the partitions too, just not in the smaller diameters.