Everything I read says the 7mm-08 is better ballisticly than the 308. When I plug in the data for the same weight bullet with the BC and the muzzle velocity in my ballistics program, the 7mm-08 does not beat the 308. Can someone shed some light on this for me?

quote:

Originally posted by thirtycal:
Can someone shed some light on this for me?

No. Not really.

I've done exactly the same paper ballistics punching as you have with a variety of different bullets and co-efficients. I pretty much found no difference on paper between the two.

BTW, I did start a thread a year ago on this very topic...pretty much the common concensus was that there is no real difference between the two.

The .308 has always been the red headed step child of the 30-06 and as such, has always sat below the salt. Like the .243, the folks that do shoot them, swear by them and claim all sorts of mystical properties that defy physics. Obviously, I've never owned one and can't compare them. But I've owned 7-08's since they were wildcats. My first one had "7mm-.308" etched on the barrel. I currently own 3 and so my information is hands on. They give an excellent balance of velecity and weight of metal. Using a 140gr NP @2900fps my son made our longest shot on a mulie: a bit less than 300yards. This is with a modest recoil. Having other rifles, I've never elk hunted with the 7-08 but if it was my only rifle, I'd load up some 160's @2500fps and go elk hunting. They are highly accurate and easy to reload for. If you like to tinker with finding THE ideal reload combination, the 7-08 is something of a disappointment since it will give you good accuracy with any number of powders and bullets. The .308 was almost guarenteed to be a success since it was a military round so shooters were sure of a ample supply of brass and components. The 7-08 began life as a wildcat and gained it reputation one shooter at a time and was around for quite a while before Remington standardized it. It is now a standard chambering amongst the several major rifle manufacturers. That is not true of the .308.
I think it is one of the most nearly perfect rifles for medium sized game there is.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
The .308 has always been the red headed step child of the 30-06 and as such, has always sat below the salt. .

IMHO that's where they both belong. Neither has contributed much that was new to the Sports Man, that hadn't already existed for over a 100 years. Even as a military cartridge the .308 was a mistake. roger

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
The .308 has always been the red headed step child of the 30-06 and as such, has always sat below the salt. Like the .243, the folks that do shoot them, swear by them and claim all sorts of mystical properties that defy physics. Obviously, I've never owned one and can't compare them. But I've owned 7-08's since they were wildcats. My first one had "7mm-.308" etched on the barrel. I currently own 3 and so my information is hands on. They give an excellent balance of velecity and weight of metal. Using a 140gr NP @2900fps my son made our longest shot on a mulie: a bit less than 300yards. This is with a modest recoil. Having other rifles, I've never elk hunted with the 7-08 but if it was my only rifle, I'd load up some 160's @2500fps and go elk hunting. They are highly accurate and easy to reload for. If you like to tinker with finding THE ideal reload combination, the 7-08 is something of a disappointment since it will give you good accuracy with any number of powders and bullets. The .308 was almost guarenteed to be a success since it was a military round so shooters were sure of a ample supply of brass and components. The 7-08 began life as a wildcat and gained it reputation one shooter at a time and was around for quite a while before Remington standardized it. It is now a standard chambering amongst the several major rifle manufacturers. That is not true of the .308.
I think it is one of the most nearly perfect rifles for medium sized game there is.

My son uses 140 gr. A-Frames with RL19 at about 2850 fps, so far he's bagged two elk with that setup.

Thanks for the info, but I still do not see how the 7-08 beats the 308. All my reloading manuals have a higher MV for the 308, using the same bullet a Sierra 150g sbt, which to me, and the data I retrieved from the program means better downrange performance. The 7mm-08 has a higher BC .436 and the 308 is .380. The program says the 308 if flatter shooting (not by much) and carries more energy. I am comparing apples to apples same bullet, same powder, same gun. I am not using the 140g bullet maost people are talking about.

7mm-08:
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 2700 fps 2428 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in -0.00 in
25 yds 0.19 in 2650 fps 2339 fpe 0.028 sec 0.15 in -0.56 in 0.06 in
50 yds 1.58 in 2601 fps 2253 fpe 0.057 sec 0.61 in -0.44 in 0.20 in
75 yds 2.65 in 2552 fps 2169 fpe 0.086 sec 1.39 in -0.24 in 0.42 in
100 yds 3.39 in 2504 fps 2088 fpe 0.115 sec 2.50 in 0.04 in 0.72 in
125 yds 3.78 in 2456 fps 2009 fpe 0.145 sec 3.96 in 0.43 in 1.15 in
150 yds 3.82 in 2409 fps 1933 fpe 0.176 sec 5.76 in 0.91 in 1.66 in
175 yds 3.47 in 2362 fps 1859 fpe 0.207 sec 7.95 in 1.49 in 2.29 in
200 yds 2.73 in 2316 fps 1787 fpe 0.240 sec 10.54 in 2.19 in 3.06 in
225 yds 1.58 in 2271 fps 1717 fpe 0.272 sec 13.54 in 3.01 in 3.95 in
250 yds 0.00 in 2226 fps 1650 fpe 0.306 sec 16.96 in 3.95 in 4.97 in
275 yds -2.02 in 2181 fps 1584 fpe 0.340 sec 20.83 in 5.02 in 6.09 in
300 yds -4.49 in 2137 fps 1521 fpe 0.375 sec 25.15 in 6.24 in 7.34 in

308:
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 2871 fps 2745 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds 0.04 in 2812 fps 2633 fpe 0.026 sec 0.13 in -0.57 in 0.06 in
50 yds 1.30 in 2753 fps 2524 fpe 0.053 sec 0.54 in -0.46 in 0.22 in
75 yds 2.28 in 2695 fps 2420 fpe 0.081 sec 1.24 in -0.28 in 0.48 in
100 yds 2.96 in 2638 fps 2318 fpe 0.109 sec 2.24 in -0.02 in 0.85 in
125 yds 3.32 in 2582 fps 2220 fpe 0.138 sec 3.55 in 0.33 in 1.30 in
150 yds 3.37 in 2526 fps 2126 fpe 0.167 sec 5.18 in 0.76 in 1.85 in
175 yds 3.07 in 2472 fps 2034 fpe 0.197 sec 7.15 in 1.29 in 2.53 in
200 yds 2.44 in 2417 fps 1946 fpe 0.228 sec 9.46 in 1.92 in 3.30 in
225 yds 1.42 in 2364 fps 1861 fpe 0.259 sec 12.15 in 2.66 in 4.21 in
250 yds -0.00 in 2311 fps 1778 fpe 0.291 sec 15.25 in 3.52 in 5.28 in
275 yds -1.84 in 2259 fps 1699 fpe 0.324 sec 18.76 in 4.51 in 6.48 in
300 yds -4.10 in 2207 fps 1622 fpe 0.358 sec 22.70 in 5.63 in 7.83 in
This is just data I cut and pasted here from the program, am I reading something wrong?

I hope this data reads well on the post.

Thanks again

the 7mm bullet is longer gives it a bit more penetration and a bit sleeker bullet.
thats about it.
the 7-08 is just an updated higher pressure 7x57.
but really doesn't offer more if you are a handloader.
if you buy factory you get most of what the loader can do with the x57.
not good bad right wrong just a good round that works.
why freak about a .002 bc difference you can't hold that well when hunting anyways.

out to HUNTING ranges, the only difference in them is choice .. and I love them both

The differences show up at longer ranges, especially in wind drift because of the higher b.c. You are correct out to 300 yards there is no difference.

I have both of these dandy little rounds and handload for both.The only real difference in the two is case capacity when you are talking heavy-ish bullets.

You see, with the .308 you can load 180 grn. bullets without loosing case capacity but you can't load 175 grners in the 7-08 without one of three things. Compressing your load,loosing case capacity or loading an extra long round.

Nothing wrong with any of these things but I wouldn't want to load a 175 grn bullet in a 7-08 any way.......the 140 is the perfect bullet for the 7-08, and the 150 is the perfect bullet for the .308.

Just my $.02

Let's see....I've got three7/08s, and at least half a dozen (probably closer to 10, haven't counted recently) .308s. I have developed a foolproof way to pick which I will take when I want to hunt with one or the other. I grab the one closest to the door of the vault.

If I had to get rid of one or the other, I must confess, I'd get rid of my 7-08s. Why? Well:

- .308 ammo is a LOT easier to come by out in the real boonies.

- So are .30 bullet moulds if it comes to that. (Probably true for gaschecks too.)

- Surplus ammo can be had (most of the time) for the .308. Basically never for the 7/08.

- There is more loading data available for the .308 round.

-Because I spent years competing in high-power matches with the .308 and didn't spend any years shooting metallic silhouettes with the 7/08, my internal computer operates better on "automatique" with the .308 factory cartridges.

- If I wanted to shoot game at over 300 yards, which I don't, I'd use a more powerful, flatter shooting rifle than either one.

But that's just MY choice. You sure can't regularly show any great clear advantage of either one over the other in the field, and both are equally fine for almost every use.

As you probably already know I am a reloader. I think for the little extra punch I'll go with the 308 because with the 180 or 200 bullet it is plenty for black bear around here. This is a rifle for my 14 year old son and we want a cartridge that we don't already have and he loves the short action. He is not shy of the recoil, he was shooting an 06 today, but we have 3 of those.

Thanks for all the replies, it really is a toss up, I just think you get a bit more versatility with the 308, Who knows maybe next year we'll have the 308 and the 7mm-08, you never know!

Stands to reason the 7mm will have improved ballastic coefficient and sectional density numbers in same weight bullets as the .308 because the 7 is smaller in caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by thirtycal:
Thanks for the info, but I still do not see how the 7-08 beats the 308. All my reloading manuals have a higher MV for the 308, using the same bullet a Sierra 150g sbt, which to me, and the data I retrieved from the program means better downrange performance. The 7mm-08 has a higher BC .436 and the 308 is .380. The program says the 308 if flatter shooting (not by much) and carries more energy. I am comparing apples to apples same bullet, same powder, same gun. I am not using the 140g bullet maost people are talking about.

Thanks again

The problem w/ your data is you are not comparing bullets of sim. SD. You can drive a 140gr bullet in the 7-08 faster than a 150gr bullet in the 308, or a 160gr faster than a 180gr. THe 7-08 will have a slight edge @ 400yds & then just gets better after that. Slightly more enregy, slightly less drop & wind drift. Enough to matter in the field, nope. The 7-08 is ballistically superior to the 308, but just barely. What it does allow is a very light wt. rifle w/ little recoil for a sim. performance. Much like the diff. between the 280 & 06. Which is why I would choose the 7-08 over the 308 in a lt.wt. mountain rifle.

Ah, Just get a 7X57. It was doing the job quite well before either of the "children" were born!

The 7x57 is long throated for the classic 175 gr bullet but has a short maazine box. Low velocity and no bullet seating options. A 140 gr is miles off the lands and lighter bullets even worse....give a try to the new 21st century Don....

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
The 7x57 is long throated for the classic 175 gr bullet but has a short maazine box. Low velocity and no bullet seating options. A 140 gr is miles off the lands and lighter bullets even worse....give a try to the new 21st century Don....

I have kind sir. I own a 22 lr, 223, 7mm-08, 270 Winchester, 280 Remington, 30-06 and a 338-06 A.I. By the way, I don't like magnums of any length!

No, I do not own a 7X57. With a modern action
and a new barrel that has been properly throated, it will do the same job as many others when loaded to the same pressures.
Let us not forget that Roy Weatherby used long throats so as to increase cartridge powder while keeping pressures down in an effort to get more velocity? He called it "freebore" didn't he?

I believe the problem with the 7X57 lies in the use of older military actions and military barrels. Anyone using a modern 7X57 with an overly long throat needs a different gunsmith as well as handloaded ammo!

The 7X57 with a properly chambered and throated barrel on a Winchester SA control round feed
action does not need to sit in the back of the bus!

Not sure if I'm addressing your question as stated, but if you're wondering why the 308 can get a bit better inital velocities with comparably sized bullets, I would guess that the increased surface area of the 308 would be responsible. I believe someone else accurately suggested that it's more applicable to compare bullets with corresponding bc's as opposed to weight with these two rounds.

No physics guy here, but it seems to me that with equally weighted bullets and powder charges, the 308 bullet would be faster and more effecient out of the barrel primarily because it has a larger surface area to weight ratio... i.e. more bullet (surface area) in proportion to weight is being pushed on by propellant.

I haven't looked at the charts comparing the two but I would hazard a guess the the inital velocity advantage of the 308 over the 7-08 (again assuming simlar bullet weights and charges) would likely dissipate proportionally to a point along the paths of the bullets... this is conjecture as I'm not real familiar with the bc's, sd's, etc. of the 308, and it's been awhile since I've owned a 7-08.

Regardless, both seem to be fine rounds. I'd go with the 308 if you ever intend to do much elk hunting. Not to say the 7-08 won't do the trick within reasonable range. Turned my little brother into a big game junky a couple of years ago by buying him a Browning BLR in a 7-08 for deer. Later got him a 673 350 remy mag for elk and pigs as well. Needless to say, the 7-08 gets a lot of action and the 350 sits in the closet (one beautiy of the 7-08 is its nearly nonexistent felt recoil, the same can't necessarily be said of the 350).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Slater:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buliwyf:


I believe the problem with the 7X57 lies in the use of older military actions and military barrels. Anyone using a modern 7X57 with an overly long throat needs a different gunsmith as well as handloaded ammo!QUOTE]
Don, I think you relented too soon. As for going into the modern era??? Yes by all means if you want to join those that ae easily swayed by marketing. Two of my 7x57 with military cheap replacement barrels along with two of my deep throated 6.5x55s are just great for hunting.By the way the 6.5x55 is still used in Norse country in competition. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Slater:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buliwyf:


I believe the problem with the 7X57 lies in the use of older military actions and military barrels. Anyone using a modern 7X57 with an overly long throat needs a different gunsmith as well as handloaded ammo!QUOTE]
Don, I think you relented too soon. As for going into the modern era??? Yes by all means if you want to join those that ae easily swayed by marketing. Two of my 7x57 with military cheap replacement barrels along with two of my deep throated 6.5x55s are just great for hunting.By the way the 6.5x55 is still used in Norse country in competition. roger

My intent wasn't to relent, Roger. My point is that some handicap the excellent 7X57 and then complain it isn't "modern" enough. Apples and oranges?

Freebore is not a real problem. Anyone shooting Weatherby calibers should know that.

Now factory ammo loaded for small ring pre-1898 mausers can be a problem even though it doesn't have to be. I used an 1893 with a shortened
military barrel until after I was discharged from the Navy. I know what a 7X57 can do believe me!!

Now that I'm much older, I have been pondering a
7X57 on a Winchester SA controlled round feed action. Handloaders are doing wonders with the ole gal. They say you can never go back.....
watch me!

stillbeeman, the 7/08 is a std. chambering and the same can't be said of the .308???????????????????????????????????? God I love pissing contests. Ok, lets see, what kills, velocity,no, bullet weight, no, bullet construction, depends upon the thread, length of the barrel, sometimes, sectional density, hell yes!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Moorepower:
stillbeeman, the 7/08 is a std. chambering and the same can't be said of the .308???????????????????????????????????? God I love pissing contests. Ok, lets see, what kills, velocity,no, bullet weight, no, bullet construction, depends upon the thread, length of the barrel, sometimes, sectional density, hell yes!!!!

Right you are on all counts! Bullet weight (momentum) versus velocity was the basis of the ongoing feud between Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor. And it will never be settled!!

Used both in different conditions. Not much difference except th 7mm is known and shown to fly truer in a cross wind but not enough to concern many practical hunters. 308 ammo is easier to find which means it's cheaper. So pick your poison.

Aside from the lower recoil of the 7-08, there is a distinct upside - the 308 has the temptation by some to use milsurp ammo on game!

In a blindfold test I would bet you could not tell the dif. in a 7-08/140 vs the .308/150 I would bet on it.

The 7-08 has a clear advantage over the .308 at 140 grains. In fact it takes a 180 for the .308 to catch up but the .308 Winchester does not have the gas for the job. Case to small. Hands down, 7mm-08 is just better.

The only way the 140 7/08 is better than a .308 up to 180 is if you believe that sd is the only thing that kills. If you don't believe a 150 grain .308 will kill anything a 140 grain 7/08, try another bullet,"150 grain". No animal on the planet will feel the greater penetration from that extra .024" compared to the extra 7% of bullet weight, and if it does it will be exactly .024 of a second before it dies. FYI most of my hunting is done by the 7mm variety, but that does not mean I buy into the higher sd is the only thing that kills b.s.

If you are a reloader and have a 300 magnum and a 30-06, I would get a .308

Likewise, if you have a 280 and a 7 Rem Mag, I would get the 7mm-08

No real world difference.

I am partial to the 7mm-8 cuz I like the number 7.

It's a personal preference as above are good comments.

Me, well, I like slimmer women, and bullets....

So, 7/08 over 308, and 6.5 a tad more than 7. 6mms are not bad either.

On big nasty stuff, I want 338 bores.

The 308 w/130 TSX is not bad, over 3k like a 270, and at ranges that most game is shot, I think it's an overlooked bullet.

Though I prefer smaller bores for recoil, trajectory, etc., the 308 is not a bad round and as any round very capable with shot placement and a decent bullet is used.....as 95% of the rounds out there are...

After I try many many other rounds, someday I might decide to see why so many others shoot the plain vanilla 308

I never wanted a 7mm-08. More good 30 caliber bullets available, the 308 does everything I will ever need it to do, out as far as I should be shooting.

If I go smaller, it will be with a 6.5 X 55.

I've "had" 3 708's and now own my first 308 and will never own another 708. Shot 30-06 most of my life or a 7mm mag. Love both but they've been put to the side.

They are both very good cartridges.
I prefer the .308. Let me state right off that there is not much difference beetween them when it comes to deer hunting.
Bot shoot the lighter bullets well.
But I have found that in my experience the .308 will put a 165 grain bullet out a bit faster than a 7mm08 will a 160. Talking about 100 to 150 fps.
So if I were thinking I might want to elk or mose hunt with one or the other , I think the .308 is a better choice.
A funny thing is that there are not so many factory rifles in the .308 any more, I think you would probably find more 7mm08s.
But there is a much larger selection of .308 ammo if you shoot factory stuff.
...tj3006

I have both, and I would go for the 308, but it is probably not better. I have actually loaded the 7-08 with 175 grain bullets. My winchester compact with 20 inch barrel gets 2475 mv with a load of H4350, and it is not compressed. Remington loads the hotter 7-08 as far as I can tell. I had a winchester compact 308, but my best friend talked me out of it. Never crono'ed the 308, and now my son has my other 308 so I guess I am a 7-08 guy. The Remington green box hits about 2750 with 140 grain corelocts in my compact, and my BLR.

I forgot to add I just bought a BAR grade II 30-06 made in Belgium from a country pawn shop, and I will probably boot the 7-08 and 308. I payed about what a Remington 750 is on sale at Cabelas.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
They are both very good cartridges.
I prefer the .308. Let me state right off that there is not much difference beetween them when it comes to deer hunting.
Bot shoot the lighter bullets well.
But I have found that in my experience the .308 will put a 165 grain bullet out a bit faster than a 7mm08 will a 160. Talking about 100 to 150 fps.
So if I were thinking I might want to elk or mose hunt with one or the other , I think the .308 is a better choice.
A funny thing is that there are not so many factory rifles in the .308 any more, I think you would probably find more 7mm08s.
But there is a much larger selection of .308 ammo if you shoot factory stuff.
...tj3006

To compare apples to apples, you need a .308 with a 165 grain bullet and a 7mm with a 140 grain bullet. Both have a sectional density of .248. My son has taken two elk with his 7mm-08 with 140 grain A-Frames, so I don't put too much stock in you need a larger calibre for elk. Shot placement and a premium bullet do it every time.

180 Berger at 2600 fps from a 7mm-08 is gonna stomp all over a 308.

,024 difference? there no stomping, rather a contest of equals,,, the difference in results is the shooter in these... not thye cartridge

I beg to differ. Both Berger VLD's, 180 7mm and 175 .308

7mm-08 at 1k:

32 moa drop
6.2 moa drift
904 ft lbs

308 at 1k:
37.2 moa drop
8.7 moa drop
628 ft lbs


Personally, I consider that a "stomping".

A 7-08 is quieter when moderated as you can use a smaller baffle in the moderator...

I love my 7-08, would quite like to use it for moose.

Tyler .. remeber, i am a big bore shooter ... i think the best use for either, if you want to discuss STOMPIN is to cut the case off at the shoulder, swager to .473, fill it with lead, run it 2300 fps for 6,000 ft/lbs...


in other words, NEITHER of these rounds are stompers, and certainly not as compared to each other... from a remove of .1+ larger bulllets, they are both popguns

from a hunting perspective, the animal wouldnt know the difference

and, for me and my concept of hunting, the distances where that drop and drift matter are NOT hunting, its shooting

i couldnt tell you 5 moa at 500 yards with a 12 power scope.. those things are irrational numbers to me..

if i wanted to snipe, i would use a bigger gun, like you 338 or a 50bmg...

within 300 yards, there's no MEANINGFUL difference for hunting... use about 150gr... more or less as you like, and they kill deer, pigs, and elk dead