My friend shot a WT doe the other day at a measured 20 yards broadside. Shot hit, and ruined, the liver. Deer expired shortly. Factory 140 Powershoks. Wondering why no passthrough. Thoughts?

I have had the same thing happen at close range. Bullet explodes, because it is still moving to fast. If you want pass thoughs shoot Barnes tsx or ttsx

Woodelf says "I have had the same thing happen at close range. Bullet explodes, because it is still moving to fast. If you want pass thoughs shoot Barnes tsx or ttsx"

Why not just use FMJ? I know this is an absurd question, but the point I am making is that one should be more concerned with quick expiration than with bullets whizzing right on through the animal. I have shot a variety of different cup and core bullets on deer and seldom have seen a pass through but I never had to follow a blood trail to recover a wounded animal, well, if I put the bullet where it needed to be. There is one exception, and it was a shot my son made on a whitetail buck. He shot it at about 110-120 yards with a 100 grain Hornady IL from my 243Win, and the bullet passed through the heart and continued on through the other side. I didn't know if we were going to recover that animal. We chased it for about 3/4 mile until it finally dropped. I don't really like pass through shots because the bullet doesn't spend it's energy inside the target animal.

Thanks for the input. I always prefer passthroughs since it is one more hole in the thoracic cavity helping ensure equalization of pressure and subsequent lung collapse if nothing else.

The "expend all it's energy in the animal" theory is invalid; if that were the case, 1000 ft pounds of energy would knock over any animal on the planet. But that is not what happens even on a 125 pound deer. Blue is right; you want as much tissue damage as possible, and also have the bullet pass through if possible. The reason it didn't in his case is because it was so close the bullet expanded to such a large diameter, or even fragmented, and did not have enough momentum to pass through.
FMJ bullets are not the solution either as little tissue damage is done; which is why they are used in military ammo. All this shows that energy is not the Holy Grail of hunting cartridges.
The only criterion is, did the animal die as quickly as I needed it to?

I shot a bull elk in the shoulder at about 75 yards with a 7mm RM and 160 grain Nosler Partition at 3100 fps MV. Bullet did not pass through, it was under the hide on the opposite side. I was happy with the performance of the Nosler.

Stuff happens.

Expansion plus penetration is the hallmark of the good old Nosler Partition.

When that close expansion is awesome and expansion slows a bullet down in a hurry and in many cases fail to give an exit hole..That same bullet at 100 or 200 yard probably would give a high percentage of exits with rib cage shots.

That is a Nosler partition trait..they open fast on cantact and normally give full body penetration and in many case an exit hole.

I pretty much consider it a failure if the bullet doesn't exit.
there are going to be exceptions like hitting a bone at an angle or shooting one too close at 3,000 fps.

18"s is kind of my standard for penetration on soft tissue.
I've seen a lot more and I've seen some stretchy skin make it a couple inches less.
but I really strive for a bullet weight and velocity that gets me that amount on average.

quote:

Originally posted by woodelf:
I have had the same thing happen at close range. Bullet explodes, because it is still moving to fast. If you want pass thoughs shoot Barnes tsx or ttsx

Don't agree, some criticised Sierra bullets as being too soft because they blew up at close range (still killed like lightning) and still killed like lightning at 400 yards too. Can't have a pass through with little expansion at close range and expect full expansion at 400 yards when a bullet has slowed considerably.

I don't mind a pass through but I still want to see some good expansion and damage at longer ranges with good cup and cores such as Sierra are capable of.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
My friend shot a WT doe the other day at a measured 20 yards broadside. Shot hit, and ruined, the liver. Deer expired shortly. Factory 140 Powershoks. Wondering why no passthrough. Thoughts?

I've had the samething happen with that load (moly coated 140gr Powershok)in my 6.5x55mm. As long as the deer went down quickly I never worried about it. Every bullet I found had good expansion with no blow ups. In fact I like that load quite a bit and stock up when it comes on sale.

Regarding velocity I shot a small black bear around two hundred pounds or so a few years back with a 180gr Nosler Partition out of my .300 Weatherby. At 30 yards or so the bullet still had to have been traveling more than 3200 fps. The bullet did not exit and no bones were hit, it was a lung shot. I think excess velocity at some point reduces penetration. The bear traveled no where. I never did find the bullet and really didn't look too hard.

I also have a theory that a light animal actually gives enough at impact to catch the bullet unlike a heavier animal that resists the impact which makes the bullet more likely to exit. I may be way off but I've seen it happen more than once.

I do like two holes if possible but don't get too excited if it doesn't happen.

You'll have way more tissue-displacement and bullet-upset at close ranges. This simply means LESS penetration at close range and MORE penetration at distances with the same exact bullet/load.
I've seen this play out hundreds of time over my 50 years of big game hunting.

Zeke

The only penetration test I ever did with the 7mm/08 was to shoot through the neck of a 180 something pound buck at less than 15 yards.

The bullet was a Nolser Ballistic Tip started at the sedate speed of 2770 fps.

The bullet exited and blew the jugular out onto the highwall the buck was walking adjacent to.

Not really scientific data but no doubt about the penetration performed. One can't really credit the 7-08 independently because I've done the same thing with a Krag.

quote:

I always prefer passthroughs since it is one more hole in the thoracic cavity helping ensure equalization of pressure and subsequent lung collapse if nothing else.

I thought I had heard them all, but that's a novel theory of which I've not heard before.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

I always prefer passthroughs since it is one more hole in the thoracic cavity helping ensure equalization of pressure and subsequent lung collapse if nothing else.

I thought I had heard them all, but that's a novel theory of which I've not heard before.

Just happens to be the theory I subscribe to as well.

I always want to see a pass through. TSX or TTSX is the way forward. Good expansion and pass throughs on most shots. I've recovered a few but not many. Lots of DRT animals in the process. Most of the recovered bullets have been on large animals such as brown bear or buffalo. I do have one from an elk a few years back.

Ive seen pass thrus fail in Barnes bullets on deer and elk and PG..not common but it happens, just like Ive seen the fronts blow off and the bullet becomes a solid..Ive seen the same with most bullets..Ive also seen the exact opposite, bullet penciling through game with no expansion..I had such problems with Barnes X early on, These things happen with all bullets, when they do such too often the bullet makers fix it, end of story, other than that is why we have such good bullets out there today.

I prefer pass throughs to the bullet expending all its energy inside the body cavity. Its puts more blood on the ground and kills just as well if not better..

Dead is dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

I always prefer passthroughs since it is one more hole in the thoracic cavity helping ensure equalization of pressure and subsequent lung collapse if nothing else.

I thought I had heard them all, but that's a novel theory of which I've not heard before.

See no. 4:

https://www.teachengineering.o...orksheet_answers.pdf

http://oac.med.jhmi.edu/res_ph...PleuralPressure.HTML

So, if you equalize pressure by puncturing the thoracic cavity, the lungs eventually collapse. That and punctured lungs fill with blood. So, yes I prefer passthroughs with lung tissue destruction for the above reasons. That is, two holes are better than one.

quote:

Originally posted by woodelf:
I have had the same thing happen at close range. Bullet explodes, because it is still moving to fast. If you want pass thoughs shoot Barnes tsx or ttsx

My group shot three elk last year with TTSX.....bullets were found in two of them.....all were .308 caliber and weights from 165 grain to 180 grain.

Terminal performance with Barnes has been great.....but exit holes are not something guaranteed.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
When that close expansion is awesome and expansion slows a bullet down in a hurry and in many cases fail to give an exit hole..That same bullet at 100 or 200 yard probably would give a high percentage of exits with rib cage shots.

yep .. Townsen Whelen did all kind of tests like this .. that the 30-06 penetrated deeper at longer ranges than point blank and close .. iirc, 150-180 yards was optimum, but it's be at least 15 years since i refreshed my mind on his findings.

what happened, in this case, (2 high likely hood) 1 bullet recovered, high retained weight (75%+) is likely that the bullet wasn't yet "Settled" as they do tend to yaw a bit when leaving the muzzle --- 2 bullet fragmented and tore apart, with a high number of secondaries, causing massive damage .. WIDE but short wound channel.

As Elmer used to say, "you let the air IN" ..from entry and exit wounds, but a recovered animal is success enough in it's own right

Ummm:

As someone who deals with trauma on a daily basis: What is more dangerous and potentially fatal: through and through lung shot able to bleed freely or a small entry wound no exit ?

Ever hear of the term tension pneumothorax (air) or tension hemopneumothorax ( Blood and air) ?

Well if there is a air or air and blood leak on the inside with no way of equalizing the animal / human is in big trouble !

These are medical emergencies and if left untreated rapidly fatal !

We generally will first equalize pressure with the outside by actually creating a communication with the air outside .... after which we will deal with the reinflation of the lung.

Hidden bleeding or air leak in the closed space around the lung it will compress the lung and shut down circulation in short order.

This off course is not applicable to elephant as they have no pleural cavity.

Alf, as you well know, not all thoracic injuries giving hemo/pneumothorax continue to expand.

One small hole more often as not plugs and stops letting air in, giving a stable pneumothorax.

A hemothorax depends on the pressure of the bleed exceeding pleural pressure to expand. So you need to hit a reasonably sized vessel to cause collapse of the lung via hemothorax, and a fairly large one to effect near immediate collapse- to the point that I think the circulatory failure precedes collapse from anoxia due to respiratory failure if one is talking a animal dropping in sight of where it’s shot.

The more area of opening of the cavity, the more likelihood of progression of the pneumothorax and the speed of expansion.

crbutler
Off course and without getting into the semantics of the whole chest trauma thing i just think it is a fallacy to believe that a bleeding wound is "better" than a wound that does not show external bleeding !

For those that are not hunters, the exit holes are not desirable for the quick death of an animal.....it's to leave a much better blood trail to assist in finding the animal after it has been shot.

While I personally have witnessed many extremely quick terminal hits on (mostly) deer …..referred to as DRT.....there is no bullet that can guarantee this......a blood trail is a very helpful way to find the critter if this is not DRT hit.

As to the original question, 7-08 penetration, one can argue that the cartridge doesn't come into the equation, any 7mm cartridge that is capable of firing that particular bullet at the same MV will perform the same. The only variable that could potentially affect penetration of a bullet, and I presume somewhere someone has done some tests in suitable media, is the barrel twist rate at which the bullet is subject too.
Theoretically a bullet spinning faster may expand more than the same bullet at the same velocity but spinning at a slower rate?

So a 140 gr Powershok from a 1:10 twist 7-08 may show greater penetration than a 140 gr Powershok from a 1:8 twist, both starting off at 2900 fps i.e. one hunter is happy with his 7-08 and Federal Powershoks another hunter not so happy with same ammo