Hello All,

I originally posted this 5 years ago on a different site, but thought to show it here for your interest.

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I acquired a 280 O.K.H. experimental rifle built-up by Elmer Keith. It came from a West-Coast Auction with lots of provenance.

The rifle was built up from a Gewehr 98 action, with a 26-1/2'' medium-weight bull barrel. Barrel is marked ''.280-O.K.H.'' (O'Neil, Keith & Hopkins) at the side. It is topped with an Lyman Alaskan All-Weather scope, one of Keith's favorites. Top of barrel is also marked ''280-300-CCC'' (Controlled Combustion Chamber), a later and final chambering by O'Neil. Apparently the 280 O.K.H. is a .300 H&H magnum case reconfigure it to take a .28 cal. 180-grain bullet.

Approximately 450 .280 cal. projectiles and 100 pcs of H&H brass in a small wooden crate were included with the rifle. The crate has a Railway Express label and the top of crate lid is addressed to Elmer Keith, North Fork, Idaho; sides of crate are additionally marked ''C.M. O'Neil, Hopkins, Minn.''.

The North Fork Idaho address is the location of Keith's ranch in the 1930s and early 1940s on the North Fork of the Salmon River near Salmon, Idaho. The rifle corresponds to the years just prior to WWII.

Elmer Keith developed many important firearms calibers. He experimented with many various rifle cartridge configurations, some of which caught on and became famous, and other calibers such as this that became stepping stones to more effective cartridges.


I was able to find the following reference in the May 1960 issue of GUNS, Elmer mentions this rifle specifically.



Whats that? .... Eagles?

Here is what the rifle looks like with its accessories.





The ammo in the picture (4 rounds) is belted. Just a little hard to make out. It is 300 H&H necked down to 280. They are about 3-5/8" long.



You can see that this action was specially altered for this long cartridge. There is a radius cut-out in the side of the receiver ring to accommodate the extra long length of the 280 OKH round. The GEW 98 action was originally designed for the 8x57mm Mauser cartridge with a loaded length of only 3-1/4".



I really enjoy this rifle with its Elmer Keith provenance. I'm still trying to get a little more history about it, if any still exists. Finding a book reference with a picture of the rifle would be the greatest, but another magazine reference would also do nicely.

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As a follow-up: I spent the last 6 hours casting, measuring, photographing, disassembling & reassembling, and trying to get as many details into this discussion as possible.

Please excuse the unorganized introduction of the information; I'm just going to start listing facts as best I can about the rifle and accessories. Hopefully this will address many of the questions raised in previous discussions.

I'll start with the 280 O.K.H. caliber and cases.

Shown below are some of the fired empty cases that came with the rifle. This one box has the load "55g 4350 - 180g" hand written on the side. All the boxes and cases are Western Cartridges Co. 300 H&H primed brass.



The bullets are boxed in 25s and the top of the boxes are ink stamped "CAL. .280 MAG" - "180 GR. C.P." - Bullets measure 0.2885" diameter and 1.272" long and weigh 180 grains.



A chamber cast is shown along side a loaded cartridge. Overall Length of the chamber is 2.840". Overall Length of the case is 2.800". Case shoulder dia is 0.504". Length of the cartridge base to shoulder is 2.210". There is a 0.080" radius joining the neck to shoulder. This case has a single radius only, not a double-radius like a Weatherby case. There is NO radius of the shoulder to body junction. Chamber throat diameter is 0.2890" and the chamber has 1.9375" long freebore. This is a true "freebore" NOT throat erosion.



When you compare similar cases, the 280 O.K.H. falls between the 280 Dubiel and the 280-300-CCC. The Grains-of-Water capacity is shown below each case. Interestingly, the 280 O.K.H. and the 280-300-CCC are both nearly identical in capacity to our modern day 7mm STW being minus -8/10th of one grain, and plus +1/10th of one grain, respectively.



I disassembled the rifle entirely and discovered that the barrel has been set-back. There is an old "280-300-CCC" caliber marking under the wood at what appears to have been the top of the barrel of a previous mounting. It therefore reasons that the current 280 O.K.H. stamping is the last and current caliber.

The rifle's internal magazine box has been altered to take cartridges with an Overall Loaded Length of 3.600" long. And as mentioned earlier, the action port has a clearance cut-out to allow the removal of a loaded round.



The 26-1/2" bull barrel measures 0.875" diameter at the muzzle and 1.250" diameter at the receiver. It is cut with 6 lands and grooves. The unloaded rifle with the 2-1/2 power Lyman All-Weather Alaskan Scope weighs exactly 12-1/2 pounds. The scope has extra fine cross-hairs with a tiny 1/2-minute dot.

The wooden shipping crate has many historic stampings and labels. As depicted at the beginning of this post, the crate's lid shows Elmer Keith's "North Fork Idaho" address.



This end of the crate shows the Railway Express label.



Numerous Ink Stamps are found on all sides showing "C. M. O'Neil" and his "Hopkins, Minn." shipping address, as well as his "FED. LIC. 887", Federal Firearms License number.



The opposite side of the crate shows the remnants of another old faded label that has yet to be deciphered.



And here is something that I missed entirely. When I had the rifle apart, I searched the barrel thoroughly for any stamping that might give a clue as to who / when this rifle might have been built for Elmer. Only when I reassembled, cleaned, and oiled everything did I notice the "C M O'NEIL" stamp on the muzzle face. I guess that answers that!



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I have had everything on hold while I waited for loading dies, which may never come. So, I finally put together some assorted dies to reload these, and I tried about a half-dozen different combinations.

Here is a 100 yd target that was shot with 55.0g of IMR 4350 and a 175g bullet. - Just like Elmer said in his write-up about this rifle. I had several groups right around an inch, but this was the best group "so far" - a solid 7/8" 5-shot group.

I'll post more pics as I get loads developed, if they do better than this. I guess this rifle would be good for long range hits on Coyotes and Eagles.



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Pictures below from: "Handloader Magazine, Nov-Dec 1966, OKH Cartridges, by Bob Hagel."



This 280 OKH cartridge is slightly different from the one referenced above. It has a longer neck and a radius at the neck-shoulder junction. As history has shown, Roy Weatherby adopted this radius for his line of cartridges. And he reckoned that if "one" radius is good, "two" must be better, so he added a second radius at the shoulder-body junction. Interestingly, Roy also believed in, and used, a free-bore in his chamberings, just like this one does, albeit Roy's free-bore was not as long as this one. Roy's freebore was about 1 inch, this one is 1-15/16 inches long.



I'm not sure what Elmer and Charley were thinking by using such a long free-bore. Perhaps that's why the project with this particular 280 OKH chambering ended and was never developed beyond this "one" experimental rifle.

I think I'm going to take it deer hunting next week and see what happens

Fascinating reading the developmental history of guns and cartridges during this period. Even if they didn't work out.

Threads like this made me buy a copy of George Hoffman's book "A country Boy in Africa" that arrived yesterday.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Fascinating reading the developmental history of guns and cartridges during this period. Even if they didn't work out.

Threads like this made me buy a copy of George Hoffman's book "A country Boy in Africa" that arrived yesterday.

Hello Cougarz,
Thanks for the reply.

You might enjoy this thread that I posted 3 months ago about a rare A-Square deluxe model in 416 Hoffman cal.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/6141023532

quote:

Whats that? .... Eagles?

Yes eagles they were shot as they preyed on the smaller forms of live stock. Just like coyotes, wolves and other predators.

You might find it interesting that they were also hunted from air planes and shot with shotguns while flying.

When ones life depends on what you raise anything that endangers that is taken care of.

City dwellers don't understand this and have watched to many Disney movies.

Also thanks for posting the pictures and story of an very interesting rifle.

Fascinating write up and rifle and, congratulations on acquiring a piece of history. Being a life long Elmer fan I thoroughly enjoyed the text and pictures.

Elmer was particularly peeved at the golden eagles for decimating the baby bighorn's in the spring.

I love those old all steel Redfield scope rings and bases. the Lyman Alaskan scopes are super nice...I have a number of those rings and bases and I have a couple of Leupold Alaskans, that were produced for a short time in the 1980s I think, they have centered cross hairs and I like that..Guess they didn't sell well as todays shooters like large variables for the most part...My recently built custom 7x57 fwt. supports a Leupold Alaskan 2.5X, one of my favorite big game hunting scopes.

BTW, George Hoffman was one of my very best life long friends,Ihave his book signed by him and Mary Hoffman sent me his cartridge belt and knife after his death..Saeed, Pierre van Tonder and I were planning his last safari the year he died, but his last year was spent planning that Safari, Mary said it made his life fuller..I shot my biggest buffalo ever on that trip and we toasted that bull to George..He will always be missed. His daughter was also a licensed PH in Tanzania..A family of fine people.

Eagle hunting used to be quite a thing out here.
I recall reading several articles about rifles and hunts for them.
they weren't the easiest animal to get a shot on.
well with a rifle, they are pretty easy to pick off with a Dodge or Chevy during the winter if you willing to get over on the rumble strips some.

Now that is a 7mm mag! Leave it to Keith to deliver on Remington's promise.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Fascinating reading the developmental history of guns and cartridges during this period. Even if they didn't work out.

Threads like this made me buy a copy of George Hoffman's book "A country Boy in Africa" that arrived yesterday.

Hello Cougarz,
Thanks for the reply.

You might enjoy this thread that I posted 3 months ago about a rare A-Square deluxe model in 416 Hoffman cal.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/6141023532

Yes I remember that thread. It's the one that prompted me to buy the book. I have it now and was surprised to find it's a signed & numbered copy.

Once again thanks for collecting and writing up these little bits of history during an interesting time in firearms development.

Ray, thanks for sharing your time with an old friend.

Thanks for sharing the story of the rifle. Elmer's contributions to firearms is pretty amazing for someone who did not work directly in the firearms industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Elmer was particularly peeved at the golden eagles for decimating the baby bighorn's in the spring.

I remember a couple of quotes (from "Hell, I Was There") to the effect of, "That's one less eagle out there stealing lambs." He might have been talking about bighorns, or might have been talking about his own sheep. He ran a few flocks of them in his day.


Okie John

The small picture under the top rifle I think is Elmer with Roy Weatherby.

I used to love Guns and Ammo from that period and especially Robert Hutton.

I think this is the picture I mentioned in my previous post.

http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pag...hardness-keith31.jpg

Thanks so much for sharing that piece of history. Elmer is one of my heros. I can only imagine what it feels like to hold a rifle of that provenance. It needs to be preserved in it's original character. I can see upgrading the mounts and scope to explore the potential of rifle and cartridge. However, it would be special to hunt with it in its' original configuration. Such a special rifle.

Hello walkinhorseman

Thanks for the reply.

As you can see, the rifle came with a 2-1/2x Lyman Alaskan All-Weather Scope. (with a Dot reticle) This is likely the scope that Elmer used for hunting.

But you can also see that it had Unertl target bases in place, both on the barrel; one near the front of the receiver and the other farther out. This makes me think that he also used these for mounting a Unertl, or similar Target scope, for long range shooting or load development.

So, I temporarily removed the Lyman scope, (leaving the base in place) and affixed an early 10x Unertl for more precise aiming during load development.

And yes, it give me untold pleasure to shoot this rifle knowing that Elmer Keith also shot it some 50 years earlier.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Whats that? .... Eagles?

Yes eagles they were shot as they preyed on the smaller forms of live stock. Just like coyotes, wolves and other predators.

You might find it interesting that they were also hunted from air planes and shot with shotguns while flying.

When ones life depends on what you raise anything that endangers that is taken care of.

City dwellers don't understand this and have watched to many Disney movies.

Also thanks for posting the pictures and story of an very interesting rifle.

Elmer hated Eagles because he had seen them pray on sheep and Elmer had much more affection for sheep.

That is a really neat rifle. Bet it gives you great pleasure to have it and mess around with it.
I've seen goldens try and take mule deer.

That was an interesting read, thanks for sharing that with us.

That's awesome I read about that rifle .I one of Elmer Keith rifles also a p1917 Enfield in 333 kph belted Magnum .It was built by Charlie O'Neal and Elmer took it to Alaska shot a ten foot grizzly and ten elk with.it in Idaho .Charlie O'Neal took it to Africa and shot a ton of African game with it .I.have the dies he used and 300 of his 300grain Barnes bullets that Fred Barnes made for him .Elmer Keith.was way ahead of his time and invented many things we use in.shooting still today !

They swaged .308'bullets for that rifle .He really.like it for.long range .I will check.in.My.Elmer Keith books for info on.it I have all his books .I read alot.about.it .There are a bunch of his rifles out there !Hope you get your dies made and some bullets !

There is a rifle just like that one on.Gunbroker in 333okh belted mag .I looked in Keith's rifles for large game the rifle looks similar but had a vert low scope mount and swing over scope mount .HE had a 265 okh also .The rifle preformed like a 7mm stw and was very accurate .I hope I can get the scope problem fixed on my 333okh Elmer Keith rifle soon so I.can try it long range also .It's kinda a pain to make bullets for these and load for them but we'll worth it .Elmer Keith was an awesome inventor the Winchester model 70 ,Ruger number 1 and Ruger 77 ,Ruger Blackhawk ,357 mag 41 mag 44-mag and tons of other guns came from.his ideas .I.look forward to taking his rifle back to Alaska to hunt with it for moose and bears !

Woodleigh makes .333 bullets, bonded and solid for the .333 Jeffery .

Great rifle you have there .

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
That's awesome I read about that rifle .I one of Elmer Keith rifles also a p1917 Enfield in 333 kph belted Magnum .It was built by Charlie O'Neal and Elmer took it to Alaska shot a ten foot grizzly and ten elk with.it in Idaho .Charlie O'Neal took it to Africa and shot a ton of African game with it .I.have the dies he used and 300 of his 300grain Barnes bullets that Fred Barnes made for him .Elmer Keith.was way ahead of his time and invented many things we use in.shooting still today !

Hello dgr416,

Thanks for the reply.

I obtained a swage die from Corbin to "bump-up" standard .284 dia. bullets to .289 dia. The target shown above was shot with 175g bullets that were bumped-up with that die. I'll be testing additional loads this coming Summer.

Great post! Thanks for your time to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
Great post! Thanks for your time to do so.

Hello surefire7,

Thanks for the reply.

Its always fun to share my finds with others of similar interest.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
...I hope I can get the scope problem fixed on my 333okh Elmer Keith rifle soon so I.can try it long range also...

Are you, perhaps, the present owner of the Mauser 333OKH Elmer took to Africa on his first safari?

If so, I hope you are not changing the Weaver scope, even if it is completely had it. Really, that rifle should be in a museum. I remember it deep-etched across two pages of a '60s article about the best all-round rifle, and a small picture of Elmer holding it beneath a tree with suspended sable.

The beautiful, striped (maple?) stock with its classic schnabel and furniture stays in my memory to this day. The quirky O'Neil-Hopkins mounts may not have helped field blending but allowed the flag safety to stand behind the ocular as a status warning in case of a charge.

He took the 333 okh to Africa like the 338-06.I.have the one that's like the 338win mag it's the 333okh belted mag .He took.it to s Alaska and shot a huge grizzly with it and ten.elk in.Idaho..It's in.awesome shape .Charlie p
Oneal took this gun to Africa and shot a ton of stuff with it .Elmer took.it to Winchester to.get the 338 win mag made he was kinda mad they picked 338 diameter than the 333 .I.hope to swage some more bullets that's why I.have been looking.for the old Speer 275 grain bullets that was Elmers favorite bullet in.The 333 and '338 calibers .He was awesome very smart and helped invent.many.calibers and guns !

Elmer was a great guy in my opinion; a significant experimenter, writer and, from what I can glean, a good family man.

I have read his first biography but somehow forgot about his getting burned and how his father straightened out his hand. I found this story online just now:

http://www.sixguns.com/bunkhouse/elmer_keith.htm

... An interesting cover with the man and his wife, Lorraine, and daughter, Druzilla (a name willed down the generations by his ancestor the explorer Captain Clark, to whom Elmer bore a passing resemblance).

The rifle looks a bit like the subject's 285 OKH but was apparently a 300 Hoffman magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
....... The rifle looks a bit like the subject's 285 OKH but was apparently a 300 Hoffman magnum.

Hello sambarman338

Thank for the reply.

I've searched for a picture of Elmer with my 280 OKH rifle, but haven't found one, yet.

Elmers Book Hell,i was there,
Talks about trouble with Golden Eagles , and Sheep, i bet those are the eagles he was shooting. Hopgully not Bald eagles,

Thank you for posting that series of pictures. It was very interesting. Thank you.

Hello tjroberts

Hello enfieldspares

Thanks for the reply.

I'm sure Elmer was shooting "Golden" Eagles, not Bald Eagles. I guess those Eagles were killing a lot of baby sheep and such on the western ranches.

Holland's on their 300 H & H chambered Mauser 98 rifles do do the side cut out. It's odd really as the only thing you need to eject in any hurry is empty fired cartridges.

Holland's do, hower, do a very small about 1/4" hald moon cut out directly at 12 o'clock on the front receiver ring so that loaded rounds can be inserted from the top.

So I deduce for that that Elmer was having problems loading (from the top down) because of his one piece 'scope mount that Holland's rifles using a two piece 'scope mount didn't have.

So old Elmer was sort of loading from the side inwards rolling the round in as it were? The cut is there not to get fired case out but loaded rounds in!

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
............So I deduce for that that Elmer was having problems loading (from the top down) because of his one piece 'scope mount that Holland's rifles using a two piece 'scope mount didn't have.

So old Elmer was sort of loading from the side inwards rolling the round in as it were? The cut is there not to get fired case out but loaded rounds in!

Hello enfieldspares

Thanks for the reply.

No, loading cartridges into the internal magazine is not a problem. The side cut-out is only for "unloading" an "unfired" cartridge. Once captive by the extractor the loaded round can only pivot to the side, hence the cut-out is required to clear the cartridge's bullet nose.