I see the new fat cartridges kinda fazing out except the 270 wsm and the 300 wsm.Those two with probally last but almost all the rest will disapear pretty quick.I see the wssm cartridges the 223,243 and the 25wssm disapearing very quickly.The Remington short mags are about dead already.I see the wind is gone in the ultra mags.The 375 rum and the 338rum are only chambered for one factory gun.The old 375 H&H and 338 win mag are standard cartridges not the be replaced.The 7mm wsm,7 mm rem short and 7mm ultra mag were too much to an already crowded 7mm bore.The 325 wsm is being pushed but its not a 338 and its a 8 mm really a failed diameter in America.It was all a ploy to get our goats to buy new guns.Its funny except for the 270 wsm they pretty much did the same thing as the older calibers did.The 270 win is about the only one that lost big ground.I have heard lots of people with feeding problems with the short mags and pressure problems.I think the 270 wsm will loose some steam after the article that shooting times did showing it only 100 fps faster than the 270 win.I think in 22 inch barrels that the 270 wsm might not be much faster at all.Its funny how the little 204 ruger made such a splash .The 480 ruger made a belly flop.I hope that the new cartrides fade away before old classic ones do.I still like such old favorites as the 264 win mag,338 win mag .I do like new calibers also .I love the 416 rem mag and the 338-378 weatherby both of those are big preformers in their calibers.I still wish someone would come out with a 250 savage in a compact rifle.I dont even know why but I am buying a Winchester 25-35 in model 94 .i have always liked the caliber and its going to be my little rifle to introduce shooters to a larger caliber than 22 lr.There are alot of old calibers that just need new guns.they are just as good as they use to be.I think the 35 Whelen is an old wildcat that is just going along at its own old pace.W ho would think that the 45-70 and the 30-30 would be around as long as they have.I bet they will still be around for 50 or more years if we still can hunt then.

I said all that from the start, and nobody would listen

The only short mag interest I had was getting the "same" 300WM performance in a .308W size package. But it doesn't really seem to be that big of a deal. The .270 WSM was an improvement to the .270W but not much. The only one that really would have sent me to the store would have been a .264 version of the WSM! Nate

I bought two of the stainless Ruger 77 mark II in 264 Win Mag and solved that problem.I am happy with both except I am going to have them rethroated for bullets other than the factory loads.They both shoot under an inch with my reloads but I have to seat alot of the bullets deeply to make them work.
I talked my brother out of buying his 12 year old son a 270 wsm.I told him that it was not worth the extra recoil and sheels that were twice the price as the 270 winchester.I dont like the 270 that much but its alot better than the 243.Its ok for deer and animals up to about 400 pounds.I saw a bear that had been shot in the shoulder with a 270.It lived for a month till someone else shot it.I decided then if I was going to hunt bears I would buy a 338 win mag.I still kinda think that winchester missed the boat by not bringing out the 338 wsm.It was about 100 fps slower than the 338 win mag.I am glad the 338 bore is as popular today as it is.I think Elmer Keith would be proud.I know I have used it 20 something years and its never failed me.
I forgot the last belted cartridge the 7mm stw its about gone also.You can have two many choices in a caliber which actually makes it hard to have loads for all the calibers.I like the old 250 savage and the 25-06.I think not bringing out the 257 wsm was a mistake instead of the 25wssm.I think in 5 years or less there will be alot less wsms,rums,wssms and other cartridges that do nothing that the old cartridges that they were to replace.Its a big joke when you buy a new 270 wsm to replace your 270 win and get 100 fps more.I would like to see a report with all the wssms,wsms,and remington short mags to really see how much better they were.There will be alot of cheap rifles with no ammo in 20 years or less.The 270wsm and the 300 wsm will probally be only ones left of the whole bunch.I will take my old 264 win mag,338 win mag,416 rem mag and 338-378 weatherby and be happy with them from now on.I think gun makers are missing the boat by not bringing out calibers like the 264 win mag ,250 savage and alot of other oldies but goodies.The 264 win mag is alot better round than it was when it came out.It does need a 26" or 27" barrel ,good bullets that we have today and the better barrels that are made today.Roy Weatherby was way head of his time.He did come out with new rounds that were way ahead of anything else.

I think the 300RUM will last. The SAUMs are dead, maybe if Remington offered a 25SAUM in a lightweight 23" barrelled M7 and a 35SAUM they could sell some rifles? I see only the 300WSM and 270WSM lasting in the future.
Cheers...
Con

I agree, the 300 RUM and both the 270 and 300 WSM will be here 20 years from now

quote:

I see the new fat cartridges kinda fazing out

not much of a surprise here.....

I welcome the WSM's as improved designs over the belted ones.

New cartridges have been coming out since the .22 short or whatever. You like old ones and I like old ones and new ones. I have no problem with the process and you do.

Thus I am happy and you seem unhappy.

How many 375's were selling anyway, of any chambering? That's a tough one. And 338, you've got some die-hard 338 Win Mag fans (rightly!) but basically the American market at least (and perhaps greater) is a 30-and-under crowd. I don't see the 338 RUM going away anymore than I do the 340 Wby. They're here. Anyone that was expecting to be able to walk into a gun shop on any given Friday and find a 375 RUM 5yr after intro wasn't thinking.
But boy, oh boy did Winchester miss the boat on the 6.5 WSM....

I've seen the 300 Ultra and WSM gain momentum, not lose.

Just ask some custom rifle builders. Since I hunted in CO with my friend and my 300 RUM, he and all of his brothers got one, as well as several friends.

The guy that owns a gunstore out there told me last Oct that the 270 Win is still his most popular rifle cal sold, second was a 7 rem mag, and the various 300 magnums all fell after that. He said the shorts from remmy were duds but the ultra mags sailed and are still very popular.

I see lots of SAUMs and WSSMs are the bargain rack in the stores I frequent. Same with the ammo. The 270 and 300 WSM are about the ones still kicking...

I actually like the SAUM case better than the WSM case, and I have toyed with the idea of getting a 7SAUM, but perhaps I'll wait until they are marked down AGAIN...

I bought a model 7 in 300 RSAUM - It was accurate, had less recoil than a 300 win mag and hit a whitetail harder than I've ever seen one hit. Still I sold it to my buddy. I just didn't like the short fat cartridges -maybe shaped too much like me - and didn't like the fact that it was finicky about having the magazine charged. The rounds came out fine, they were difficult to put in. My Buddy loves it and used it to take an impala, a lechewe, a zebra and a Kudu.
Me I'll stick with my 3006 and 375H&H. There's just something about long and slender.

TerryR

I am glad to see new cartridges like the 204 Ruger that is very different than other cartridges.I dont see much use when you have 45 different 7mm rounds of which 25 over lap each other.There is no way that a small gun shop can stock this many different calibers.The 284 winchester was a short mag in its day and it has about disapeared.The 7mm ultra mag replaced the 7 mm stw but the regular 7 mm rem mag suffered in the start but more people will go back to it as these new calibers disapear.I would bet the 7mm rem mag is still the most popular 7mm bore rifle.The 7 mm wsm and the 7mm rem short mag are a over lap and do nothing the 7mm rem mag didnt already do.I think such calibers as the 223 remington,243 winchester,270 winchester,30-06,308,300 win mag,338 win mag,375 h&h mag will be around as long as there is still hunting.I guess the middle length ultra short mags are next for new rounds.The number of hunters is decreasing on a down hill slide.The gun companies have to use every trick in the book to keep us buying guns.I finally quit buying so many guns and shoot the ones I have alot more.Its practicing with a gun that will make you good with it not just because its the newest rifle around.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
I am glad to see new cartridges like the 204 Ruger that is very different than other cartridges.I dont see much use when you have 45 different 7mm rounds of which 25 over lap each other.There is no way that a small gun shop can stock this many different calibers.The 284 winchester was a short mag in its day and it has about disapeared.The 7mm ultra mag replaced the 7 mm stw but the regular 7 mm rem mag suffered in the start but more people will go back to it as these new calibers disapear.I would bet the 7mm rem mag is still the most popular 7mm bore rifle.The 7 mm wsm and the 7mm rem short mag are a over lap and do nothing the 7mm rem mag didnt already do.I think such calibers as the 223 remington,243 winchester,270 winchester,30-06,308,300 win mag,338 win mag,375 h&h mag will be around as long as there is still hunting.I guess the middle length ultra short mags are next for new rounds.The number of hunters is decreasing on a down hill slide.The gun companies have to use every trick in the book to keep us buying guns.I finally quit buying so many guns and shoot the ones I have alot more.Its practicing with a gun that will make you good with it not just because its the newest rifle around.

Well said! Apart from a few, genuinely new cartridges (not simply replicating the performance of an existing cartridge in a new form), there doesn't seem to be much that is new which is really useful. JMHO.

Cheers, Dave.

I have been sayin I need to buy brass for a while now. Nasty procrastinator I am...

Doc,

I'm not sure what smiths we are talking about, but Sisk & Jarret have both gone on record saying the 300 WSM was hot, but right now they're building more 300 Win, than WSMs.

Don't get me wrong, I think the .300 & 270 WSM will make it, as will the .300 ultra. I like to have a .325, but I don't see it lasting more than a decade at best. Despite great designs, there are simply to many cartridges out there to support one's w/ ho-hum sales.

I like the .300 rum and I reckon it's here to stay.

I tried the 300 WSM in a Model 70 Fwt. and it shot like a house afire...but I like the 300 WM better and sold the WSM.

I would like to see the rifle manufacturers concentrate on their quality control instead of gimmicks just to sell rifles....screw R&D on new cartridges and get things put together properly. Oh well, I no longer shoot factory rifles and view them as nothing more than rough actions to be used as starting points.

Beartrack, admittedly, my info is at least 3 months old, so maybe things are changing already, at least for Jarret and Sisk.

But some smiths are pushing for certain calibers, so future clients have, on occasion, been talked out of the shorts and into a standard.

If nothing else, some of us old farts have a new appreciation for our old faithful standbys...after a short, shallow affair with the new stuff.

I do still have that 270 WSM though....

Tim (not quite an old fart at 48)

Never was a fan of the shortmags, I do like the 350 remington mag, I think a wildcat .257 on the saum case would be cool, The wsm case is in my mind a little to big for a .257
I have come to think that many hunters think they are good enough to shoot deer at extreem ranges and if they get a cartridge that says magnum, they can just point it at the deer and shoot ! I,ve been shooting and hunting for about 25 years and with a good rifle I can shoot better than most guys, at the range I use, and I would,nt feel right about a shot past say 350 yards, unless conditions were perfect.
No wind a good rest not much up or down hill,
and at 350tds an 06 a .270 or a 7 mag will do just fine ...tj3006

I certainly won't mourn for the loss of the wsm's wssm's, or any of the short mags period. The 257 mentioned above made sense, and ofcourse, that's not what the factory gave us, rather they chose to reinvent the wheel. Glad I never bought any of them. In fact, out of all the johnny come lately cartridges, the only ones I really liked were the 300 & 338 Remington Ultra mags. The 300UM offered a full length 30 magnum that has been missing sine the model 70 dropped the 300 H&H, and the 338 offers 338-378 performance without the Weatherby belted case and freebore. Both were niche cartridges, and damn good ones. The 375 UM is a stompper, but perhaps it was too much of a good thing.

I do like the ORIGINAL short mag very well... the 250-3000!

The 338-378 weatherby is around 600 fps faster than the 338 win mag.I bought lots of 338-378 brass for around $1 .It last at least 15 times.I also have 8 338 win mags.I still hunt deer with my favorite gun my old Ruger 77 in 338 win mag.I bought 4 of them just like it for cheap and just keep them around.I also bought two stainless Ruger 77 338s.I find myself hunting almost always with my 338-378 because of its long range shooting ability.It adds about 300 yards to the 338s range.I almost got a 338 ultra mag but there was too much over lap with the 338 win mag.I cant beat the $1400 scope and rifle in my 338-378 for the best long range hunting rifle that weighs under 10 pounds scope and all.I still have a winchester 338 that is about a pound lighter than the weatherby but I dont trust it with my life like I do the weatherby.I bought a around 1400 pieces of brass that will out last both of my 338-378s.I usually buy two rifles the same so who ever goes hunting with me can have just as good as a gun as I have.They are really for who ever I marry if I get a gal that hunts.I am working on getting the one I have now into it slowly.She like grizzley meat more than me.I am buying a new 25-35 for her next step up from a 22.That 338-378 kicks so little with a break that my hunting buddy who was 11 at the time shot two caribou with one shot with it at 450 yards.The 338-378 weatherby is just a super 338 that just adds to how better the 338 is as a hunting rifle.Its loud and you have to shoot with muffs on which sucks but its worth it.I bought a savage 99 in 250 savage but it had 1 in 14 inch twist and would not even shoot 100 gr bullets.I sold it and am looking for another one that has one in 10 twist.My 264 win mags were a caliber I always wanted also.I love the two I have they supassed what I thought they would be.I would love to have either an old ruger in it or a weatherby accumark in it.There are tons of old calibers that just need guns for them.I think if a new caliber comes out that it should be different enough from the old ones in order to be worthy of chambering.Who would have thought that the 45-70,7x57,30-06 ,30-30,470,405 winchester back from the dead,375 h&h and the 270 would have lasted as long as they have.There is a reason that they passed so many new cartridges in their wake.It took a while for the 338 caliber to catch on but now its a mainstay. Winchester thought the 307 win and 356 would leave the 30-30 behind ,yeah right.I hope someone brings back a small rifle for the 250 savage.

I have not been a huge fan of the whole short mag or ultra mag craze, but I have to retract any statements that I have previuously made.

Just this last week I found a CZ Model 3 in 300WSM. It was one of those guns that jumped off the rack at me. The wood is absolutely beautiful (the best I've ever seen on a production gun), the satin blueing is mesmorizing. Then I picked it up and put it to my shoulder. DONE DEAL. Most of you know the feeling, when a gun fits, it fits. When it feels good, it feels good.

I bought this rifle for the rifle itself. The caliber was secondary, it could have been any of the WSM's and it would have gone home with me.

But after I started to research loads for this cartridge.... I'll be honest, I haven't paid much attention to the short mags up to this point.

I will easily be able to duplicate 30-06 loads(need I say more) and equal 300 WM loads (need I say more again). There is nothing that I won't be able to hunt in N. America. All this in a great handling, beautiful gun.

So in a nutshell I have eaten crow, because I now own a WSM. I'll be honest, this is the most excited I've been about a rifle since I had my 338-06 built. I already picked up some factory loads. Going to range and ordering reloading supplies on Monday.

Unless the hole is greater than .30 caliber, I am at a loss as to why a magnum is necessary.

I can get by with a 6.5X55 (already have) and a 9.3X62 (soon to have).

although I have not been a fan of the factory offerings in the short mag craze.. I am sort of glad that the cases are available....

I can see some wildcatting potential that I think is awfully attractive....

like the 6.5 WSM or a 6.5 WSSM...

or the 25 Rem SAUM....

I look at them as target rifle potential candidates more than anything, particularly with a Savage switch barrel rifle or a Mauser Switch barrel set up......

I could almost care less what is selling well for the manufacturers...it is component availability that floats my boat....

guess handloading is just getting the better of me...

this is all so much fun!

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
Unless the hole is greater than .30 caliber, I am at a loss as to why a magnum is necessary.

I can get by with a 6.5X55 (already have) and a 9.3X62 (soon to have).

Velocity, velocity, velocity! Velocity is king, it extends range, flattens trajectory, reduces wind drift, improves terminal performance. If velocity didn't matter we would all be shooting 45-70's!

I would really like to see all you guys go out and buy the .325 wsm. I mean buy one or two and shoot the heck out of it. Then write in to Nosler, Sierra, Hornady, Barnes, swift and all the other bullet makers. Tell them we need more and better 8mm bullets. We need more options in weight and styles so I can load my 8x57, 8mm-06 and 8mmRM with them. Hurry before it's too late. Before that 325 disappears for ever along with the other wsm cases.

My 338 Rum & my 300 RUM are doing fine. I'm using the 300 Rum for a bear hunt this Aug. This is winter unless on a hunt you don't hear to much.

I have 3 RUMs and one SAUM in .300. The SAUM is the real surprise - I shoot this thing all the time. The .300 RUM has little advantage over the .300 SAUM - just a little less wind drift, but with the .300 SAUM you can practice with it all the time. I shoot all the time at ranges out to 750 or 800 yards. Practice is the key to doping wind. The problem with one RUM in the stable is that by the time you learn to dope the wind, you have shot out the barrel. I don't worry too much about burning up my SAUM barrel.

I would supplement HP Shooter's comment with a "who needs a magnum under .30 if you don't have a place to shoot past 300 yards?"

Long live Arizona...

Another AZ Writer, You nailed it!!! KUDOS!! The 300SAUM is an easy handling, EASY TO LOAD FOR(from 110 to 180 grain pills) FITS IN A TRUE SHORT ACTION!!! chambering!!! If REMINGTON had brought out their SAUM's instead of siting them on the shelf so they could introduce the RUM's(the R&D was done on the SAUM's well ahead of their intro!!!) then the WSM's would be the one's relegated to the talk of being obsolete!!!
And if the powers that be in the front offices had any riflebuilding, reloading, shooting expertise(but we all know the bean counters and front office folks in corporations are just that.....front office folks!!!) then REMINGTON would have offered up their SAUM's in .264, .257 versions.......maybe even ol Elmer's choice, the .277 version) and would have ignited a craze!!!!
The SAUM case is USABLE!!! I kinda like 7-12% less powder to get the same velocity from any given projectile vs what we've had before!!
Hornady, had they have elected to bring out the 17HM2 AHEAD of the 17HMR would have done good also!!! But we all hadseen what an HMR was capable of and then when the HM2 came out we tried it and sold it within 3 days of buying it(if we we're lucky!!!) GHD

I have a 300WSM browning FLD Hunter. I really like the both the gun and the calibre. I recignize that it does the same thing as the 300 WIn, but what's wrong with that. I replaced a 3006 when i bought mine, I wanted a calibre that was a bit flatter shooting and harder hitting and it is. The recoil is reasonable, the gun is quite light for a magnum(8lb 2oz scopes with a belly full) copmared to my previous m70 3006 and over 9.5 lbs. The gun is accurate (around an inch with minimal load development using H4350 and 168 gr TSX's).
I don't get this whole hostility thing, what's not to like?

quote:

The WSMS,RUM and short remingtons alot disapearing already

What a shame, since there was no real need for them anyway!!

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
Its a big joke when you buy a new 270 wsm to replace your 270 win and get 100 fps more.

But dgr416, I seem to remember all the gun writer ex-spurts telling us the big advantage of the short fat ones was a short handy rifle and bench rest accuracy!!