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On a couple of other posts there were references made to the danger of pass through shots, as in the bullet passes through the animal and continues on to injure a person. Now I know folks have made two-fers on pigs and deer but that is not what I am really interested in discussing and obviously type of bullet matters. But for discussion purposes let's assume a 30 cal 180 grn expanding bullet with a impact velocity of 2600 fps strikes a 150 lb deer almost broadside and only hits ribs on one side and continues on out. Let's assume a Barnes TSX because it expands but retains weight. Assume level ground. I would think with the amount of velocity shed and now close to zero BC because of deformation that the bullet doesn't travel more than about 50 yards before it hits the ground. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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I can not say what it does after hitting a deer but I know even cup and core bullets after going thru heavy conveyor belt at 100 yards at waist height will travel to our 300 yards berm and hit the ground right at the base. I would not want to be in there way. Molon Labe New account for Jacobite | |||
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A guy I used to know used to talk about culling deer on his ranch, and waiting patiently for 3 deer to line up. If he got the proper opportunity, he'd drill three with one shot. If I recall correctly, he was using a .416 RM (knowing you mentioned 30 cal). ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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Realize that your prefaced your scenario with "for discussion purposes", but one cannot assume that a bullet, after striking any medium, will continue on in a straight course, even if striking only soft tissue, since, even a Barnes TSX could shed a petal and be deflected and striking even a rib can deflect a bullet considerably. Just a couple of weeks ago, I shot a nilgai with a .338 WM, 210 gr. NP. Hit right behind the shoulder on a broadside shot. Bullet did hit one rib (centered in the rib) and turned up breaking the spine about 6" above the "straight line" path of the bullet before impact. I would guess that the remaining energy was diminished but no way to predict where that bullet went. I'd be reluctant to shoot with anything behind my intended target due to this uncertainty, but that's just my personal opinion. Regards, hm 2 Chronicles 7:14: If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. | |||
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Folks, None of this is for the purposes of saying..."Oh well that thing is at least 75 yards behind that deer so its ok to shoot" This is just a theoretical discussion to try and understand how much velocity is shed and given a lack of aerodynamics how quickly the bullet falls. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I did some calcs Mike using ballistic calculators and for a 150 grain 308 bullet that deformed when passing through it would strike the ground again (if I remember correctly) between 50 and 250 yards. However, getting the calcs involves a lot of assumptions and if it exits heading skywards at a 30 degree angle then your guess is as good as mine but it is going to go a long way. Long story short but ... Recently a fellow shooter called me to ask for help in following up a wounded deer. It was a sika calf so probably 100lb absolute max and he'd shot it at about 40 yards. He was lying prone so the shot was slightly angled up. By pure luck and fluke of the light I was able, after walking about 60 yards, to find a straight line in the grass which looked to me like where his bullet had come to earth. I was able to pick his bullet up and, to his utter shock, return it to him :-) The bullet was considerably deformed and had penetrated maybe 12 inches or so of soft vegetation and soil on coming to earth, plus maybe a further 3 - 4 feet through tips of grass etc. Here in the UK all rifle shooting depends upon there being a "safe backstop" and all responsible shooters only shoot when they are confident where their bullet might end up. Of course this just can't account for the occasional bullet that makes a 90 degree turn in the animal and exits heading directly left, or right, of the point of impact. | |||
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Mike I have no clue as to the theoretical part. I do know about 15-16 years ago I was in west texas on a customer trip. Only ammo I had loaded for my 280DPK was 160Part at 7mag velocity I had just used on an unsuccessful Elk trip. Told them I would be happy to take a doe and donate the meat. First morning of the hunt an large doe walked in by herself. From about 40 yds I put one through her neck and she dropped. Since I then had about 2 hrs to kill I got out and walked around the blind. Decided to get ride of my morning coffee and walked about 75-80 yds the other side of the feeder. There lay a nice 10pt fresh kill. A younger buck that would have been a great buck. The majority of that 160gr was in his chest. I had never seen him back in the brush when I shot.  I mounted him for several reasons. The major one was to remind me to look harder as to what is behind my target. What I had seen was simple thick (empty) W Texas brush. I was very lucky that he died and wasn't just wounded. So that bullet had made one kill traveled 75+ yds and took out a second deer. Down at out current Texas lease we have so many hogs to try and get rid of I've waited and lined up two for my 400gr DSX bullets. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I have shot deer with a .308 on several occasions and seen the bullet hit the dirt on the other side. It would probably be different if you had a premium bullet and did not hit ribs, but an expanded bullet does not have too much left for distance. | |||
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As the the question of the bullet passing through and going on to injure someone, I would respond with one of the tenants of safe gun handling. "Be sure of your target as well as the surroundings". The phrasing may be slightly different depending on which firearms class you attended, but the message is the same. Be sure what is behind, around and in front of your target. If the background leaves any question in you mind where the bullet may come to rest, then pass the shot. I learned this lesson early on in my hunting career when I took a longish shot at a last hour of the season buck sky lighted in the waning light. The shot connected and the buck collapsed. When I got to the buck I realized that the bullet could have continued beyond the deer to land on the other side of the hill where a farmer had been very recently doing field work. Fortunately the bullet stayed within the buck and no one was in the field, that day. I have been ever mindful of that shot since. Mart "...I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprize, and independance to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Doesn't take all that much of a bullet. I know of an instance where a 120 ballistic tip out of a 7-08 took 2 doe antelope at about 300 yards and exited on the 2nd one with about a 2 inch hole. As far as I know that bullet is still going. The guy had 2 tags so he was done for the season. | |||
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I was spotlighting deer as part of a cull using 30.06 and 180gns, bullets exiting and on a couple of occasions they dissapeared off into the distance with enough velocity to hear a bit of a whir. It was dead still, bugger all noise so easy to pick up. We were very conscious of what was behind as others were also culling deer in other parts of the property. I often see bullets exist kangaroos and you hear them hit trees in the distance. Roos are about the same as deer. I think we have all not made shots at game because of what may or may not be behind. . | |||
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Ok...I ran some calcs making some assumptions. it's not to say that the assumptions are right but it at least gives me an idea. Lets say I have a 30 cal 180 grn bullet that strikes a deer at 2550 fps and sheds 500 fps of velocity. Assumptions bullet sheds 22 grains of weight and mushrooms perfectly to .357 and now I have guess what a .158 grn 357 cal projectile doing 2000 fps. Let's assume it exits the deer horizontal at 2000 fps and is 32 inches off the ground. That projectile hits the ground at 215 yards. Several things to consider. 1. The bullet is not going to be as aerodynamic as a factory 357 158 grn projectile 2. Since bullets fall the moment they leave the barrel, it is striking the deer at a downward trajectory so turning flat or up will consume energy. So...they potentially travel a lot farther then I would have guessed and CAORACH's estimate of 50 to 250 sounds about right. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, I read an article recently that was quite fasinating.Don't ask me where I read it or even who the author was because I just can't place it. But the premise was on how much energy was lost as the bullet passes through game. In other words how much energy was "dumped" inside the beast. They were comparing a 30/06(may have been a 308win) to a 300 Win Mag. 3ft blocks of balistic gelitan were placed on a stand and a chronograph set up on each side of the gelitan. What was interesting was that bullets fired from each chambering had about a 200fps exit velocity. The 300 win mag actually exited at a slightly slower speed due to the greater bullet expansion and lost more velocity (energy) then did the '06. I believe what we are dealing with is the size of the beast and the contruction of the bullets. Not all animals are the same and not all bullets perform in the same manner so we have a large number of diffent experiences. Personally I want my bullets to penetrate and leave an exit wound. My only real life experience was when we were hunting in south africa. I took an 80 yard shot on a waterbuck as it was crossing the bakkie trail. I was using a 35 Whelen with 225gr Barnes TSX. The waterbuck bull dropped on the spot and the bullet had passed through the ram. No big deal. Three days later we were walking the same trail and there approximately 100yds past were the waterbuck dropped was the perfect tsx laying in the trail. How much velocity did that bullet exit with? Anyway the subject is fasenating, I think there are just too many variables to quantify or predict the results. BigBullet "Half the FUN of the travel is the esthetic of LOSTNESS" Ray Bradbury https://www.facebook.com/Natal...443607135825/?ref=hl | |||
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You should always be aware of what is behind your target. I remember a story in Readers Digest a long time ago called "A Bullet From Nowhere". A guy some distance offshore shot a shark with a 303 British and the bullet skipped off the water and went through an open window of a car going down a coastal highway. The bullet hit the woman driver under the earlobe and killed her. I have killed quite a few double deer with plain soft points in various calibers. Line up 4 shoulders or two necks and let them have it. Did one triple with a 338 win mag and a 275 grain Speer SP. One of the scarious things that happened while shooting was a 50 BMG API bullet bouncing up my target berm and seeing it flying through the air in a ball of fire going who knows where. No more 50 BMG shooting on my range. How many bullets that we can't see do the same thing? | |||
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3 years ago I hit a 4X5 mule buck at about 150 yards using a 30/06 with a 165 gr Nosler Accubond. The deer was standing slightly quartering away from me and I hit him on the right side. Upon gutting him out, I noticed his neck was really loose. So after further exploring, I find that the bullet somehow took an almost 90 degree turn and upwards through his neck breaking several vertebrae, entered the brain cavity (discovered while doing a Euro mount) and exited between his left eye socket and nostril. Vernon | |||
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while i think you have to be aware of whats behind your target until someone can show me otherwise if you shoot a 180 grain 30 cal bullet at 2800 fps and don't hit anything it will hit the ground in less than 1000 yds. just looking at tables to go hunting i realize i can't guess hold over on an animal at 700 yds when sighted in at 200 yds because the drop is huge. I know people say they shot at a deer standing up and say it killed someone 1 1/2 miles away and I simply don't believe it.It may be true but someone would have to prove it to me. | |||
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My Dad used to hunt cape buffalo with a 35 Remington pump action. He always went for heart shots. One day he shot one and the bullet passed through, having not struck bone and broke the shoulder of an unseen buffalo behind the first. These are big animals. Regards 303Guy | |||
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i've shot a ton of impala for leopard bait. one hunt got to the point that i was shooting 2 at once counting on the pass through, and one time 3 with one shot. all this with a 165 gr partition out of an 06. shots were close and impala are not that big. pass through is always a great concern of law enforcement people worrying about innocent bystanders | |||
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My daughter had two tags left so she lined up two white tail does. Pulled the trigger and kill them both just like she wanted too. Heard of more then one double like that. | |||
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buchloc From what I have seen as a law enforcement instructor. I was way more worried about misses instead of pass throughs. | |||
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Oh my! Those Impala are a splendid animal! They make damn good biltong too! Now I have feral goats to amuse me. They are fine little animals too and boy are they good eating - billy goats too! Regards 303Guy | |||
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yeah IMHO cops are among the worst shots. i was thinking of the fb1 when they were deciding on the 40 that they were worrying about pass throughs on a full 10mm. | |||
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Its a shame but most LEOs are not gun people. A few are very good, some are fair, most just don't care and are bad shots. I helped with AZ ccw course there was a retired by 1 year border patrol agent it it. He had a hard time keeping rounds on a 8x11, off a brench rest with his sig at 5 and 10 yards. Got him to pass but I stood by him and talked him through every shot.He had a very bad flinch. | |||
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As am I | |||
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I used almost exactly the same assumptions as you Mike, but for a 150 grain bullet. However, the outcome is very sensitive to the assumptions made and in view of the frequency of reports we hear where the bullet did something very strange it seems fair to say that bullets which pass through may have the potential to travel a long distance and care is necessary. | |||
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i found a skeleton of a 9-1/2 ft bear on the beach, took some legbones home and tested a 3006 with 150gr non preimium bullets for penetration on legbones placed in front of a box of dry newspapers, at about 50 yds. the bullets blew the bone all to pieces but the bullet fragments only penetrated about a dozen pages of dry newspaper. this means the bullet would have never made it into the body cavity of a live bear had the leg or any other heavy bone been in the way just something to think about If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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I just heard a story form an AR member yesterday when i called him. He was bow hunting pigs with a friend and the friend shot at a mob of pigs. he shot once & my mate missed one. Later they went and check - shocked to find 3 dead pigs! The other guy had shot a smaller pig & the arrow and passed through to take the next pig and finally hit the third one in the head and kill it too! They have it on video and promised to post it soon. I can't wait to see it! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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There are no pass through shots in California all bullets are retained in the gut pile. Condors come down and eat the gut piles with the bullets and later die of lead poisining.Just aske them they know.  | |||
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i've seen pass throughs up to oryx sized animals .. personly, 3 in a blow (hogs), from a 416 at 40 yards, is my biggest "cluster" and intentional. even if a 180gr 30-06 lost HALF its weight and vel, its still in 38 special power close .. or, better, 30 mauser/7.62x25 .. which will kill most game animals in a good shot, and wound more than that. i do remember one west texas evening where i heard a "helocopter" of a barnes .375 225gr TSX go whirling by ...... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I have only seen one pass through bullet that affected another animal. My son and I were Elk hunting Colorado some years ago, both using .358 STA chambered Model 70 Winchesters. Our load was the same load I had hunted Africa on plains game with, a 270 grain North Fork loaded to 2950 fps. The fourth Elk season that year was it's typical very snowey conditions. His shot on a very nice 5X5 was at 125 yards up the mountain, with nothing visable beyond the Bull, which was standing broadside. He shot the Bull through both shoulders, with bang flop results and proceeded up the mountain to inspect his Bull. When he got there he found the Bull and while preparing to gut it he noticed in the swirling snow a Cow laying under a Cedar tree with her head on her foot 25 yards beyond the Bull. Quite supprised to find a Cow that close bedded down he carefully approached her and upon close inspection noticed her eyes were open and she had a spot of blood on the side of her head. She was the same body temperature as the Bull, he concluded he had killed both Elk with the one bullet. That year you could buy both a Bull and Cow tag in that hunt unit, therefore he had two tags, never thinking he could have the opportunity to take both with one shot. The next day he dug the bullet out of the cranium on the off side. It was a perfectly mushroomed North Fork 270 grain bullet. We were the only two hunters using a North Fork bullet. When weighed the bullet still had 92.5 percent of it's original weight. Well, that is my only pass through bullet story, I still have the bullet after sending it to Mike Brady and having him weigh it and relating the story of the kill. Needless I was very impressed with the penetration of that bullet, but concluded that the 250 grain bullet might be a little more appropriate for Elk. We still use the 270 grain North Fork when I go into country with animals that have fangs and claws or has dangerous ideas. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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I shot a Fallow doe one night (spotlight cull), about 50+ yards away, front chest shot. She didn't fall over and the herd kept coming slowly towards us, not knowing which way to go. Anyway, I shot her again and she went down, then one of the others in the vehicle asked who shot the fawn as it was limping (which was the fawn of the doe I had shot). Anyway, none of us had and after shooting it, the first shot at the doe had exited right rear and hit the fawn in the back leg / rump area. It surprised all of us and was a good lesson. | |||
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Regarding pass through...here is a different story...similar to Sam's about the guy shooting on water & killing a woman driver 3 miles away. http://www.foxnews.com/health/...23-years/?test=faces 23 years with a bullet in his brain and he thought that it was a sling shot!!! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Some years ago I read Brian Pierce's story of hunting buffalo in Africa with a 45/70 and Corbon cast bullets. He killed a bull and then found that he had also killed a cow with a pass through! I wonder what kind of pass through Michael & Sam will get with their new #13 bullets! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I wouldn't like to shoot a Buffalo from a large calibre rifle with anything behind. I shoot Woodleigh SN's and in some cases Hydro's and have had quite a few SN still pass through Big cows and bulls (Water buffalo) which would be 750kg and up when shot side on. | |||
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Man, this was published many years ago. I do remember reading this story, too! Never forgot it until today. | |||
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All I know is... I have passed on 3 great deer cause I wan not sure what was behind them. And I would do it again Snake | |||
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Yes I read that one too...40 years ago or so and still remember some details. The strange thing is that the guy knew the victim as she used to live near him many years earlier. The bullet entered through the rear left window, which was open, at a very sharp angle and hit her behind the ear lobe. The autopsy found the bullet hole very late in the process. The opinion was that the bullet would not have made it if the window glass was up. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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not for nothing .. the skull bone around the ear is the densest in the body. an aquaintance in college was hit there by a "Stray" 45 .. fell from the sky from the BAD areas around UH central .. broke the skin, cracked the bone, knowcked him out, perm hearing loss in the (iirc) right ear. glass would NOT have stopped the bullet, but it would have deflected it opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Some years ago there was a story in the Raleigh News and Observer about a woman who was killed in her back yard by a 30-30 bullet. A week later they got around to mentioning that there was a deer involved, and it was also hit. Meanwhile they left the unfortunate hunter on the hook, for good or for ill, who could not see the woman through the brush. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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