I am going to pass on this. I would need to see it and I am not going to get that opportuntity for a couple of weeks. It wasn't really something I was out looking for it was just something that came up. I am tied up with back to back custom projects right now and this is just a distraction.

quote:

Originally posted by 510wells:
Originally posted by El Deguello:
Absolutely! I'm sure old Bell couldn't have killed over 800 elephant with a mere 7X57mm. Good thing he had the Rigby........ He also used Kynoch ammo in it!!
I'm afraid your dead wrong about the Kynoch ammo! He didn't trust the stuff (probably for a good reason) and used DWM if at all posible

510 Wells;

It was not Bell's dissatisfaction with Kynoch per se that that was at issue it was the fact that he knew full well that you could not take elephant with anything else but FMJ's and thus he stuck to DWM's military offering. Incidently also the reason he avoided the use of other calibers. Although he indicates that he did not like Brit ammo at the time he had to use it as he had guns regulated with it. ( all Rigby's were regulated with kynoch ammo and DWM did not make ammo for the number two. )

As to the 275 Rigby he used, in all he had something like 6 of these rifles, not all were number ones though, some were number twos and thus not fit for use against elephant. The number two's shot 140 gr Kynoch ammo.

Further that there is very strong evidence that supports that he did not in fact kill all the 800 alephant with his 275 as presumed.

The Rigby Ledgers show that the 275 referred to in the opening pages of Karamojo Safari was in fact ordered and delivered in 1910. His last elephant shoot was in 1920 thus 10 years.

He ordered 2 rifles that he took delivery of in 1910. Both were Number two's thus sighted for the 140 gr bullet.

The next 3 rifles from Rigby were also no 2's but with extra rear sights for the 173 gr bullets ( 1911. 1912 and 1922 )

The last rifle 1923 was for the 173 gr bullet.But this was after the fact so to speak.

I'm scratching my memory a bit but didn't Bell write that he used other calibres on elephant. Didn't he shoot nine elephant in succession with the 303, never quite managing to get a full magazine of 10. He prefered the 98 action over the Lee. He also stated a liking for the 6.5 Mannlicher but after having a round jam and when he opend the action the bullet was stuck in the barrel and the powder spilled out into the action. It was the ammuntion not the rifle which lead him to stop using the Mannlicher.
All the above could be wrong, perhaps others know better.

I'm pink therefore I'm Spam

[QUOTE]
I doubt I could ever afford it, but I have always wanted a original Holland and Holland.
----------------------------


Schromf-

I pretty much agree with you in respect of the earlier parts of your post.

I am not wild about Holland & Holland products, however.


In my opinion, the Brits did a nicer job of putting up their rifles in a "pretty" fashion than they did in making truly good "hunters" of them.

In my time, I've owned enough to be able to compare them meaningfully with North American made rifles, and for a hunter's gun, I'll take the NA rifle every time, _IF_ I have to buy it sight unseen.


The oak & leather cases the Brits made for their rifles were very nice, though naturally, the cases were a lot nicer on the highest grade ones than in the lower grade versions. (I felt their canvas covered lower grade cases were rather shabby for the cost.) In the highest grade Rigby's oak & leather cases for instance, generally mine had cases which were specifically fitted for everything...and I mean FITTED...not just compartments for everything, but Individually FITTED compartments for the turnscrews, cleaning rod, scope, rifle, everything. They also used to come with a nice optional touch, which was a small bottle turned out of elephant ivory with a screw-on cap of the same ivory, containing a spare front sight. With some, the grip cap also sprang open to hold yet another spare sight.

As to Hollands, specifically...I have owned a number. Their doubles were generally very nice. but their bolt guns which I have owned weren't that great as working tools. I once bought a pair of matched Holland best-grade, scoped and express-sighted mausers in .275 H&H Mag. They looked very nice, and one of them shot very well. The other, with factory ammo provided by Holland's, would blow primers almost every shot. I sold the pair to Don Robinson of British Columbia in 1975 or '76 as I was not pleased. (Don owned a gunshop and was going to resell them to some collector looking for status and who likely would never be unhappy so long as the H&H trade label showed predominantly. Plus, I gave him the pair at a VERY good price to him.)

Generally speaking, I don't think the English gunmaker's products ever have held a candle to the better North American custom smiths of today (...and that's basically what the Brits we are discussing here were too...small custom gun making shops of their day.)

So anyway, don't fret yourself over getting a Holland rifle. A nice one really is a nice one, but their stuff was no nearer perfect every time than rifles by Echols, Goens, Fisher, Miller, et. al. are today, and in many cases not as truly functional.

I know that is sacrilege to some, but so be it. I've owned MANY rifles from both continents and that is and will remain my view


Footnote - Speaking of doubles, the last new Purdey double which I took apart (back in 1981)had the buttstock fitted by Purdey via glass bedding!! Not particularly outstanding "old-world crafstmanship" in that one.

Alf,

Have you ever sat down and written and recorded all your goodies?

I would add one of your books to my library without a thought.

I have no idea what you format or title would be, but something along the lines of: Mausers, Express and African Hunting Rifles would cover enough ground that you could fill up a volume in a blink.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
just to get rid of it, it was such a beast. Must have had a full inch of cast-off...
!)

Didn't I think stocks could be easly warped by pouring very hot linseed oil over a portion, and wedgeing it over ??

And as for L.O.Pull even I can adjust for that.
I cut a few sections off a .22 for my 12 yr old son and eventually put them all back with hardly a visable mark.
John L.

Alf,
Those Rigbys are amazing. I wish someone out there did case-coloring for bolt actions... I love that look, along with the short forend.

I remember seeing a pic of your original 500 Jeff. Do you have any Lee Speeds? I love those too...

-mark

300H&H, you can certainly get bolt actions case colored.

This is a Remmy 700 I saw up at Jeffeosos, PM him and he can give you the contact details, they did amazing work.

Browning,
That looks great, and thanks for the contact.

Mark

300H&H,

I agree with your sentiments about the short foreend and color hardening. Rust blue however will last much longer.
Doug Turnbull does color case hardening,well for some people!
I spoke with him at SCI REno, was not interested in doing any magnum mauser bolt action work case hardening for me,said he prefers not to do bolt actions. Then when I spoke to Ralf Martini from the Hagn gunshop, I asked him who does all your CCH, he said Turnbull !!
Some people are just quirky.

Anytme I build a 7x57 I stamp it 275 Rigby and get a couple of hundred extra dollars for it.. but don't tell anybody.