A carrot was flagged in front of this old donkeys nose today. I am soliciting some advice from senior board members on this one.

Rifle in question is a Pre WWI Rigby original chambered 275 Rigby. My smith and dealer called me on this, and no I don't have pics, the gentleman who owns it is a computer duh, and wouldn't have a clue how to do it, his wife should be able to do it and I am currently working that angle.

Condition of the rifle is excellent, I have this second hand but the dealer above is a friend, knows me well and wouldn't bother me unless it was something special. I have not verified it yet but it was supposed to have been proffessinally restored in England, with letters to prove it. Again I have not seen the pics but its got all the original pieces, I want to verify the rear cocking piece sight. My friend looked it over and seems to remember it being on the rifle with folding express sights.


Ok whats it worth? Restored dings value, and for those of you familiar with the rifle its not chump change. Actually it would require me getting deep into my goodie box, and some of my colts and a very cherry pre 64 WInchester 375 H&H would probably be in the mix. I am not very comfortable with that concept, but in truth I don't use the 375 much, and have parts to build a Interarms replacemnt ( no it probably isn't going to be as pretty), and one of my high dollar Colts is NIB, so I have obviously not been using it.

I got to say that if this checks out to my satisfaction, a original 275 RIgby is on my dream list of guns, wish a lot and never really expected I would be ever to own one.

SO what do you think this would be worth?

Well I seen them go for as high as 6500 dollars. It depends, I would say that you maybe looking in the 3500 to 4500 dollar range. More if it comes in the makers case. Now you need to ask if its a HV model, those had there sights regulated for 140 gr bullets at around 2800 fps. A friend of mine has one, a 140 gr Nosler Partition over 50 gr of IMR-4350 shot right to the sights all the way out to 300 yards.

George,

In between your Hi/Low numbers. I will ask about the HV. My gun value book goes higher than that though, but the restore factor is hard to value. If done correctly, by the right gunmaker, I don't see it as a drawback if done poorly its a definate devalue.

I don't think I would have even gotten a call if it wasn't nice, my friend ( and smith ) knows I am one of his pickiest customers, and it would have had to pass his muster, before he even bothered to call me about it.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976394634.htm

this is posted at gunsamerica, to give you an Idea . there is also a 416 Rigby that looks dead nuts like Harry Selby's, its got a 35K tag on it. There is also a very nice 375 H+H by Holland and Holland listed.

275 Rigby=7x57 if you don't know

quote:

Originally posted by Thumpper470:
275 Rigby=7x57 if you don't know

I, for one, didn't know.....thank you. That would remove a lot of interest for me immediately.

Thats a little older I think, yes the Selby rifle is what I am talking about.

I won't get information tonight but will follow up once I have all the facts. And yes, the I the prices are in the range of what has been discussed, no suprises.

Still doesn't address the restoration factor though.

I beg your pardon Thumper.

Whilst the .275 Rigby may have exactly the same case dimensions, and shoot exactly the same loads, it's a much better cartridge don't you know.

It's a Rigby after all.

I had a custom Mauser built and the caliber is engraved .275 Rigby, just seemed to sound better.

quote:

That would remove a lot of interest for me immediately

Vapodog,

Why? Thats an awesome combo, original rifle, add a leather case, properly headstamped brass, and the all goodies in the case........as they say absolutly marvelous.

If the restoration was top of the line, ie, "museum quality", I wouldn't worry about it. I had a Fox Sterlingworth restored a while back, the value actually increased.

It would need to be very choice condition to buy it. That is for me alone. Others may be willing to buy for more.

Browningguy, I'm with you.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:

quote:

That would remove a lot of interest for me immediately

Vapodog,

Why? Thats an awesome combo, original rifle, add a leather case, properly headstamped brass, and the all goodies in the case........as they say absolutly marvelous.

If I ever build another 7 X 57 I'm surely going to have the barrel engraved the .275 Rigby. Come to think of it.....does this mean that I should label my .280 Rem project the ".275 Rigby long"?

I agree it is a much sexier name, but there is another reason I would not choose it. It is not American or German/Austrian. The Brits make great doubles but know NOTHING about bolt guns. The ones I have seen were not even well pollished in the interior. I'd prefer a Mk X.

Didn't WDM Bell use a 275 Rigby for a majority of his elephant kills? That right there is reason enough for me to want one.......

Washougal Chris

Not sure if it was a majority but he killed a butt load of ele with it. With the 173 gr. loads it's an absolute stomper for deer size game.

quote:

Originally posted by WashougalChris:
Didn't WDM Bell use a 275 Rigby for a majority of his elephant kills? That right there is reason enough for me to want one.......

Washougal Chris

He favored it over all his other guns. Most of his hunting was done in pretty open country and he favored precise shot placement. He would have used the standard 175 grain loadings. They could be ordered as HV which was set up for 140 grn loads.

What is the sectional density of a 175 grain 7mm?

It was a different time then though.

Is it still possible to find affordable .275 Rigby brass?

.

Thanks Alf, that is of course what I am talking about.

And the comment that the British didn't know how to make a bolt action rifle...............please. Do names like Holland and Holland, Jeffry, Westley Richards, and Rigby mean nothing to you? Just cause most of us can't afford them, and you don't run into them in your average gun shop, doesn't call for they didn't know how to build them. And I will leave it to ALf to document cause I know he has much better reference points than I but these were all top quality mauser actions, as parts then a lot of craftmanship was added in the build.

Alf, thanks for your pics, I always appreciate these, always a bright spot in the day.

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
Is it still possible to find affordable .275 Rigby brass?

Well it depends on your definition of "affordable". Quality Cartridge has them for around $33.99 per 20 delivered.

Roi

Alf,
Once again you delight us/me. Two nice Ladies(or mistresses!)you have there.
Are they both small ring?
Are they Std.or Interm. length 98 actions? Its just that the one resting on its case showing the left side, looks abit shorter than usual.
Barrel Lengths?

quote:

It is not American or German/Austrian. The Brits make great doubles but know NOTHING about bolt guns

Another thought I have on this is a lot of contential rifles knew nothing about hunting guns. The Germans and the Austrian both did a lot of goofy details that was nothing more than a art project in steel.

Details like stocks, spoon bolt handles, and extravagent engraving, and high scope mounts are things that make many contential rifles of zip interest to me. I am not bagging on mausers or FN's mind you but there are a lot of european rifles that land firmly into high dollar junk category in my book.

Some of my favorite rifles are european manufactured, but there are many I wouldn't give you 20% of the asking price.

It all comes back to taste, and individual preferences, but the Brits knew how to build rifles, and didn't have much use for a rifle that the old saying that dog don't hunt applied to.

Blast away if you disagree, but it my opinion and I suggest you shoulder one of these before criticising.

I doubt I could ever afford it, but I have always wanted a original Holland and Holland. Lets have it chambered in a 300 H&H or a 375. I would clean out half my safe to make room for either one of these.

.

I am wary of rifles said to be "refinished to new" in the UK, they frequently look wonderful outside but have badly worn bores.

The Brits did not buy finished pollished actions. The guns they produced (and I don't care by whom) are not up to the quality of the German and Austrian makers.

I have decided the only way I am interested is a up close and personal isnpection on my part. And some details need to be verified. Who it was restored by is going to researched and I am going to check this out very carefully.

Like I said originally I need to get into my goody box to fund it comfortably and I got to admit I am in no big rush to sell off my 375 H&H. I could loose a handful of Colts and wouldn't feel much pain but my 375 is really nice and it took me years to hunt one down in this condition. Not a lot of motivation unless the Rigby is in very good condition. I will look at the rifling, but I think your point is valid and if I decide to chase this seriously I might make it a condition of the sale that I fire it first. My 375 is very close to pristine, and is a real shooter, so the only way I would consider something like this is for something I deem better.

I have run across a couple of old Westly Richards with shot out bores and need a little help for a lot less money. This is either top quality or I will move on, all my firearms are rated as tools. If the don't perform the task at hand they are gone, I don't care how pretty or collectable they are. A broken gun to me is just parts, and function is the first priority, cosmetics come next.

.

quote:

The lack of respect for the Euro gun trade is also imo out of lack of knowledge of the craft.

Whilst we may not like the mid european best gun style or the "overproduction

Alf it isn't a total disregard for the euro gun trade, Hell half of my favorite rifles would be on my shit list. old BRNO's, the Swedes, Loewe, Mauser, even the French if I was pressed built fine rifles. But there were a passal of euro rifles that were produced by what what in my opinion, were made by unemployeed cukoo clock makers, that knew how to work metal and wood but had no clue how to style and build a rifle.

I will get out on thin ice here and I am sure there are those who will disagree. I never cared for the split bridge Mannlicher. The spoon handle really is in my mind only an advantage when the gun is used in a rifle scabard on horseback. THe split bridge has some serious design drawbacks. Were these made right, yes, for the most part, although these are spotty at to performing on target, I will ceede that age, moisture, and full length stocks could be the culprate on his failing from my prospective. They were a OK rifles, very slick action, and I compare them to a well done Krag only that weren't built rack grade.

I freely admit that my statistical sampling is small. The Euro trade has really dried up in the US, actually I am not sure it ever was really strong, FN was regularly inported during certain years, and Manllicher, and Heym have been spotily imported for years, pretty much a catalog item that is seldom seen. Sako has had a strong pressence for years.

I spent 3 years in Italy and in truth ALF in my whole time there I never saw a decent bolt action rifle, if I had I would have bought it. I saw a lot of shotguns, some drillings, properly designed bolt actions...No.

Anyway I drift we can agree to disagree on this, but I wanted to qualify my thoughts. What we can agree on is that the the fine English gun houses built top quality rifles, that lacked for nothing and can be compared to the finest rifles built anywhere.

Alf,
Deelightful rifles!!! Thanks for sharing.
It is my understanding that the primers containing mercury didn't affect the barrel, only the brass case, but the salt that chlorate primers left is what had to be washed from the barrel. Anyway, deelightful rifles!!!!!

.

quote:

The gunmaking trade in Belgium, France, Austria and Germany is alive and well not to speak of the former comblock countries.

This is no lie ...

Chris

quote:

Is Italy in any way representative of the euro gun trade?

Alf,

You of all know damn well thats a yes and no answer. Yes they are pretty much trendsetters in shotgun world, and no that can't build a bolt action to save their ass.

And no I agree that my opinion of Spanish and Italian guns is pretty much sorry goods. Although I don't think the Italians really deserve that as much nowdays.

Alf, I like Euro rifles, make no bones about it. But Euro sytling ( not English ) blows in a lot of commercial rifles. The brits made some barking dogs also, and yes some of the crap being mass produced in the good ols US of A right now, certainly reflects the dark ages of gun design.

An example of what I don't like in current euro manufacturer one needs to look no further than the Mauser.......I think its called a model 99, innovative? students of automobile use that term to describe the 1958 Edsel, to me it was a gold plated turd, plain and simple, mausers current design followed that example, only it is still being produced, Ford had the good sense to stop prodcuing them, and rolled the innovative ideas into the Thunderbird. Don't think that calling the mauser design the Phenoix would help it, that bolt design still sucks and even rising from the ashes, its still going to be a scare crow.

Your comment about thinking outside the box, guns are a industry steeped in tradition. Look how many years it took to pry lever action rifles out of the American hunters hand. Turn of the century twenteth century I would have much rather had a M98 Mauser in a 7x57 than a Model 94 in a 30-30. Which is still being produced? Do either one of us believe its on merits?

The American contemporary of the mannlicher split bridge would be the Krag rifle, introduced by the US Army in 1892. The French Lebel rifle which is the grandfather of all modern cartidge design dates in 1886, so I think your comment about the 45-70 could only be valid for a couple of years at most.

And no I am even refering to military arms, it doesn't take more than a casual student of history that small arms development in the late 1880's to the first part of the 1900's was spearheaded by europeans. The US didn't even get serious in the the game until around 1900.

Alf,

Now that I am not so tired I had a couple of other thoughts to express. In small arm development I am not sure there has been much that qualifies as really innovative in a while. When I have time I enjoy reading and studying history from various periods. One trend that it clearly evident is that in the world of military armanents all technologies were at the peak of the develoment cycle when they became rapidly obsolete. Pick a technology, swords, piston engine planes, plate armor whatever, these were at the apex of product development, and in as short as a 10 year period, obsolete.

Small arms as we have come to know them have had a very long run, and there has been many refinements but the last big change was when the US put semi automatic rifle in every soldiers hand in WWII. I am both incapable and unwilling to speculate on when this guaranteed cycle will kick in with small arms, might be 10 years out, maybe a hundred, unsure on my part but its replacement will eclipse whatever is currently deployed, smaller, more lethal, lighter are descriptions I would expect. Whether you or I live to see this, that remains to be seen.

In short a lot of refinement going on right now, little true innovation. Machine guns are pretty much still working on the basic principles of John Moses Browning, as are most military handguns. THe assault rifles aren't a whole lot different from the original German concept, vastly improved and refined, but pretty much the same basic concept. The only really innovative idea I remember in recent memory was the caseless ammo, yes it was developed in europe and it was pretty much DOA, I haven't heard anything about it years.

Refinement is a more accurate description than innovation in the current state of arms development. Which is just fine with me.

.

quote:

I is really worrying.

Alf,

We are are in total agreemnt on that. The current state of affairs across the industry is worrisome. I don't think europe is insulated from it either, Berretta making a clean sweep across the european gun trades does not bode well for the industry there. In the depressing state of the large arms companies comes a glimmer of hope for those of us that fancy ourselves students of fine rifles. This is the smaller operation that is building very high quality goods. A local outfit in my neck of the woods is BAT machine, very high quality, expensive yes, and not a hunting rifle action, more geared to benchrest, but excellent goods none the less. And I think this is global, just last week someone posted a link to a mauser like action being built in Germany I think. I have not actually seen one but I guarantee if I the chance to gander at one, I am going to be looking very closely. So I suppose its a tradeoff, while the big gun companies are charging headlong into their almost predetermined course, the vacuum they are leaving in their wake is being filled with a lot of smaller outfits that are giving us the consumer a lot of options that were not really available even 30 years ago. Thirty-fourty years ago finding anybody producing aftermarket actions was almost unheard of.

And yes I don't think innovation in military designs makes much difference in commercial rifles any more, these arms are moving into pretty much poison fruit territory, and I expect this general trend to continue.


In short I think those of us who demand quality are going still be able to get it, we will just have to pay for it. And yes I really have my doubts that a lot of the new black/plastic products will be desired goods in thirty years. I don't see Glocks being seriously collected in the future. Stanger things have happened under this sun, but I have my doubts.

quote:

Originally posted by George Semel:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976394634.htm

this is posted at gunsamerica, to give you an Idea . there is also a 416 Rigby that looks dead nuts like Harry Selby's, its got a 35K tag on it. There is also a very nice 375 H+H by Holland and Holland listed.

The picture shows something labelled "Maus 8X60S African", and that's what that rifle sure looks like-and made on a military action, too. Just look at the red-colored extractor claw-hot bluing at the wrong temperature for the steel......

quote:

Originally posted by browningguy:
I beg your pardon Thumper.

Whilst the .275 Rigby may have exactly the same case dimensions, and shoot exactly the same loads, it's a much better cartridge don't you know.

It's a Rigby after all.

Absolutely! I'm sure old Bell couldn't have killed over 800 elephant with a mere 7X57mm. Good thing he had the Rigby........ He also used Kynoch ammo in it!!

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
Absolutely! I'm sure old Bell couldn't have killed over 800 elephant with a mere 7X57mm. Good thing he had the Rigby........ He also used Kynoch ammo in it!!

I'm afraid your dead wrong about the Kynoch ammo!

He didn't trust the stuff (probably for a good reason) and used DWM if at all posible.

Schromf-

Be sure to inquire as to amount of cast-off, if any, before you buy. I have had several original .275 Rigby's, among others, and a few had way too much cast-off to suit my tastes.

In fact, I sold one in NRA Exc. conditiion at the Edmonton, Alberta, Canadian Historical Arms Society Show of 1971 for $175 Canadian, just to get rid of it, it was such a beast. Must have had a full inch of cast-off... While you're at it, you might also want to check pull-length. As many of those were bespoke guns, the stock dimensions may be danged near anything.

(No, folks, it was NOT a "cross-over stock for a left-eyed shooter. Whoever ordered it originally, though, must have had almost no neck and a very full face!)