The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Sensible Sevens - Craig BoddingtonGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Sensible Sevens - Craig Boddington | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
Sensible Sevens - Craig Boddington "Overlooked by magnum maniacs, the 7x57, 7mm-08 and .280 Remington will do just about anything that needs doing with a .284 bore. American shooters seem to go through periodic phases of "magnumitis." We are definitely in one now, and I have no idea how long it will last. Fast-stepping cartridges with large case capacities are interesting, but the reality is that magnum cartridges make a lot of noise and kick harder than most of us like. That's OK if you really need the capability. But most of us don't." ... Craig Boddington (Posted: 2004-12 ) The 7mm Shooting Times Westerner popped up in the 1980s, a super seven on full-length 8mm Rem. Mag. brass. At 3,325 fps, the STW's 140-grain bullet flies 150 fps faster than the 7mm Remington Magnum round. Predictably, the difference narrows downrange, because the faster a bullet, the greater the drag. More drag means a higher rate of deceleration, all else equal. At 500 yards the 7mm STW is only about 110 fps ahead of the 7mm Rem. Mag. But the STW is not the last word in speed. Remington's rimless, full-length 7mm Ultra Mag. and the 7mm Dakota (on a shortened .404 Jeffery case) have upstaged it by 100 fps. John Lazzeroni's 7mm Firebird offers even more horsepower. Pieter | ||
|
| One of Us |
One on the best things I ever heard CB say, was that many recreational hunters are usually better off with their favourite deer rifle if going to Africa. HIs own daughter has shown how ffective the humble 7mm/o8 is on the likes of Zebra and bull Eland. Even a young 14 yo Gail Selby was able to take her bUll ele with an old world slow poke 7x57 175g solid. Gails brother, and a number of Harrys paying clients, used the same rifle and load, to also bag a variety of African game. even Harry himself used it to drop some cape buff. SO whether it be a master shot like WDM Bell , some young teens, or PH, or adult paying clients, all have recorded positive success with that same rifle and bullet. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I like the magnums. I USED to play with them a great deal until reflecting on the results of close to 50 head of big game, which is nothing when compared to most folks today and certainly not during the glory days of Africa or our west. Those animals were taken with a wide variety of firearms from 375 H&H and 300 Win Mag. down to the lowly 30-30, smokleless powder and jacketed bullets, muzzleloaders and BPC rifles loaded with black and cast bullets. I have come to the conclusion that once bullet weight reaches about 100 grs. with a velocity of 2400 and above it's adequate for deer and probably a lot of African plains game. As caliber and bullet weight increase velocity can and of necessity has to drop, unless one is shooting a magnum, obviously. 480 grs. of cast bullet launced at around 1100 fps will flatten any deer or comparably sized game in the world...and a lot bigger! I am inclined to agree with Boddington who is one of the few gun writers I actually respect today. DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
|
Moderator |
7x64 --- there is nothing like it ... and invented nearly 10 years before winchester plagiarized it with the not-heavy-for-caliber 270 opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| one of us |
Oh, I don't know. The 280 MIGHT be just a teeny bit like it. | |||
|
| one of us |
Just slightly. :-) Enough so that Finn Aagard rebarreled his beloved Mauser so chambered to 280 Rem when the barrel got tired. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The 7mm Mauser has got a solid following in SA... Much more more popular than the .280 Rem (which is a fine cartridge as well). However, .280 Rem ammo is generally more expensive here than the 7x57.. But as a visiting hunter all you really need is your standard deer cartridge. There are a few scenarios in which a magnum is better but for 90% of our hunting, the trusty 'old reliables' will do the job without need for much bigger.... But heck it is fun to own different rifles to play with!! | |||
|
| Moderator |
40 years after the fact, loaded with light for caliber bullets? Sort of like comparing the 260 rem to the 6.5x55 -- no relationship -- the 280 is designed for deer .. as is the 270 ... the brenneke shots heavy for caliber bullets at moderate medium high vels .. easy to shoot, easy to load, easy on the guns... the 280, well, its a rebranding and misses the mark .. like the 260 vs the 6.5 the spec twist for both clearly shows the intended bullet weight design... LOL.. think of the 280 (which is really a fine cartridge) as being the corvair to the 7x64 as being a porsche -- so, i'll stand by my statement -- there is nothing like the 7x64... but you can force and/or build a non-spec 280 to perform like it, the majority of rifles built for it aren't going to deliver the same performance... yeah, i know, its splitting frog hair 5 ways .. though the 9,3x62 is designed for much heavier bullet weights than the 35 whelen -- the 9,3 is allowed for dangerous game in most african countries while the whelen isnt... why? lighter bullets in the whelen .. and OF COURSE you can load a whelen to a gnats hair of a 9,3 (note, the 9,3x64 is an ENTIRELY different creature).. but it still isn't exactly the same. this isn't a case of another fine 7mm .. the 275 rigby / 7x57.. which ARE the same, other than headstamping opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
One of Us |
Seagrams is the only sensible 7 ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
|
| one of us |
jeffeosso: now you're differentiating RIFLES not cartridges. The 280 and the 7x64 have essentially the same case volume and handle the same diameter bullets. they are two peas in a pod. Perhaps if you had said there is nothing like the RIFLES chambered in 7x64... | |||
|
| Moderator |
No sir - but i understand the misconception - the 7x64 is wildly popular in Europe -- which requires adherence to CIP and design standards -- therefore commercial rifles will meet, at least, a spec. the 280 is an entirely different beast But, if you don't understand the heavy for caliber issue, which is partially driven by twist/spec, then we likely don't have much to talk about.. in theory, could you make them the same? loading a 280 with off spec heavier bullets in an off spec twist to make it the equal of a 7x64 .. yep... however, it would not be comparing "actual" (in the case of CIP countries, legal) 280 to a base 7x64... corvair to porsche .. i've owned and driven both... 280, 7x64 as well as the cars ... the specs are very similar but the results aren't even close... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
'HFC' is not as important as it used to be, due to the advent of monoMetals and super-premium cup-cores. a 140X or 160-AF is the most bullet weight one really ever needs in a 280rem ...or 7x64. in the early 90s An aquantance of mine used the first 140-X design in his 700KS-280rem for Africa, He was totally impressed with the performance of that bullet on over a hundred heads of game. He actually stepped down to a .280rem from his favourite custom 24" barrel .270WBY M70 featherWeight. | |||
|
| One of Us |
If you are a handloader, there is no "on spec vs off-spec" you load what you like in any cartridge. Don't like a barrel length, twist,throating, change it! | |||
|
| Moderator |
1: the majority of the world's shooters aren't reloaders 2: no, you can't compare super special custom loads in just your rifle and have a meaningful discussion of 1,000,000 more rifles. 3:see 1, further, MOST reloading bullets aren't ultracustom high end bullets... but the 280 is 40-50 years late, and serves a different purpose.. der ende opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Craig Boddington is just another hunting magazine writer expressing his opinions. Before him there were other writers writing about their favorite cartridges, and after him there will be others writing about theirs. Just imagine how boring it would be if we could only choose from three cartridges? To every one of us our favorite cartridges are the ones that really work, otherwise everyone would only use the cartridges Boddington talks about. For Alaska my favorite is the .338WM, but I could be fine with a .30-06 through a .375 H&H. The word "Magnum" in relation to cartridges means nothing to me. | |||
|
| One of Us |
If one had to solely rely on factory ammo, The .280 rem gives more choices. Currently, MIDWAY shows 18 for 280rem,.. and 3 for 7x64. Want more choices?,... suffer a 7mmRemMag, which shows 61 load offerings! | |||
|
One of Us |
I have a lot of respect for Bodington and I have enjoyed reading his articles for decades. But this, from the same guy who said the .300 H&H was obsolete? . . | |||
|
| One of Us |
here is what CB actually said:
It view it like in the same boat as the .284win, just seems to hang in-exist,on the fringe. | |||
|
| one of us |
Jeff: Please enlighten us on the magic of the 7x64. Yes, in Europe there are CIP specs to meet. Here there are SAMMI specs to meet. In factory ammo, the 280 drives a 140 gr at 3000. The 7x64 pushes a 140 at 2950. The 7x64 drives a 173gr bullet at 2526fps, the 280 gives a 165 gr 2820fps. Big difference? So are European rifles given faster twists so as to stabilize heavier bullets? Are heavy for caliber bullets what separates the two cartridges, in your opinion? | |||
|
One of Us |
Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
|
| One of Us |
When you shoot a .280 Rem the rifle goes: KA-BLEWEY When you shoot a 7X64 the rifle goes: ÇÂ-BLÔWÉ . | |||
|
| one of us |
Ah...now I see. No class vs high class | |||
|
one of us |
I find it amusing that CB has come full circle in the time I've been alive & reading gun rags. He was THE "Magnum Man" when I was a teen. Now he's aged and not needing the pounding to feel a thrill I suppose. Seems to me he was in on a .425 something. | |||
|
One of Us |
Hey, he writes for a living. Got write about something and his article is a good one. He wrote a great article 20 odd years ago about the Winchester 88 barreled for the 358 Win, which got me interested in the 358 Win and many other interesting cartridges. Still haven't built my 358, but I have the brass and the action waiting for it.... Dave | |||
|
| one of us |
Are you insane? P.S. The question is rhetorical. | |||
|
| Moderator |
now that's funny am i insane? nope . do i see the 280 and the 7x64 as distinctly different FACTORY rounds? that's evident ... do i see a need for the 280 or the 270, since the 7x64 predates them both? Nope.. do i own all three? well, yeah... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| one of us |
please explain how they are different. | |||
|
| Moderator |
I did -- a couple times ... 7x64 - faster twist, heavier bullets, classic design, the FIRST, but nearly a decade over the 270 and 40+ years over the 280. 280 - designed for semi's - (yes, really), lighter bullets, and slower twist which is a GREAT comparison of the 6.5x55 (which is suitable for elk) vs the 260 rem, which is suitable for deer, in factory dress. all of the above is "in factory trim".. YES you can reload/handload to whatever level you want. something like <10% of shooters are reloaders, and most of them use cup and core bullets... then again, some people think the 45/70 is suitable for african biggame opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
A rem 700 .260rem with 140NP factory, is no good for elk?,... or the factory 120GMX or 120X ,or 120e-tip ...for that matter?
its no longer 1957, and today we have modern factory load 140,150 monometals, 140,150,160 premium cupcores. that work just fine in 1 in 10" twist...and will kill anything you have any business pointing it at. 280 offers so much, I would have little interest or need of a 7x64 shooting 170gn Norma. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'm playing with a 7x57 right now, but have taken dear with the 7mm-06 with 160gn Grand Slam. While the 7x64 has a lot of nostalgia and cool factor, the 280 has nothing to be ashamed about. All pissing matches aside, I would confidently hunt any non-dangerous game with any of the three with a good 160-175 grain bullet. Matt Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
|
| one of us |
you're describing differences in everything but the cartridge (rifles, twist rates, bullets, etc.) My point is that the CARTRIDGES are ballistic twins....same bullet diameter, essentially the same case capacity. What is the relevance of date of introduction? I guess the 44-40 is better than the 7x64 because it's older? What is the relevance of the % of shooters who are handloaders. You like heavy bullets? Remington offers a 175gr CoreLokt "in factory trim" Speaking of % of shooters, what tiny percent of American shooters do you think use the 7x64? The advantage of heavy for caliber bullets is that they go slower and penetrate deeply. Today's premium bullets "in factory trim" negate the penetration advantage, while offering flatter trajectories. It's certainly OK for you to like the nostalgia, the history and the fine rifles associated with the 7x64. or the 6.5x55, or the 7x57. All of us have our quirks. (I happen to like the 257 Roberts, the 225 Win, the 264 WM, among others.) We all have our preferences. But don't try to convince anyone that the 7x64 and the 280 Rem are vastly different as cartridges. They may have a different history, application, and use, but the cartridges themselves are peas in a pod. | |||
|
| One of Us |
jeez. everybody knows the 7x61 is the round with all the grace and class. | |||
|
| One of Us |
That's my take on things. analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
|
| One of Us |
A .260 with 140gr factory loaded partition do not meet the energy/bullet weight level in scandinavia for elk. As a handloaded it may do so then pick a specific rifle. In the hunting regulation 155gr bullets are favored. For moose a 155gr bullet is the best choice or a change to .30cal min .150gr monometal. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Here we have a different wiew on thats a light for caliber bullet the standard weight for .30s is 180gr. In my team there is one(of 22) hunter/reloader using barnes tsx 150-165grin .308w he is the only one using mono metal bullets. One other is using 200gr norma oryx in his .308w because it has the same trajectory as .180gr but more sd. My hunting/reloading buddy dont want to try the 165gr weight of Oryx because he thinks it will do more bloodshot meat than the 180gr still the same type of bullet. | |||
|
| Moderator |
It's obvious by the backlash that we disagree - generally when people disagree this diametrically, there is more going on than what it seems. Since this is medium bores, and not either reloading or wildcatting, I'll stick to factory considerations and CIP rules for the 7x64 .. you are, of course, welcome to your own and entire opinions on whatever you like. I seem them as HERE is the standard -- and here is the 90% clone that does NOTHING better.
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hunting laws is not a opinion as they have to be followed. .140gr 2700j at 100m or 155gr 2000j is the legal limit for biggame. A 7*57 with standard 10g/156gr bullet do meet the requirement so do .270w with 140-150gr bullets. 3006 and .308w is kind of traditional calibers in europe too then the hunters used them for 50years or more. | |||
|
| one of us |
Nordic: some of our states have stupid, outdated rules, too. Jeff: I, too, was quoting factory loads, neither hand loads, nor wildcats. The cartridges are essentially equivalent. You're welcome to your opinion on rifles, twists, bullets, phases of the moon, etc. Bye now, I have a sock drawer to get organized. | |||
|
| Moderator |
Hey Army, Thank You for serving our Country  opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Energy is a misleading statistic at best. Driving up the velocity and hence its energy value becomes self destructive with frangible lead-core bullets - it shatters and penetration suffers, but it makes a mess where it dinintegrates and often do not reach the vitals. A 120 gr TSX bullet in a 260 Rem or 6.5x55 Swede is much better than a 140 gr Soft bullet that is not bonded - but this is not recognised by those that make the laws. Once a bullet loses a major percentage of its weight on impact, it loses its momentum too that must be driving the bullet forward. Pieter | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Sensible Sevens - Craig Boddington
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
EDIT!!! 
roger