quote:

Most shooters admit that recoil is somewhat subjective. Abundant anecdotal evidence indicates that the louder the report of the gun, the greater the recoil the shooter perceives. While a muzzle brake may very well somewhat reduce the actual acceleration to the shoulder from the buttstock, the notable increase in report it produces often causes the shooter to perceive greater, not lesser, occurance of recoil.

Without doubt. Give my daughter a .22 and she'll shoot it very well. Give her my .357 Ruger 101 that's Magnaported and is LOUD, she flinches every time. The recoil with .38 +P's isn't heavy. She percieves the noise as recoil and flinches.

I have had little experience with shooting braked rifles, with the exception of a .50 Barrett. I don't think there will be much debate on whether that rifle needs one.

I once, however, had the experience of being spotted next to a guy at the range who had one on a .300 Win, and when it went off, I thought something like a grenade had exploded near me, because the blast wave almost physically moved me over.

I can see varminters using them to call their shots, but if a rifle has an excessive muzzle blast or too much recoil for a shooter, I'd move down in caliber a couple of notches before I'd screw a brake onto it. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:In using a Vais muzzle brake it is imperative to get the newest model available which is NOT the one with the holes in the front of the brake.

There has been significant improvement in the noise levels with the latest models.

I was close to ordering the old style Vais Brake from Midway. Could you steer me to the new version? I'm aware that George Vais in in Boise now, that's within driving distance for me.

Confusion........

Ron Bartlet now owns Vais Brakes ... http://www.muzzlebrakes.com/

Interesting reading........ http://vaismuzzlebrakes.com/

So, is George Vais in business? Is he currently making muzzle brakes?

quote:

Give her my .357 Ruger 101 that's Magnaported and is LOUD

I have a Ruger Blackhawk .357 mag with a 6 1/2" barrel, a S&W .357 with a 6" barrel, and used to have another S&W .357 with a 4" barrel. None are ported or braked. They are all LOUD and the 4" was the loudest.

I also have two Ruger Super Blackhawks with 7 1/2" barrels in .44 mag that I used to shoot alot. It seemes like the .357's have a sharper, if not louder report than the .44's.

Seeing recoil as a test of manhood always struck me as silly. Less recoil = smaller groups and quicker second shots if you need them. I've got brakes on most of my rifles and one pistol, a scandium .41 mag. I like them plenty. The only time someone else's muzzle brake ever bothered me at the range was when a club member was sighting in a "475" for an African lion hunt he had planned. It did sound like the crack of doom and made me duck at the first shot when I was 15 yrd.s away. But, he paid his club dues so what the heck. Some like chocolate and some like vanilla.

The only rifle I have a brake on is a 338RUM. It is not really a brake but porting on the end of the custom barrel


It is not the most effective brake but is not the loudest either and does not have any "blowback" like others I have shot. No puff of air back in your face or blow crap off the loading bench. It is also solid on the bottom to prevent blowing dust up or ruining paint on your hood.

Also I bedded in 2 mechanical recoil suppressors in the stock, an HS Precision



It is still an "event" when it goes off but recoils like a 300 win mag. No one at the range has even commented on the noise or blast. 300 win mags do not bother me and I can shoot them all day but 338's do bother me. I can shoot my 338 RUM all day.

That being said I am rebarreling an action to a 375 Ruger right now and it will not have a brake, but I will probably install recoil suppressors in the stock and it will be a heavy rifle.

To each his own.

I'm a lot more sensitive to noise/muzzle blast than recoil. Even doubled up (muffs plus ear plugs) I admit to reacting (flinching!) to the blast from braked rifles next to me on the range. I like bigger bore rifles, and shoot 338 Lapua up to 458 Lott regularly. My .17 HMR Cooper LVT is my go to to ground squirrel rifle followed by my Lott. The LVT is of course the easiest to shoot but the RSM Lott is the most rewarding! Putting big rounds down range on tiny targets just satisfies my jones.

My Lapua is my mulie/elk rifle. It is an early Sako TRG-S and has served me (and a good friend)
well, accounting for 6 elk and 3 mulie bucks. A recent conversation with a customer in my shop (a footwear and clothing business, not a gun shop) told me I was full of it, as a hunting weight Lapua would be uncontrollable. He went on to say that his 300 Ultra Mag HAD to have a brake to be shootable. Being in the customer service business I just went along with it...

I went from fearing a 300 Win to loving a Lott by deciding I was going to learn how to cope with the recoil through rifle/scope set up and practice. I will not say I have mastered the big bores but will say I want to.

My hunting buds, some of which shoot better on game than I just don't like the recoil above the 7mm Mag. Thats perfectly fine and they put game down. I like the challenge of shooting a bigger rifle well, and know I NEED to practice and LIKE to shoot a heavier weapon. I LOVE shooting my Lott with 405s at 2400 at groung squirrels. Hydraulic displacement! My buds think I am nuts and now don't even shoot my 375s, 416s and 458 Lott. Again that is okay. To shoot bigger rifles demands a mind set that one will shoot the bigger rifles well. And work on it.

I can see a brake on a dedicated varmit rifle when all shooters are muffed up. I can see getting a brake on my Swift for this application, as even the Swift can take you off target during recoil.

On a hunting rifle the question alters. My customer with his braked 300 says in a hunting situation you will 1: be far enough from your partner as it won't matter, and in hunting you won't notice it. As to the the hunting partner, I have been in enough real world shoots on game that although you think you are clear the blast is there big time. Yes you TRY to make sure of your shooting position but are you even with or how in front of your partner? Things happen fast when that 30" mulie busts out of its hole. Yes as a responsible shooter you clear your bud but by how much? MBs love to share their blast with those a little to the side and behind the shooter.

My customer says that while hunting you don't notice the blast. This is true, but the damage to your ears occurs whether you notice or not.

I am not against muzzle brakes per se. I am against those that promote them without regard to their drawbacks. To my customer that requires a brake on his 300 Ultra and says it HAS to be I say, okay maybe for you but not for everyone. Brakes have their advantages AND disadvantages. For me, for a big game field gun they don't cut it. For a varmint shoot all muffed up I might like it!

John

I like to learn things the hard way I guess....

Few years ago I stumbled on a going-out-of-business sale and got a steal on a 300 wby w/the screw on brake. Took it to the range and it shot quite well so when I booked a trip to Africa for PG later that year I decided it should come along.

I shot a warthog with it and was so happy with the running shot I'd made I didn't pay much attention to the ringing in my ears. Later that day I lined up a simple shot on a blesbuck and completely missed not once but twice. I was flinching so bad I must have looked like I was having a seizure!!!

Fortunately, I also had along my old 338 WM for backup, which I used for every subsequent trophy on the trip.

When I got back home I made an appt with the local ENT where I paid $300 to be told that I had 40% loss in hearing in the left ear and that incessant "ringing" would accompany me to my grave.

Lesson: I WILL NEVER HUNT W/A BRAKED RIFLE AGAIN!!!.....I'm too old to learn sign language.

Well, that's a new one on me. Muzzle brakes improve accuraccy. I guess that's why all of the bench rest shooters have them on their rifles. Then again, if I installed muzzle brakes for a living, I'd say the same thing.
As far as the muzzle brake diverting the gases away from the bullet, that's a bunch of hooie. It may divert the gases before the bullet gets to the end of the muzzle but it doesn't change the fact that at some point the gases blow out to the side whilst the bullet goes forward. Old P.T. was right.

I have a tactical brake on my .300 Win Mag. I shoot it in little matches around here. I love the brake. When you are shooting 60 to 70 rounds of .300 Win Mag, it's the only way to go for reducing recoil. I do agree that shooting next to someone using a brake sucks. The blast of wind that hits you scares the S#@! out of you when you are trying to concentrate on squeezing the trigger! Even with this rifle, sometimes I can watch the bullet impact the target.

I just had a take off barrel installed on a light hunting rifle. It is in 7 mm RUM. A brake will go on that puppy instantly.

My buddy had a brake installed on his .30-06. He has a 11 year old son that used it to kill his first big game animal; a doe antelope. It's great that he can get started hunting and shooting without being turned off by uncomfortable recoil. Whether you think you're a tough guy or not, recoil does effect your shooting technique.

By the way, ear plugs AND EARMUFFS OVER THEM is what I recommend. There is definitely an increase in noise to the shooter and close by spectators.

I don't know about the tough guy stuff. If anything, it's the reverse. When the owner of the Thumper is hanging around the water cooler bragging to his non-shooting friends about the awsome cannon he is shooting, I doubt that he mentions that he uses a recoil suppressor.
If you're only gonna shoot your boomer once or twice a year, it's not going to be fun. Nor is a 30-06 or a 12 gauge shotgun for that matter. You have to shoot any rifle that has significant recoil regularly to stay good with it.
I have a sneaky supicion that the shooters that have brakes on their rifles don't shoot them any more than if they didn't have them.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Hate 'em, hate 'em, hate 'em. I totally agree with the idea that if you can't handle the rifle, you shouldn't have the rifle.

I also agree that anyone that sez: "I have a muzzle BREAK on my rifle......" should have his rifle hammered into a plow share and stuck up his ass.

FYI, I do not feel strongly about this.

No, I don't feel strongly about some other ignoramus damaging my ears either! N o do I have much of a love affair with felt recoil! My solution is a 'quiet brake'! My own invension and it damn well works. By the the way, an increase in 1.5 to 2 dBa is a massive increase in sound pressure energy! The human ear cannot actually detect the difference in muzzle blast because it is in overload already, but the ear damage is far, far worse. Wear earmuffs on the range and the difference between braked and unbraked becomes very apparent! My device cuts the muzzle blast very noticeably and is no bigger than a regular brake (or as I call them, a muzzle blast intensifier!)

I think muzzle brakes are wasted on rifles, they are for heavy arty, if you want to tame rifle recoil, fit a moderator

quote:

Originally posted by RoyB:
Confusion........

Ron Bartlet now owns Vais Brakes ... http://www.muzzlebrakes.com/

Interesting reading........ http://vaismuzzlebrakes.com/

So, is George Vais in business? Is he currently making muzzle brakes?

Yes George Vais is in business, not on muzzlebrakes but on silencers www.htgsilencers.com. I have sole some muzzlebrakes in the aria of boise and i have two patents on muzzlebrakes. Patent #6,752,062 and # 6,820,530. One is quieter 2-4 dB than Bartlett's and more effective on recoil, and the other is 6-8 dB quieter than Bartlett's and is also very recoil effective. I am selling the muzzlebrake patents and the will be on the market early next year. By the way i am retiring shortly.

scottfromdallas wrote:

quote:

All those tiny holes drive the muzzle blast and noise back at you. People next to you get the worst of the noise and blast as the holes generally port most of the blast at a 45 degree angle from the shooter.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. In the first sentence you say "those tiny holes drive the muzzle blast and noise back at you." In the second sentence you say "the holes generally port most of the blast at a 45 degree angle from the shooter."

How can the muzzle blast and noise be driven back to you if most of the blast is ported at a 45 degree angle from the shooter?

The KDF brakes that I have on my .375 RUM and .300 Wby have holes that are perpendicular to the bore. These holes allow some of the expanding gasses to escape perpendicularly from the barrel approximately 1/36,000 of a second before all of the remaining gas from the barrel in all directions.

And stillbeeman posted:

quote:

I have a sneaky suspicion that the shooters that have brakes on their rifles don't shoot them any more than if they didn't have them.

Well, I know I'm not your average shooter, but the first time I took my .375 RUM to the range, I shot it 8 times, put it back into it's case, and told myself that I wouldn't shoot it again without a brake. The addition of the KDF muzzle brake VERY NOTICEABLY reduced the felt recoil of this rifle.

I have taken this rifle to Africa twice. In preparation for these hunts, I shot this rifle several hundred times from the bench, from sticks, offhand, and from a tight sling sitting position.

The first time I took it to Africa, in Zimbabwe, my "check the zero" first two bullets, full power 300 gr Barnes TSX's, cut the 100 yd target 1/2" apart and 2" above the point of aim. My PH was smiling when he brought the target back, and the man filming the hunt remarked that I was the first hunter that they had that year that kept his head on the stock after the shot.

The second time I took this braked .375 RUM to Africa, I shot 3 animals from a prone position without any discomfort from recoil.

I also often take my braked .300 Wby to the range and shoot 10-20 full power loads through it, then go around the berm and shoot 100 or more 12 ga skeet or trap targets WITH NO SORE SHOULDER.

I like to shoot, and I like to shoot accurately and muzzle brakes and/or porting are a tool that allows me to shoot without the abuse from recoil.

I like em when used properly. They are a tool, not a bandaid as many of the chest thumpers always try to say. Probably the same guys that pushed smaller kids around in school and stole their milk money cause they were bigger and tougher "men". I'm not recoil shy, but I sure as hell do not enjoy it. Getting smacked in the shoulder time after time after time, hurts. I tried a slip on pad, and a PAST at the same time...load developing my 300 Wby still sucked big time. My old 300wsm with a brake was a delight to shoot all day long. Its noisy, yea, so what? Double up on ear protection, and try to space yourself out from other guys at the range. My next 300wsm is sure as heck sporting a muzzle brake, anyone that wants to shoot a 5lbs 300 mag to prove they've got more testosterone then me is welcome to come share a shooting lane with me lol cause even if it doesn't bother you, I just don't care. BUT, it WILL be a removable brake for the field. Use it to practice, remove it to hunt. Don't see what the big deal is.

Shoot what you want, how you want. Other peoples opinions will always be different.

I only shoot one rifle with a brake & that's a Para FAL fitted with a DNTC.
It makes reacquisition of a target noticeably quicker & for times when multiple shots are needed it is a boon.
It's NOT something to use for hunting, or at a busy range.

I know a gunsmith who necked down a 416 rigby to 9.3 and was sending 286 gr bullets out at approx 3000fps. the rifle weighed about 10.5 lbs and had a brake system in the barrel he devised. I shot it with hearing protection and it felt like a 20 ga shotgun. my dad said it was something else to hear and he was about 35 feet behind me and to my right.

i usually don't hear the rifle go off that much when firing at game which does not mean I am not being damaged by it. I am planning on going to a pair of recoil reducing ear plugs for general hunting.

as far as recoil, i rather enjoy my 375.

I haven't read all of this. If someone else has said this, I apologize.

I have one on my dangerous game rifles. I have them on NOT to reduce recoil but allow me to recover quickly and fire a second shot faster. With dangerous game, this could make a difference between living and dying.

I will be happy when they find something that makes all rifles quieter. I think the noise is infinitely worse than the recoil.

Silencers reduce the noise of all firearms; some more than others. We just need to convince our law makers that our ears are more important their their prejudices.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
The only rifle I have a brake on is a 338RUM.

To each his own.

Here is the recoil reducer on my 338 RUM. $50 plus the $200 tax. Very effective, but not able to be used at all times.



Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by real Vais:
Yes George Vais is in business, not on muzzlebrakes but on silencers www.htgsilencers.com. I have sole some muzzlebrakes in the aria of boise and i have two patents on muzzlebrakes. Patent #6,752,062 and # 6,820,530. One is quieter 2-4 dB than Bartlett's and more effective on recoil, and the other is 6-8 dB quieter than Bartlett's and is also very recoil effective. I am selling the muzzlebrake patents and the will be on the market early next year. By the way i am retiring shortly.

Thanks George, very interesting. I didn't know that you were on this forum.

What percentage of recoil reduction could I expect from either of your brakes on a 6 1/2 lb 300WSM?

Do you still do installations yourself?

If not, is there a brand or manufacturers name that I should keep an eye out for next year?

Enjoy your retirement and I wish you good health.


Bigfoot

Interesting stuff here on Muzzle Breaks.
I'd never shot any rifle with a break on it until this past summer. A buddy asked me to work up some loads for his Boss System Browning 7mm mag, so I did the shooting during the initial load development.
I had hearing protection on at all times shooting from the bench, and I noticed no objectionable noise from the Boss. The thing that was very apparant was the muzzle did not rise up like it does with my un-braked 7mm Mag, and overall recoil was less with his rifle. It was really kind of pleasant shooting his rifle.
That's all of my experience with Breaks, very good I might add.

Gentlemen and Women ----- My story on muzzle brakes follows, for what it is worth. I do a lot of shooting to the tune of 2500 to 3500 rounds per year and have for many years. I like to shoot the same way many people play golf. I do it three days per week and more when I am working on a new rifle for me, my family or friends. I shoot on my private benchs from 100 to 400 yards, so I have no issues with complainers next to me on noise. For years I hunted only Deer and then started on Elk and worked up from a 30-30 to a .308 and then to a .300 Winny. No brakes and had fun shooting many rounds. My thing is fast speeds with accuracy, the bigger bullets for bigger animals. ------ An experience with four Big Brown Bears at once caused me to want to go for more firepower. I got a .340 Wby with a brake and could shoot it like any of my other smaller chamberings. I then went up to .358 STA, then to .416 Rem and Rigby, when I went to Africa. I also shoot a .50 BMG my nephew owns, my son-in-law also has one. I can comfortably shoot all those larger rifles because the have muzzle brakes and shoot them enough rounds to build loads that will give me the accuracy I want at the speeds I want. All shooters need to use hearing protection, regardless of brakes or not, or they are very stupid. ----- I contend that the brakes improve accuracy, either by hanging that weight on the end (as in the boss system or simply a stablizing weight of the brake itself), or making the shooter more comfortable in his task because he is not being pounded and can finish his loads instead of quitting in the middle of a session because is becomes too uncomfortable to continue from the recoil. ----- I hunt with a group of 14 Elk hunters, of which eight shoot .300 Winnys with the Boss system. They all shoot essentially the same load and adjust that boss (they don't all use the same setting) to a very acccurate load. I load most of their loads, and this is a very deadly group of shooters and hunters that have gotten their Bull for years from very short yardage out to 500 plus yards. ----- To sum up my brake experience, I use them on everything above a .300 Winny (I also have one on a 7mm STW that is a Laredo Model with bull barrel) and sware that their accuracy and comfortable use make me and mine better takers of game. You can only make your own decision on the brake, but don't be calling me a pussy for using one, or tell me to down size, I like what I shoot and will continue. I like my one hole groups and big bullets. Good shooting.

Bench and varmint: Yes

Big Game hunting : No

Thank you for the inquire, i do not make muzzlebrakes any more, i am very busy with my silencer business. The recoil redaction is very good close to max you can get by a brake. Ironically with help of an engineer friend of mine i have design a very good devise to measure recoil very accurately, and that also is going on hell after the court order, That and to very good patents setting on site with no use. one of my muzzlebrakes was so quiet to the point people were saying (there is no sound increase). I lost and so the consumer. The rest are mentioned at the www.vaismuzzlebrakes.com

quote:

Originally posted by Big-foot:

quote:

Originally posted by real Vais:
Yes George Vais is in business, not on muzzlebrakes but on silencers www.htgsilencers.com. I have sole some muzzlebrakes in the aria of boise and i have two patents on muzzlebrakes. Patent #6,752,062 and # 6,820,530. One is quieter 2-4 dB than Bartlett's and more effective on recoil, and the other is 6-8 dB quieter than Bartlett's and is also very recoil effective. I am selling the muzzlebrake patents and the will be on the market early next year. By the way i am retiring shortly.

Thanks George, very interesting. I didn't know that you were on this forum.

What percentage of recoil reduction could I expect from either of your brakes on a 6 1/2 lb 300WSM?

Do you still do installations yourself?

If not, is there a brand or manufacturers name that I should keep an eye out for next year?

Enjoy your retirement and I wish you good health.


Bigfoot