I was at the range today and had the pleasure of sitting next to a guy with a muzzle brake. He looked healthy enough and he was shooting a 270. The guy 3 lanes down had his 7mm Weatherby with muzzle brake. Needless to say I was getting blasted from both sides with waves of energy.

I admit that I was guilty of this 10 years ago with a 338 Mag. The MB sounded like a good idea, make the 338 shoot like a 270. I quickly realized effects of the MB were not worth the recoil reduction. I sold the 338 mag and bought a 308 and am much happier from the bench.

I basically decided if I couldn't "man up" and handle the recoil of a caliber, I wouldn't own it.

Anyone have any opinions on this subject? I'm sure someone will bring up the point about a bad shoulder. I happen to have a bad shoulder and my biggest caliber is a 338 Federal which should be good for anything I'll have a chance to hunt.

I'd love to get a 375 H&H or 375 Ruger someday but if I need a MB to handle the recoil, I'll pass.

I lived in Canada's far north for many years and while I had many calibres to choose from, more times than not I reached for the .338 WM. Great calibre then and now. When I moved back to Ontario, I heard great things about the 7mm-08 so on a whim I bought one. I played round with it for quite a while and now I own three. To be honest, with the right bullets I wouldn't hesitate to take the 7mm-08 for any game with the exception of the big bears. My son has taken two elk with his with 140 grain A-Frames. I now have the reverse situation where more often than not, I'll reach for the 7mm-08. On muzzle brakes, I won't hunt with anyone using one.

I had the pleasure to sight in a 22-250 with a break(boss)on it yesterday.It sounded more like a large mag and yes I used plugs and ear muffs.Just like you if I needed one the cart.might be too large for me to shoot with comfort.Good Luck

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
...if I need a MB to handle the recoil, I'll pass.

My thoughts exactly.

Not all muzzle breaks handle the noise situation the same.

I have an improved Vais Muzzle Break on my 300 Win Mag. This is the version that George Vais is putting out now. It reduces the recoil of a 180grain 3050 fps load down to a 243 level with an increase measured at 1.5 to 2.0 decibel increase. That amount of increase is very hard to pick up with the human ear.

I've tested it braked and non braked with shooters standing close by and none have been able to detect an increase in sound.

Geez guys, they're brakes not "breaks".

As far as needing them on a 375 H&H, you won't. Rifles chambered in 375 usually weigh more which slows down the felt recoil. It also has a fairly large bore which gives more area for the gas to escape and gives a lower gas velocity.

why not just stick a recoil reducer in the butt stock and be happy?

I got boxes of 505 Gibbs loaded up, and I will gladly supply the ammunition for you to sit down at the bench and then let me know what you think of the reducer...

Rich

Hate 'em, hate 'em, hate 'em. I totally agree with the idea that if you can't handle the rifle, you shouldn't have the rifle.

I also agree that anyone that sez: "I have a muzzle BREAK on my rifle......" should have his rifle hammered into a plow share and stuck up his ass.

FYI, I do not feel strongly about this.

I was at the range, when someone showed up with a muzzle brake. I stepped back away from the bench every time he shot.
IMHO they are a hazard hunting things that can hurt you, want all my senses sharp after the shot.

I have the boss on my 300WM. I use the MB at the range if I'm going to shoot alot ie trying new loades however I'm aware of the blast so I find times other guys are not there or I don't use it if other guys are at the range. I never use it hunting one or two shoots a season no big deal. It's just for comfort at the range. Like alot of things in this world it's about respecting others which unfortuately is the last thing on most peoples minds.

At our club shooting station are about 6ft wide shooting bench is in the middle. I've had guys with brakes next too me and it's not bad.

I've got acouple rifles with brakes just have to be alittle more courteous of others. Club established firing line that solve alot of problems and have about 25/30 shooting stations so have plenty of room.

We have one member who been shooting 338mag since the 60's he got a new one afew years ago and he will shoot that without a brake maybe after 10/15rd he put the brake on. He's 81

quote:

"I have a muzzle BREAK on my rifle......" should have his rifle hammered into a plow share and stuck up his ass.

I guess you guys don't hunt varmints. A 220 Swift or 22-250 with a good brake allows you to witness you hits (or misses).....

My 257 Roberts Ackley has a brake made by Brockman that can be turned on and off. If I'm shooting coyotes wityh 75gr bullets the brake is on and I can see my hits. When hunting with 117gr big game loads there is no need for the brake and it is tuirned off. Best of both worlds

www..rvbprecision.com

I have a muzzel Brake on two of my rifles But I take them off when hunting. They just screw off
and then I put a screw protector on in its place TO save my threas.

Insted of a muzzle brake, do any of you have any experience with having the barrel ported?
I have been considering doing this to my 7mmRemMag, but have not read much about it.
What do you think?

quote:

I basically decided if I couldn't "man up" and handle the recoil of a caliber, I wouldn't own it.

ditto. I have an 8.5 lb 300 RUM and an 8.5 lb .458 Win. No brake on either, I'm 67 with a bad back and weigh 155. If I can shoot 'em, then a 40 yr. old at 185/225 can, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Geez guys, they're brakes not "breaks".

I fixed my post just for you Frank.

Speaking or recoil...I saw this for the first time recently and could not stop laughing. I'm sure many of you have already seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Zs-euZU&feature=fvsr

I've killed a ton or two of varmints. Pdogs and Ghogs and coyotes. You can tell the hits because the animal falls over or goes flying thru the air. I have no desire to see, as some of the newer shooters call it, the spatter.
I've never shot a Swift but I do shoot a 22-250 VS and a .223 VS.

Leopardtrack,
I have a Blaser bbl. in 9,3x62 that's Mag-Na-Ported. I can't say I feel a difference in recoil or noise but what's noticeable is that the rifle recoils straight in line, with practically no muzzle jump. This rifle is used for drive hunting (all running shots) and the porting allows much faster repeating.

I have installed 100's of muzzle brakes on all sizes of rifles. Most have been on long range varmit rifles. Long range shooters use them for two reasons. With a MB you don't loose sight picture and MB's improve accuracy. They deflect the escaping gases away from the bullet. Kenny Jarrett puts them on most of his rifles for that reason. I have them on some of my big rifles and only use them at the range. I won't shoot them unless I have plenty of space between me and the next shooter and I definetly won't hunt with one. You don't feel recoil in the field. Muzzle brakes are a tool and need to be used wisely. The Vais brake does have less noticably noise and it also has less recoil reduction than other brakes. As with most things it's a trade-off. I have had long discussions with the Harrell brothers about muzzle brakes (they make Kenny Jarrett's and the ones I use) and they both dislike them but agree they have their uses.

We all know that practice is one of, if not, the most important thing you can do with our rifle to prepare for hunting. If a MB is needed for you to shoot comfortably from the bench so you know what the rifle and load combination is capable of, it's worth it. You can remove the break later and practice shooting in hunting situations, like off sticks.

I love to find rifles that people don't want because it has a muzzle break. If you don't want the break, 10 min. in the lathe and it's gone. If it doesn't have a cap get one made. It's no reason to not buy a rifle.

BTW I wouldn't shoot a 50 BMG without one, don't like shooting them with one, either, that's serious concusion.

Just my thoughts............Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Geez guys, they're brakes not "breaks".

I like the term "break" for describing blast enhancers. They may brake the rifle but they also break the haircells in my inner ear...

Ok! Somebody has to be the butthead in the group. First let me say I have not hunted with a muzzlr brake for years for all the same reasons stated above with the exception of the "Man up" business. Recoil tolerance has nothing to do with being a man. It is mostly psychological. It you think it is going to hurt it will and you won't be able to shot well.

Anyway I've had maybe 5 rifles with brakes. I still have two and they shoot extremely well with the brakes but kind of mediocre without. The brakes are staying.

On a couple of safaris I've asked PH's about muzzle brakes and most don't like them BUT they had to admit if the client shoots very well with the brake they can put up with it.

I think the point with muzzle brakes is if they make you a better shot they have value particularly with long range rifles and non-DG rifles. Personally I think a muzzlebreak on a DG rifle has no place as it could possible cause more damage to the hunting crew than the buff, ele or whatever.

Mark

Would someone please explain to me how 1 1/2" of holes in the end of a barrel will substantially increase the noise of the shot?

Have any of you nay sayers actually stood to the side of a rifle being shot at night and seen the flame or fire ball coming out of the muzzle?

A muzzle brake or ported barrel allows some of the high pressure gasses to escape through the holes or ports and in the direction of the holes a very split second before the remaining gasses (or all of the gasses of an unbraked barrel) exit the barrel in all directions.

Yesterday evening I was at our local range. I picked a bench that was midway between two other shooters. The rifle on my left was a braked .270 Win. The one on my right was an unbraked .300 Win mag. The .300 Win was very noticeably louder than the braked .270.

Maybe burning more powder yields more noise than burning less powder.

I shoot at least 100 rounds of (mostly 12 ga) skeet and/or trap every Wednesday evening, almost every week of the year. I have done this for over 30 years. I also shot registered trap and skeet for almost 20 years, shooting up to 500 rounds a day for some competitions. Most competitive trap and skeet shooters shoot shotguns with ported barrels. Many new screw-in chokes extend beyond muzzle and have slots or round holes in the extended part, that are essentially a muzzle brake for a shotgun. We all wear ear protection, and unless I actually look at the barrel of the gun being shot, I cannot tell by the noise if it is ported or not.

However, in the fall, just prior to bird seasons, we get a lot of bird hunters who want to shoot a line or two of trap or skeet before going hunting. Often these guys will shoot their hunting loads instead of the generally light target loads that us regulars shoot. Most of the hunting shotguns are not ported. The heavy field loads are very noticeably louder than the lighter trap or skeet loads, even though the lighter loads are shot through ported barrels.

Again, more powder means more noise.

And yes, I have KDF muzzle brakes on two of my hunting rifles. I have also always told my PH or guide to cover their ears just before I make the shot, whether I was shooting a rifle with or without a brake.

Question: Will a muzzle brake hurt my velocity?

Answer: No, it will only hurt your ears and your gun's resale value.

Hate them, but am a fan of mag-na-porting. The comment that mag-na-porting doesn't reduce recoil, but vastly reduces muzzle jump is dead-on.

I have a .300 WinMag, an S&W 686 2.5" .357 and a .500 A2 mag-na-ported. I had the .300 WinMag ported in about 1996, back when I thought that a .300 kicked.

quote:

Originally posted by buffybr:
Would someone please explain to me how 1 1/2" of holes in the end of a barrel will substantially increase the noise of the shot?

Yes. All those tiny holes drive the muzzle blast and noise back at you. People next to you get the worst of the noise and blast as the holes generally port most of the blast at a 45 degree angle from the shooter.

Muzzle brakes without an expansion chamber don't work, they don't even increase the muzzle blast. The gases expand into the chamber and strike the wall as the bullet goes thru it's .020" over bore hole. This causes the gases to make a 90 degree turn, except for those that follow the bullet. Since the excaping gases account for at least 50% of the recoil in magnum calibers especially, this is why MB's work and also why they increase the noise for the shooter and the people near by. Low pressure rounds like the 45-70 don't get much benefit from a MB.

The animal actually hears less. It also makes it very difficult for the animals to figure out where the shot came from.

If you put a shroud over a brake leaving some space between the shroud and the brake they still work and the noise is the same as no MB, but boy is it ugly! Some places might think it's a silencer.

Just my 2 cents.........Tom

Check out the article I wrote on the subject on my web page


www.rvbprecision.com

Recoil pain is temporary, hearing loss is forever. If you are shooting with hearing protection, brakes are OK. If you are hunting or not using hearing protection, better "man-up" and take the recoil or kiss your hearing goodbye. JMHO, if you want to argue this, better write, cause I can't hear shit.

I used to shoot a Galil with a Vias type brake for IPSC ... it was AMAXINGLY loud for every one around!

I bought a pre-64 M70 Winchester custom that happened to have been Magna-ported when it was built. The porting is not as effective as a brake at reducing recoil, but it does reduce muzzle jump ... and the noise level is no where near that of a brake.

Does it really need one? No ... but then I don't have brakes on the larger rifles I own and shoot (.375 H&H, .416 Rigby, and .458 AR as well as .470 NE).

Would I not buy that lovely rifle for the price I paid for it because it was ported? No way I'd pass that one up!

I have a 338 WN mag A-Bolt with the BOSS. I don't use the brake that comes with it at the range and certainly not hunting. The recoil is no issue for me. I would never have a brake on any gun I own. If I see a shooter at the range with a brake and I can't get far enough from them, I leave.

I have a number of rifles with Vais brakes and have found them very effective in recoil reduction with no real increase in noise level. They are primarily on the high velocity 30's and 338's (338RUM & 338/378). This range of recoil seems to upset a couple of problem disc's in my back. It has nothing to do with the "man up" comment. I also shoot a 416Rem, 458WM, 458 Lott, 470NE and a 500NE---the nitro's are Merkels that weigh just over 10lbs--none of these have brakes or recoil reducers.
I have more problem at the range with the noise level from AR15's than any rifles with the newer brakes. The old brakes like the Winchester Boss were horrible for noise and I certainly would not use one of those.

I have a 338rum that i want to put a brake on it is a rem700 weights about 9.5lbs.I want to do long range shooting this summer after about 15shots it starts to hurt,i would not hunt with a brake i like to tape my barrel also i like my hearing. i would practice more with the brake.

Ok I can see the "man up" comment has ticked some people off. I guess I said that because I really think we are over magnumed. I'm not talking about big bores for dangerous game. I'm talking about small to mid bore super magnums.

I can shoot a 300 Win Mag off the bench fairly well. It's a little more recoil than I like that's why I usually shoot 308.

I guess you can call me a wimp because I don't see the point in shooting a 300-378 if it's beyond my comfort level in recoil. What am I giving up? About 300 fps from a 300 Win mag to a 300-378 and a noticeable amount of recoil.

When it comes down to it, I really don't need the extra 300 fps, it buys me nothing in real world performance out to 400 yards.

I guess I could add a muzzle break to it and make everyones life miserable so I can brag about shooting a 300-378.

I think I'd rather stay a wimp. I have no problems staying with calibers that are in my comfort level. They shoot paper and kill animals just as quickly as super duper magnums.

quote:

Originally posted by Tapper2:
Since the excaping gases account for at least 50% of the recoil in magnum calibers . . .

A .300 magnum's typical 180 grain bullet is usually propelled by about 70 grains of powder. Even assuming that none of the mass of the powder was converted to engery when the round was fired, the contribution of the powder gases to recoil would only be approximately 7/25ths, or about 28% of the total.

However, redirecting the shock wave of the escaping gas somewhat toward, rather than directly away from the shooter multiplies the wave pressure on the shooter's ear (the decibel scale being logarithimic, an increase of 10 decibels is akin to doubling the pressure at the ear).

Most shooters admit that recoil is somewhat subjective. Abundant anecdotal evidence indicates that the louder the report of the gun, the greater the recoil the shooter perceives. While a muzzle brake may very well somewhat reduce the actual acceleration to the shoulder from the buttstock, the notable increase in report it produces often causes the shooter to perceive greater, not lesser, occurance of recoil.

quote:

While a muzzle brake may very well somewhat reduce the actual acceleration to the shoulder from the buttstock, the notable increase in report it produces often causes the shooter to perceive greater, not lesser, occurance of recoil.

Yeah but it's not the shoulder that hurts. My RUM generated so much noise with a break that when I shot it without hearing protection, it felt like someone had stuck ice picks in both my ears and they rang for an hour

garydn

I also have a 338 Ultra but it is about a pound lighter than yours when field ready. I have a brake on it and I think the recoil is about 30-06 level if my shoulder is a good gauge. For your purposes the brake willbe a big help. One thing to consider is change in POI once the brake is removed. I had one rifle that shot 2" high and 4" left without the brake.

Mark

when i had my .300 win mag built in 1995, it was the biggest gun in my arsenal... and the builder talked me into a brake.... gun sat in my cabinet unfired for 12 yrs... when i shot it, sitting at a bench, i was blasted by the concussion... recoil???... nominal... about like a .243... but you feel the concussion... i just picked up a nice m70 crf in 7stw with a slimline KDF brake.... it does not blast the shooter.. and felt recoil is ablout like a .243.... i'll get a thread protector and shoot it w/o the brake.... i've shot rodneys .505 gibbs ( used to be idaho sharpshooters') both with and w/o the brake... its pleasant either way...the mercury reducers make the difference..... the .505 that tip burns is building for me on a rem 30 action will have a brake... and also a thread cap....

quote:

A .300 magnum's typical 180 grain bullet is usually propelled by about 70 grains of powder. Even assuming that none of the mass of the powder was converted to engery when the round was fired, the contribution of the powder gases to recoil would only be approximately 7/25ths, or about 28% of the total.
.

.

Mass is the smallest factor with regard to the escaping gases. The velocity of the gases escaping is squared in the formula for energy. Gases escaping at 60,000 psi have a much greater velocity than the bullet, many times more. The more efficent a cartridge is the lower the recoil. A .300 RSAUM has the same ballistics as a .300 Win. Mag. but. less recoil.

Recoil does not have a linear relationship with mass.........Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Scarboro:
I have a number of rifles with Vais brakes and have found them very effective in recoil reduction with no real increase in noise level. They are primarily on the high velocity 30's and 338's (338RUM & 338/378). This range of recoil seems to upset a couple of problem disc's in my back. It has nothing to do with the "man up" comment. I also shoot a 416Rem, 458WM, 458 Lott, 470NE and a 500NE---the nitro's are Merkels that weigh just over 10lbs--none of these have brakes or recoil reducers.
I have more problem at the range with the noise level from AR15's than any rifles with the newer brakes. The old brakes like the Winchester Boss were horrible for noise and I certainly would not use one of those.

In using a Vais muzzle brake it is imperative to get the newest model available which is NOT the one with the holes in the front of the brake.

There has been significant improvement in the noise levels with the latest models.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
garydn

One thing to consider is change in POI once the brake is removed. I had one rifle that shot 2" high and 4" left without the brake.

Mark

Sounds to me like it could use a new crown. I have seen them change like that and recrowning fixed it. The hole in the muzzle brake could be off or the brake was threaded concentric to the barrel and not the bore. If it was installed properly, it's the crown....Tom