Take all the balistic paper data to the bathroom where is has more use,,,The .338 is simply a better killer and shoots as flat as a 300 for me, I seem to hit things just as for with a 210 Nolser at 3000 FPS as anything in the 300....I have both, but I really don't see any comparison...I think you guys that like the 300 are just being loyal to an old friend, and that ain't all bad!

quote:

Originally posted by Jon A:
I know what you meant, AZ, and of course you're right. But I had to address what you said. As one of those "Engineering types" it always bothers me a bit to see statements telling people to ignore the reasons why things work the way they do.



And in this case, a simple understanding may be helpful to somebody. Take the below comparison, for example:



Maybe not a huge difference, but a significant one. If two identical guys load up some ammo for their 338's and go practice at 600 yds, the guy with the 225's will likely have a better day than the guy with 180's even if it's only a mildly breezy day. Even at 4-500 there's a nice improvement if the wind is bad.

But the main point is this improvement is basically "free." Just by choosing a heavier bullet of the same type. Same rifle, same potential accuracy from that rifle, same power level, etc. With all the hoops we handloaders jump through looking for that last nth degree of accuracy, leaving such a significant gain on the table doesn't make much sense, to me, anyway.

About the only thing one is giving up is a trajectory that's a little flatter. But of course you agree with me that you aren't really losing anything there either--if shooting out where it makes a difference you had better be using a rangefinder, in which case the extra drop is easy to compensate for.

And if you actually want to kill something beyond a few football fields away, you're gaining a load that will hit a lot harder the farther you go.

Anyway, I suck at wind doping. I cheat any way I can.

Jon A:

Okay, let me try one more time. If you look at your chart, the drift of that .300 at 600 is the same as the .338 at around 525. So at most, you get 75 yards, assuming you don't compensate at all for the increase in drift.

But in real life, you do compensate, so the real advantage is much less. I was pretty shocked when I discovered this by practicing, but it is true.

I think you need to look at the chart again--there's no .300 vs .338 comparison there. There's no .300 load on the chart at all (my favorite 300 RUM loads drift a fair amount less than either of those but that's not what I was using for the comparison).

I wasn't debating the .300 vs .338. I was showing an improvement one can make by simply choosing a higher SD/BC bullet for the same caliber, same rifle, same everything else, same price for free.

I never said the .338 couldn't do very well at long range--even much better than most could ever use. My point was if that's the goal, choosing light bullets for a flat trajectory isn't the way to get the most out of it. Like you said, drop isn't the enemy, the wind is.

Between those .338 loads you do gain 75 yds (out to 600, more when shooting farther) unless you compensate perfectly every time (maybe you can, I sure as hell can't). In other words, for a X MPH error in wind doping, one load will drift the same distance off its mark at 600 as the other will drift off at 525 with the same error. Like I said, not a huge difference, but it's free.

And Ray, I'll take my ballistic paper to the bathroom as soon as you take your chronograph to the bathroom. Neither are worth much without the other--unless, of course you chronograph your loads at 200, 300 yds, etc. If you say velocity out there where the game is hit doesn't matter, how can it possibly matter any more at the muzzle? Why not us a 338-06?

quote:

And Ray, I'll take my ballistic paper to the bathroom as soon as you take your chronograph to the bathroom. Neither are worth much without the other--unless, of course you chronograph your loads at 200, 300 yds, etc. If you say velocity out there where the game is hit doesn't matter, how can it possibly matter any more at the muzzle? Why not us a 338-06?

Jon,

In my case I do believe in Ballistics, a lot and to a certain extent (range...)

And based on that data I do agree that the .300 WinMag still has an edge...a little one, but an advantage at least.

So my original point could be re taken as being... Is the .338 WinMag a "more versatile round" taking into account its'a ability to shoot the 185 grainers almost as flat as the .300s ?

Jon A:

Ooops, you are right - I didn't look closely.

So try this:

My RUM .300s spit out 180 Nosler BTs at 3300 fps. At 600 yards, those bullets drift 15.1 inches in a 10 mph wind.

My .338, shooting 225 grain bullets at 2700, drift 28.6 inches. At first glance, it seems there is no comparison - the .300 is a hands down winner.

But consider this: the .300 RUM bullet drifts 1.51 inches for every one mph of bullet drift. Now suppose you can shoot 1 moa in the field and the game you pursue has a ten inch vital area. Right off the bat, your 6 inch group fits neatly into the 10 inch target - you even have 2 inches to play with on either side.

Now consider this: you must guess the wind within 1.32 mph (2/1.51) or you risk missing. Suppose the wind is blowing left to right. The bullets on the left side of your 6 inch group are going to drift off the target unless you get the wind down to within 1.32 mph.

The pokey .338 is indeed worse: you need to guess the wind to within .7 mph before you risk a miss.

Now you could say the .300 RUM allows you twice as much error on the guess, but the bottom line is that it is more important to be able to dope the wind than shoot a super fast cartridge.

Unfortunately, those who talk about ballistics are often the same ones afraid to shoot (and in the process learn how to dope the wind) their super fast bullets for fear of wearing out the barrels. And they are right: I own 3 RUMs so I can rotate them thru practice sessions and not wear out those barrels.

First, in my opinion it's rather poor manners to paint stereotypes/generalizations upon people you don't know. You didn't hear me contemplating out loud how much "the average 338 owner" practices beyond 100 yds, much less 600, in reference to anybody else in this thread did you?

With the relatively few number of 300 RUM's out there and yet their huge following in the long range community, I really hope you're not trying to say that "on average" 338 owners practice more at long range, or that nobody who practices much at long range is "allowed" to have an even basic understanding of ballistics.

Second, if you'll actually read the thread, you'll see many arguing about the 300 vs. 338. Notice I am not one of them. The only point I was trying to get across was if somebody wants to "long range hunt" with a 338, the 180-185 grain bullet isn't the best choice. That's it. You clearly agree with this.

But you seem determined to disagree with me even when you agree, so since you agree with my point you keep asking me to defend an arguement I'm not making. Fine then. Sincy you keep wanting the 338 Win vs. 300 RUM comparison....

Your illustration is a good one to show that one who can only shoot 1 MOA under "field conditions" (whatever exactly those are) with absolutely zero wind (do you have some sort of underground or indoor range "in the field" where you can test such a thing?) is going to have some trouble keeping all his shots in the vital zone at 600 yds.

That's exactly why it makes for wonderful practice. It's hard. It's challenging. He'll learn a lot. He'll get better. And he'll be well prepared for a 400 yd shot at game.

Re-run your comparison/illustration at that range so that accuracy alone isn't conveniently covering the entire target. That's a much more realistic scenario for most reading this thread.

Look Jon A:

I like both cartridges. I own 3 RUMs and 1 SAUM. And I used to be a huge velocity/high bC bullet fan. But after shooting a lot, just about every week, at long range, I realized practice was far more important than any cartridge. That is my point.

One example where high BC really does matter is heavy bullets in a .224 centerfire. A Swift firing a 75 grain AMax drifts half as less as a 55 grain.

And yes, I totally agree with you on the 185 grain. And on being prepared for a 400 yard shot by shooting at 600 yards; it is like swinging an extra bat in batting practice.

The accuracy covering the target also shows why every bit of accuracy counts a lot, even in terms of your allowable wind error.

I first have to admit that i am no fan of the fast .30's they have there place and i own several but the simple fact is that 308 is as good for my use as 300 mag.
I load the 160 175 and 185 barnes x in 338 but i like the 160 the best it is just a fabulous medium game round im not gonna have the arithmatic argument ill just say that with my loads in 160 and 250 x's the zero does not move much and 4831 works great for both. In my hunting the 338 just seems to kill better and the 250 barnes x cranked up works a lot better at long range for me.