The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Why, why, why is the 338 Fed in 10" twist?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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One of Us |
Does anyone know a logical reason why the 338 Federal was offered in 10" twist rate rather than 12", especially considering the intended use of lighter bullets? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | ||
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| One of Us |
More versatility? Just guessing as too slow a twist is always a problem and too fast a twist never is. | |||
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One of Us |
RPMs of the bullet are dependent on two factors 1. Twist rate 2. velocity of the bullet At .338 federal velocities the RPMs are going to be slower than with a .338 Mag or a .338-06 so quicken the twist rate a bit! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
CAS II, That statment seems to be the common view on the subject of twist rate. I sorta agree and sorta disagree. The main reason for disagreement is because of the use of words like "always" and "never". You know I respect you, so a little scolding is not out of order.  For starters, the slow twist becomes a problem only if the bullets used are too long and heavy to stabilize properly. Twist rate faster than necessary is generally a problem because it can cause little flaws in cup and core or bonded type bullets to be magnified (for lack of a better word). Perhaps it can be said that there is an optimum twist rate for any given bullet/velocity. However, in order to gain versitility, it's clear that a slightly faster twist rate provides more versitility in bullet weight selection, than a slow twist rate. Another thing that is clear - a 10" twist rate is faster than necessary to stabilize 180gr - 225gr .338 bullets, which are the bullet weights of choice for the 338 Fed. As you may guess, the 10" twist rate for ANY 338 is a pet peeve of mine. I struggled with a 10" twist in a 338WM for several years, and several rifles. The darn things would shoot 250gr bullets OK, but anything lighter opened up. Then finally I forked out the cash to have a custom barrel in 12" twist -- problem solved. That rifle shoots 200 - 250gr bullets just great, and especially my favorite the 225gr. So, that's where I'm coming from. OK vapo, Your analysis of reduced velocity is understandable. No argument there. That would be my guess too. However, an equally valid guess is that when setting the SAAMI specs, they just defaulted to the commonly accepted 10" twist rate, which initally was to stabilize a 300gr bullet. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| One of Us |
The reason I'm giving this some thought is because I would like to buy a 338 Fed, and all I see are 10" twists. My experience with the 338WM tells me that the 12" twist is better. If velocity difference is enough to warrant going with the faster twist, then OK. It would be much cheaper to buy a factory rifle, than a custom barrel. The way I see it, the heaviest bullet I would consider in the 338 Fed is about 215gr Sierra, or 210 gr Noslers, with the various 200 gr bullets being the best choice. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| One of Us |
I never get my feeling hurt when someone disagrees with me. There are lots of guys who have had great successes doing things differently than me. A flawed bullet will never shoot well, regardless of twist, so I am comfortable in my assertion with respect to the 338 Fed. The only time that too fast a twist is a problem is when shooting at extreme ranges. Apparently the nose of the bullet will not tip down properly resulting in more drag. Ken Howell explained it much better than I ever could several years back. However, in this discussion the 338 Fed hardly qualifies as a long range chambering so I doubt anyone would ever be handicapped by a slightly fast twist. I happen to like faster twists and generally spec barrels at the faster end of the spectrum solely because of the versatility such tubes allow for. In my experience, fast twist tubes that don't shoot lighter bullets well just happen to choose those loads to not like. Every tube ever made has loads that it won't shoot well, purely by coincidence some shoot light for caliber loads well, some heavy for caliber. I'd speculate that if your fast twist tubes had been rifled with a slower twist instead, they still wouldn't like those loads. Of course with no way to prove it either way, I'm probably safe. | |||
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| One of Us |
I must admit that I wasn't aware that the twist rate was in the SAAMI specs for the cartridge. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
OK CAS II and vapo, I figure that your response to this delemma (supposedly) is about as good as it's gonna get. I think you nailed it. I used to think that experience with the 338WM that I explained above actually proved something, but then I got a CZ in 7x57 with a really fast twist, and long throat. Short story is that I discovered it likes 140gr bullets, and hates 175gr bullets. Go figure.  That's just one example. The only way to really know is try it. Every rifle is different. I think it's an interesting cartridge. Regards, KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| One of Us |
I could surely be mistaken there.  Yet, all the factory offerings seem to be 10" twist. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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One of Us |
Well...one reasom may simply is that 338 WMs are 1 in 10 and the mfg doesn't want to have to inventory another 338 cal bbl and tie up working capital and as previously stated faster twist si rarely a problem...therefore the mfg decides to only invetory 1 338 cal bbl and it is 1 in 10 bbl. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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| One of Us |
That's the answer I believe. Make all you .338 barrels in one run instead of two. | |||
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| One of Us |
Just about all factory 338 bores are one in 10 twists, regardless of caliber.. I am sure the 338 Federal has a one in 10 twist rate, because something different would cause the need and expense for more equipment... and I doubt if rifle makers are making enough of them to invest in the equipment, when the one in 10 twist will work just fine... remember their standards of accuracy are in tune with the general publics ( read that as the average Nimrod who buys his ammo at Walmart and does a 3 shot group each fall before season and is happy as a clam when all three shots just hit the paper at 100 yds..) not in tune with many like us, that demand more accuracy than Joe Public usually does... with a good understand of marketing and/or running a business... it is easier to understand some of the 'dumb' decisions you guys seem to think the industry makes at times.. in the end, it is still ran by bean counters.. and if they can get the cost for a quarter, they are not going to increase their costs to 35 cents... just to satisfy the boys over in marketing who say the extra 10 cent costs, will help sell the product more or easier.. believe me, most 'stupid' decisions in any business in ANY industry, was usually made by a bean counter.. who is oblivious to the working end of that business...they just move figures from this column to that column... and that is about it.. | |||
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| One of Us |
I sure have enjoyed the 12" twist rate in 308 Win. I really like shooting those 165gr bullets through it. One of those 12" twist 3 groove .338 PacNor barrels looks pretty tempting, for the same reason the 12" twist works so well in .308. It just has to be better for using the 200 gr .338 bullets. Heck, we don't usually shoot 220gr bullets in the 308 Win, and likewise for the 270-300gr bullets in 338 Fed. So, I see no advantage in opting for the fast twist. And yes, I certainly do believe it is detrimental to accuracy. Otherwise the BR shooters would follow the same thought of defaulting to a faster twist. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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because of 2 reasons 1: to shoot longer bullets 2: to CHEAT to use the fact that the fast twist barrels keep pressure up longer .. resulting in more TiME under pressure .. and higher vels opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
One could make some wonderful sub-sonic rounds shooting 300grain MK  DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| One of Us |
Kab, Keep in mind twist is about stabilization for length of bullet not weight. Monolithics are long for weight requiring faster twists. For this reason alone I always have my rifles built/bbld with fastest twists for caliber. The TSX in a 210 is about perfect for the 338Fed and i would imagine it is probably the length of a 250gr NP. Perry | |||
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| one of us |
When I bought my Hart 338 barrel 12 years ago, there was only one choice in twist rate; 1:10". Looking at their website now I see they have added another, 1:9". Looks like they're going the wrong direction for you, Kabluewy. Hart Rifle barrels | |||
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IMO, the term "wonderful sub-sonic rounds shooting 300gr MK" is an oxymoron. Substitute the word "useless", and ya got it. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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If you are interested in a fact and math backed explaination of twist as regards stability I would suggest Bryan Litz's book Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting. Chapter 10 is covers this rather well. | |||
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| One of Us |
The direction they went was for those cartridges like the 338 Lapua, which can actually use the extra twist, with the long/heavy BT bullets. At the ranges they shoot, the spin on the bullet really makes or breaks the deal. To those guys, it doesn't matter what the bullet is doing under 1,000 yds. All that counts is what it's doing beyond that, and adding another 50 yds just by proper twist, is like a freebee, and is actually important. That 9" twist rate is for an entirely different shooting concept, compared to the 338 Fed. There's hardly anything there to compare, except the bullet diameter, which means little with the other factors included. There is a lot of difference in considerng what a bullet is doing within its first 200-250 yds, compared to its last 200-250 yds. Yet, when comparing the 338 Fed to something like the 338 Lapua, that's the realm one is into. It's really no comparison. I really don't care if a 200gr .338 bullet from my Fed at 1000 yds is sub-sonic, unstable, and tumbling, but I'll bet there isn't a single 338 Lapua owner who doesn't care. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| <Mike McGuire> |
Given the 338 Federal is hardly a long range calibre AND if you subscribe to the idea that a faster twist promotes bullet expansion the fast 1 in 10 twist is probably better for the 338 Federal. As a side note, Woodleigh is now making 180 and 200 grain bullets that are designed for the 338 Federal. Should be good for busting kangaroos and pigs with a 338 Winchester | ||
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One of Us |
IMHO! The one in 10 twist is reasonable if the action(magazine) is long enough to seat a 300grain (long) bullet out far enough to keep it out of the powder room, along with an adequately DEEP throat. This would put it in the serious big game catagory.  Personally it appears to be a little demand, marketing whim type cartrige. Seems to get a little forum chit chat, however.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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| One of Us |
Everyone is being so polite as not to offend anyones feelings. The 338 Federal is not my favorite cartridge by a million miles and am not afraid to say so. The only reason to jump to 338 over 308 is to access larger bullets but this cartridge is not loaded with them nor do the manuals try to. I agree that the 1 in 10" twist is to fast for the bullets that it is currently offered in and should be at least a 1 in 12". Many 308 calibers have been loaded with the 1 in 12 with great success which would imply that the 338 Federal would be better suited to a slower twist but that is only part of the problems with this cartridge. The 308 case, for some unknown reason, is capable of matching 06 velocities with the 150 grain and lighter bullets but starts falling off the mark when stoked with 180's plus. Now this has been a well known fact for many, many years and consequently there have been success stories such as the 243, 260 & 7mm08. In as many years no self respecting reloader saw any value in loading this case up and there has been no real demand for it so you can see why I am completely taken back by Federals decision to create it and I am even more surprised at the sensational marketing flashes that try desperately to convince everyone how great this little cartridge is. I think that most of us know that it is not better by a long shot. It does not push 180 grain bullets any better than standard 308's which have better ballistic coefficients. It is the same reason the 35 Whelen falls short behind the 338-06. They both offer the same bullet weights but the smaller diameter of the 338 improves ballistics. I was reading my latest Nosler edition #6 and noticed that the 338 Federal requires a compressed load of significant margins to meet acceptable velocity levels across the bullet spectrum. Considering that this cartridge is offered in short action rifles with 22' barrels one can expect a reduction of 40-60 fps from the published figures. With the compressed load, assuming you can achieve this in your rifle, it is lagging by over 200 fps behind the 338-06 for all the bullet weights. It is clear that this case, which is so forgiving in 308, does not like being a 338. Sorry to offend any of you that think that this case has any merit but after spending a few hours studying the data I predict a short life expectancy for it. Captain Finlander | |||
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| One of Us |
The main purpose the of the federal is to shoot a .338 bullet out of a AR platform. If you want a .338 Bullet out of a bolt platform, there are better choices. | |||
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One of Us |
wow, another armchair commando that has never owned or shot the cartridge. The 338 Federal will shoot 200-210 bullets at 2650. Nosler reloading manual is crap for the 338 Federal. If you are going by that, you obviously know nothing about the cartridge. | |||
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| One of Us |
Scott, please try to not be so wishy-washy and polite with your opinions. We are big boys here, so say what you really mean.  I appreciate the captain's studied opinion, and Scott's too. This is just discussion. I don't really agree with the good Captain, but that's not important. I kinda think the 338 Fed will be around and be more popular than the 358 Winchester. Looking at the ballistics, it has more potential than most are apparantly giving credit. Sure, it's not setting any new standards, but it's not giving up any in comparison either. After all, it's in with some great company - such as the 8x57, 308 Win, 338-06, 30-06, etc. At some level it competes pretty effectively with each of those world class cartridges, as they all compete and compare with each other. I like to shoot the 308 with 12" twist and 165gr bullets. I think that is the sweet spot for that cartridge, and if I shot only that twist and only that bullet weight in that cartridge, I would be satisfied with it. Similarly, I think the 338 Fed is at its best with the 200gr bullet and I'm interpolating from my experience with the 308W that the 338F will be just as satisfying. Just as I like the 12" twist in the 308, when the norm is 10", I think probably the 338 Fed with a 12" twist rate is right. 2650 fps MV is plenty for most hunting situations in which either cartridge will be used, deer and hogs mostly. I really don't see how it could be a bad choice, presuming one doesn't try to make it do something it isn't designed to do well - like compete with the 338 Win mag. Actually, with 250gr bullets at 2300 fps is plenty of cartridge for moose or elk, within 100-150 yds. The old timers killed a bunch of game with the old 33 Winchester, and the Fed beats that. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Yeah, I did get a little wound up. My apologies to the captain. | |||
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 Opinions are what they are;time will be the yard stick. After the state of saturation is reached I guess one more also ran doesn't matter much for a while.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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| One of Us |
I figured my negative opinions regarding this cartridge would draw some flack and I could have toned it back some too. As with all cartridges bullet selection is their key to success and the Federal has a good variety. The Modern "AR" Hunting crowd is making good use of this cartridge so it is very possible that it could see extended market success. I am still waiting for the 338-06 to be truly standardized and is a cartridge that has more than paid it's dues. Captain Finlander | |||
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