It is through much friction and eruption that great mountains are born.
Some fathers and sons have punch ups,but beneath is an extremely strong bond,the relationship is not to be judged by what one sees or hears. A storm on the water is no indication of what the ocean currents are doing.

Yeah Doc, doa search on that one if you have alooooooot of time to read such stuff.

The biggest Ballistic Tip fans I know are dedicated southern whitetail deer hunters who hunt almost no big game other than deer. I've used them myself on a slew of Texas whitetails and there's no question that BTs are sure, certain, and sudden death on smallish deer.

On bigger game, I think BTs positively suck, and I will not use them ever again for any hunting other than varmints. I've taken four pronghorn in Montana with BTs out of a .270 Win., and while the kills were good, bullet performance was erratic. My all-time biggest pronghorn was one of these Montana goats, and I had to purchase a replacement cape from a Nevada taxidermist because when the 130 gr. BT hit him it blew up and ruined the cape.

And that's primarily what I've seen with BTs -- a mix of rapid kills and erratic performance. I wouldn't consider hunting mule deer, elk, or African plainsgame with them. I've found that the Partition shoots just as accurately in most rifles and is far, far more consistent and reliable in terms of performance. I see no reason to use BTs instead of, for example, Partitions for any big game hunting. In fact, I asked Chub Eastman (then of Nosler) straight-out why on earth I'd ever want to go with BTs in lieu of Partitions for big game and I didn't get back an answer.......

The Fail-Safe is the polar-opposite of the BT and is surely one of the most reliable bullets ever invented. I've used it on scores and scores of big game animals, including elk, mule deer, whitetails, black bear, grizzly, a host of African plainsgame animals from dik dik to eland, plus lion, leopard, and Cape buffalo. It doesn't matter what size the animal is or how difficult the angle of the shot, the F-S will get in, penetrate deeply, and absolutely hammer whatever is on the receiving end.

Smallish animals such as whitetails pose no problems for the F-S, either. Aim for the shoulder, press the trigger, and down they go. Like any other big game, break their framework down, and you break them down...........

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
The biggest Ballistic Tip fans I know are dedicated southern whitetail deer hunters who hunt almost no big game other than deer. I've used them myself on a slew of Texas whitetails and there's no question that BTs are sure, certain, and sudden death on smallish deer.

On bigger game, I think BTs positively suck, and I will not use them ever again for any hunting other than varmints. I've taken four pronghorn in Montana with BTs out of a .270 Win., and while the kills were good, bullet performance was erratic. My all-time biggest pronghorn was one of these Montana goats, and I had to purchase a replacement cape from a Nevada taxidermist because when the 130 gr. BT hit him it blew up and ruined the cape.

And that's primarily what I've seen with BTs -- a mix of rapid kills and erratic performance. I wouldn't consider hunting mule deer, elk, or African plainsgame with them. I've found that the Partition shoots just as accurately in most rifles and is far, far more consistent and reliable in terms of performance. I see no reason to use BTs instead of, for example, Partitions for any big game hunting. In fact, I asked Chub Eastman (then of Nosler) straight-out why on earth I'd ever want to go with BTs in lieu of Partitions for big game and I didn't get back an answer.......

The Fail-Safe is the polar-opposite of the BT and is surely one of the most reliable bullets ever invented. I've used it on scores and scores of big game animals, including elk, mule deer, whitetails, black bear, grizzly, a host of African plainsgame animals from dik dik to eland, plus lion, leopard, and Cape buffalo. It doesn't matter what size the animal is or how difficult the angle of the shot, the F-S will get in, penetrate deeply, and absolutely hammer whatever is on the receiving end.

Smallish animals such as whitetails pose no problems for the F-S, either. Aim for the shoulder, press the trigger, and down they go. Like any other big game, break their framework down, and you break them down...........

AD

Thank you Allen, for all the people that tell me I'm overgunned with FailSafes. I use them from 7mm-08 to 338 WM and they always perform beautifully.

Fredj338, per your request straight from Ohio DNR website (and just think, it took all of 2 minutes):

Longbows and crossbows may be used to take legal game. However, crossbows may not be used to hunt migratory game birds. Longbow hunters may use a hand-held mechanical release. Crossbows may be cocked with a device, but must have a working safety and a stock more than 25 inches long.

Arrows for longbow and crossbow must be tipped with a broadhead not less than 3/4 inch wide while hunting deer or turkey. The arrow tip must have a minimum of two cutting edges which may be exposed or unexposed.

It is unlawful to hunt deer or turkey with a longbow having a draw weight of less than 40 pounds, or with a crossbow having a draw weight of less than 75 pounds or more than 200 pounds.

Poisoned or explosive arrows are unlawful.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Yeah Doc, doa search on that one if you have alooooooot of time to read such stuff.

Actually, I've read it so many times I knew it was fact but I posted it word for word.

And FWIW, I do in fact take the time to familiarize myself with game laws before I hunt somewhere as it is my sole responsibility. Do you?

NO DOC, I meant the SMK thread that has been posted here before. Sorry for the confusion. I will probably never hunt in Ohio, I own a bow but will probably never bow hunt. If I give up rifle hunting it will become a dedicated handgun hunter instead.

OOOOHHHHH. OK.

I obviously thought you wanted me to do the search on exploding broadheads. LOL.

Are we to believe that some members actually have a difference of opinion on whether or not SMK are good for hunting?

quote:

I've used them myself on a slew of Texas whitetails and there's no question that BTs are sure, certain, and sudden death on smallish deer.

After reading these threads, I thought all southern deer weighed at least 300 lbs.

quote:

After reading these threads, I thought all southern deer weighed at least 300 lbs.

OldFart,

If you haven't ever hunted in TX, you probably get a real surprise in their deer size differences.

I've hunted in Southern Texas and we saw deer that weighed about 70-80 pounds "Full Grown" but, I've hunted in North TX as well and the deer there were much larger, a good buck in Northeast TX can easily get over 200 at maturity.

We have a good bit of size difference here along the Miss River Delta as well Bucks range from 130-170 in the hills to 200-250 in the Delta crop lands w/ the very rare 300 pounder being taken.

Reloader

Personaly. I have never been able to get fail safes to shoot strait ! I will admit that i have not baeen willing to spend the money on a 3rd caliber ,but I tried the 160 .284 in 3 vaery accurate rifles, and 308 180s in 2. The balistic tips however while not allways the most accurate bullet in one of my rifles, they are allways plenty accurate enough. I load the .308 180 balistic tip for my hunting partners 300 win mag bar, he has killed I think 6 Elk of various sizes with them , and this man has killed many ,\many Elk, and he says they are great Elk stoppers...tj3006

These bullets are from left to right, 7mm 160 failsafe, 7mm 140 partition, 30 200 accubond, 7mm 150 sirocco, and a 7mm 140 failsafe. All of these bullets were shot into milk jugs of water with the exception of the 140 failsafe, which was recovered from a hugh 6x6 Elk.

First, I want to talk about my perfect bullet in regards to game performance. Because I do not know the exact path that it will take through the animal, I expect it to mushroom perfectly regardless if it hits bone or soft tissue. I also want an exit hole, so it must also penetrate through what ever bone it encounters and retain 100 percent of its weight. It must also do all of this whether if was fired from a 308 to a 300 Ultra Mag, at any range from 10 feet to 500 yards. Finally, I expect it to perform perfectly every time regardless if the animal is a small Texas whitetail (Reloader, I would love to get down there and hunt them) or a big bull elk.

The 140 grain failsafe on the right lost less than 1 grain, and with the exception of complete penetration, is what the perfect bullet should be at any of the above situations.

Notice the Sirocco next to it. This is a excellent example of what I don’t want to happen. The bullet literally turned itself inside out. It barely penetrated 3 jugs of water (fired from a 7mm Rem Mag) and lost half of its weight. In fairness to the Sirocco, Jon – a fellow list member, got excellent results from the 30 180 gr. Sirocco. But unless you plan on taking only gut or neck shots, where you may want fragmentation, I don’t recommend the 7mm 150 grain Sirocco for anything.

Finally to get back on subject, the BT crowd can never say the bullet will perform on game better than the failsafe. It wasn’t designed to. The failsafe was designed for game performance as the top priority, with accuracy and price both lower priorities. Although the perfect bullet, as described above, will likely never exist, the failsafe does a pretty good job of it. The BT was designed for accuracy and lower price with game performance the bottom priority. I doubt the failsafe will ever win a 1000 yard accuracy competition, but the BT just might.

As for me personally, I shoot more BT than any other bullet. I will use them for handgun hunting, but when its time for the big game (I plan for the 300 pound deer every time), its time for the failsafes to do what they were designed to do (or another premium bullet if the accuracy isn’t there).

With my 300 Win Mag shooting 180gr Hornady bullets at 3150 fps. For deer or hogs And I use partitions for long shots.

OldFart, DITTO's

You really need to try the Triple Shocks. IMO, at least as accurate if not more so than the NBT's. 100% retention, medium price. The TBBC's are also excellent in the performance and medium in the accuracy but terrible price. If the Partitions were accurate that's all I'd ever shoot.


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

quote:

If the Partitions were accurate that's all I'd ever shoot

I just don't undersand this complaint about partitions. I don't use them in my match rifles, but every one of my hunting rifles has a partition load I have worked up. The two best loads and rifles are pretty consistant .75 MOA when I do my part. The worst combination is around 1.125 MOA.

How much more accruracy do you want in a hunting bullet for medium and big game?

As to the comment above: "Partitions suck on Deer" based on my personal experiences in using these for around 20 years, nothing could be farther from the truth. 4 out of my last 5 deer didn't move a foot after they were shoot with a partition, the last took two steps and dropped. I have recently used the 150 gr 7mm, the 180 gr 30 cal, and 140 gr 6.5mm. None of these bullets with my loads have given me one reason to complain. Other Nosler Partitions I have used in the past are 115 gr 25 calibeers, And just about every 7mm bullet.

Out of all these bullets and dozens of rifles I have had ZIP to complain about. These bullets work, and if I had any complaint they almost hammer a deer too hard.

My suggestion is that some of the guys that dislike the partitions so much need to spend some more time on load development. If I had a hunting rifle that wouldn't shoot a partition of some wieght after I worked with it I would put serious though into selling or trading off the rifle. I am not applying this to the big bore stuff, but for calibers in the .24 to .338 range this has been my experience.

Yes I can buy more expensive premium bullets, yes I can buy more accurate bullets, yes I buy load and shoot "other" bullets. But bang for your buck on North American game animals the Partition is my Gold Standard.

My friend and gunsmith Bob Manley isn't a big fan of partitions. We banter this point back and forth, but last year when he saw what my short barreled 7x57 and a 150gr bullet did both on the range and its performance on my last years deer his tone changed. I even got him to work up some 180 partition loads on his new 308 Norma. I gave him some baseline information from my 30-338 load books and he had dialed in a very accurate load in the first session at this bench.

Anyway, my $.02 worth, I have had a long and successful hunting and shooting career using Nosler Partition bullets. Doesn't mean I am not willing to try new stuff, I just worked up a 130 gr load on a 270 with the 130 BT, yet to be tested though. And I am going to try some A-Frames, but there is certainly no need to work with these bullets, it is just my inclination to test and fiddle.

They aren't around much anymore in most calibers, but did anyone remember or shoot the old Barnes Classic bullets? These were the only bullets that I would trade straight across on partitions. Barnes only makes this in a few calibers now and the ones I have are my personal stash, but I had excellent results with these also.

Edit: also look at the pic that Ol' Fart provided, look at that partition, I there anything to complain about with this bullet? Maybe not 100% weigtht retention, but I bet is close to 90%.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:

quote:

If the Partitions were accurate that's all I'd ever shoot

I just don't undersand this complaint about partitions.

Just looked in my log: 17 different loads in 30-06, 9 different loads in 300 win mag, and 2 each in 264 and 270. The Partitions, for me, averaged an inconsistent 1 1/4" to 2 1/4". For me a hunting load needs to consistently average 1". I get that with the TSX's and Accubonds.

I do agree with you on the Partition performance. Before I started reloading, I always bought Federal Premium Partitions or TBBC's and had excellent results.


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

quote:

[B]Just looked in my log: 17 different loads in 30-06, 9 different loads in 300 win mag[/

Ok, now my curiousity is up, what loads are you using in tose two rifles? I am going to assume the old 180 gr standby, what powders, how much, which primers? Something is wrong with this picture.

Nosler's can be tempermental, I will grant this they will excel with one powder and be mediocre at best with another. Another tip is max loads usually don't yeild the best accuracy, backing these of 50-100 FPS can make a big difference, on groups with partitions.

I am on the road right now and not at the homestead, which means I don't have access to my reloading notes for another couple of weeks. I have never had good luck with 300 Win Mags with any bullets, so someone else like Allen Day is much more qualified and less biased on that chambering and I would pick his brain on the 300 Win Mag.

But on a 30-06 this straight forward. I have three decent loads with partitions, again I am away from my notes right now but I have loads with 180 gr Partitions using RE-19, IMR 4350, and IMR 4831 and none of these are over 1.5 MOA.

I'll be home towards the end of the month PM me and I will share some load notes.

Thankyou OLDFART for the pics of the Failsafe results. The 180gn .30cal BT that I mentioned when I started this post looked much worse than that sirocco you show.Chop off about 70% of the petal length you have on the Sirocco and it would be about right. It also folded further back to the base than the sirocco,the only lead remaining was a little cap sitting in the base.

quote:

Originally posted by OldFart:In fairness to the Sirocco, Jon – a fellow list member, got excellent results from the 30 180 gr. Sirocco.

Actually my test results showed the Scirocco would be an excellent choice for some applications. They held together well but expanded to a really large diameter which limited penetration. I'd personally choose the AccuBond over them for non-broadside elk-up shots as (the 200, at least) penetrated more deeply.

Jon,
I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.

You abused a fine bullet by trying to make it do something it was never designed to do, what did you expect...Any magnum is strictly a premium bullet caliber, we learned that about 50 years ago...