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| One of Us |
used a 300weath launching 180gn b/tip at 3200fps to take a boar around 130yds retention about 85-90gn from memory maybe less. The pill basically disintegrated and was found under the skin on the far side shoulder. Fired 180 failsafe from 30/06 factory load at a local range(25yds) and recovered slug from metaltrap. Deformed about top 3rd of the pill on one side due to the curve of the trap but retension was almost 100% after hitting immovable metal. Ballistic tip 50% retention at most after striking soft tissue. now you know where to put your money. | ||
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| One of Us |
The choice was already made when you purchased the big 300. Big case+fast M/V=tough bullets peroid. Any other combination will surely disappoint. The failsafe is good, but I don't use 'em. Why bother as the same bullet exists in the form of the partition, and the partition costs less. Most "plastic tipped" bullets weighing under 180 grains are intended for the smaller 30s, so what you're left with is this: a big case and the ability to drive 180s and 200 grain bullets fast, power to kill tough game at any sane distance, and a great calibre with bucu bullet choices. Start with something like the partition, then move up to something more spendy if necessary. | |||
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Woodjack, Let me save you a whole lot of headache. The Fail Safe Bullets are intended for "Very Large Dangerous Game"(Says so on the Box). They are not intended for shooting animals like deer species and hogs. We tried them on many medium game animals and they performed just like a FMJ. Every game animal shot w/ the failsafe that didn't get spined ran for a long distance w/ very sparse if any blood. We lost several animals even after tracking for hours. The animals we did find had a tiny entrance hole and a tiny exit hole. The Failsafes should be a great bullet if used for the game the manufacturer suggest. I personally don't feel that game animals less than the big Bears or maybe Lions are "Large Dangerous Game Animals." If you like 100% weight retention on small animals you may should look into FMJs, they should give adequate penetration  .I bet that Boar you shot didn't go anywhere but straight down. The Biggest Boar I've taken (500# range) was taken w/ a 7 RM 150 grain NBT at 3100 fps. The shot was 50 yards right through the shields, He dropped on the spot. The bullet made it to the other off side shield and did enough internal damage to expire him on the spot. That's bullet performance if you asked me. I will admit, I never thought I would cross paths w/ an old boar that size, the big boars in that area are usually around 300# (corn fields) but, the NBT did it's job when the opportunity arose. Good Luck! Reloader | |||
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| One of Us |
ballistic tips are to soft for game. Great varmit bullets, but unless you are starting a low velocities they are going to blow up | |||
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Woodjack I have to agree with Reloader. I've shot 4 whitetails with the 180 gr Failsafe from a 300WM all were braodside. They take off so damn fast you swear you had missed them, then they run a loooong way. Chris | |||
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I shot an elk last fall with failsafes (250 grn) 340 wby dropped inits tracks. retension was about 75% | |||
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I don't hunt w/ BTs of by any name, just to unpredictable @ impact vel. over 2700fps. I've heard a lot of neg. stuff about the Failsafes & BTs from my African PH friend. He sees mor egame shot in a year than most of us will hunt in a lifetime. I'll defer to his experience. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Sounds like apples and oranges to me. Crank the speed down on the BTs as recommended by the manufacturer and you will get better performance. The Fail Safe is more bullet than I need for deer and hogs. The Accubonds and similar bullets work nice as well as the old standby partition. | |||
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I have to agree with Reloader also, with one caveat; if you're shooting at 300 Weatherby velocities the fails safe is just like the name says "fail safe" in cae you have a close in shot where most bullets can fail. A good happy medium and one I subscribe to BYW is the Nosler Partition. But you have to be nuts to shoot a ballistic tip at those velocities. They'll work,most of the time, but you have to be very picky about your shot, as in lung shots only or else you're asking for trouble. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Not true. Too general of a statement for all cases. But factually speaking your statement is absolutely incorrect. I've killed the bulk of my whitetails, mulies, fox, and coyotes with 150, 140, and 130 ballistic tips from my 270WCF, 150 and 180's from my various 300's and .06. I've never ever had a ballistic tip fail or blow up and I grew up hunting in north Alabanana, where you can kill a deer a day. I stopped counting after 150 or so rifle kills. I loaded all the btips hot too, usually a max load of IMR4831. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I'm not an expert, but have taken moose, mountain goat, Stone sheep, whitetails, mulies and black bear with a 300Wby and 180 failsafes loaded to 3150 fps. On the mountain goat I thought that the bullets could have expanded more agressively. On the rest I saw nothing but consistent, and great, bullet performance. I would have no misgivings about using that combo on whitetails or anything larger. | |||
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I dont try to save money on bullets,All my pigs drop quickly(50-350yds) when hit with a failsafe. If my dog was hungry and I didnt have his food, I would give him my steak. | |||
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I've been using FailSafes for a number of years with no problems, from my 7mm-08 to my 338 WM. As with any shot, placement is the key.  | |||
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I have used Failsafes on everything from Whitetails, Moose, Griz & Black Bear,400# Boar, a Massive Asian Buffalo,Caribou,and Elk. Most were out of my 338WM, but several out of 300WM and 270 Win. On the Bears, Moose, and Buffalo I couldn't have asked for better performance out of the 338 on the big animals. The 300WM was awsome on the Elk and Caribou with the 180 gr. Failsafe. On Deer size game the Failsafe has acted just like a FMJ in my 270, but the Ballistic Tips are too fragile for my taste. A good Interlock or Winchester Power Point Plus has served me better. I can't say about the Ballistic Tips in the larger calibers but in 25-06 and 270 we have had numerous complete failures. Twice having them blow up on the rib bones of deer and looseing the deer after seeing the blood on the rib cage. Hawkeye47 | |||
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I have used 180gr FailSafes in my 300WSM to take several elk. Can't complain about one shot kills. Plan to use them again this Nov in NM. My elk hunting partner, using a 7mm Rem Mag, has also killed several elk and plenty of whitetails. He uses the 160gr Failsafe. | |||
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I'd just like to ask: Was or was not the boar very dead, even without great weight retention of the BT? I've killed a number of whitetails with BTs out of a 7 REm Mag, both 140s and 150s, and while they always exited, so I can't speak on retention, they were some of the most spectacularly dead animals I've ever seen. The first deer I ever shot with that rifle was from about 40 FEET with 140 gr. ballistic tips(about 3100 fps). I barely had to dress it, because most of the internals POURED out when I slit it open. Double lung + heart, liquified the majority of all 3, and left an INCREDIBLE blood trail. There were places where the spray was almost 12 feet... I can't complain about that. With a good shot, they're excellent bullets. If we're not taking good shots, maybe it's another area of our hunting that we need to consider altering. Tim People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. George Orwell | |||
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Isn't the purpose to KILL the animal humanely. Don't BTs kill humanely - yes they DO! They always do! BTs are the BEST bullets on the market. They kill quickly, and they're extremely accurate - so you hit the game SQUARE - where you aim the bullet. I hear all this BS about BTs being too soft - total CRAP! | |||
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I've shot the BT's in rifles from 6mm to 338 and in my experience they are to soft for anything other than a heart/lung shot at less than 3000 fps.They will kill but not what I want to see my bullets do inside a game animal.I have had some fail on a shoulder shot.JMHO | |||
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| One of Us |
Well, the problem here is 3200 fps. It is very difficult to get a small diameter and weight bullet, anything under 338 and about 225 grains to CONSISTANTLY hold up or function as designed on impact at ranges under 150 yards when the impact velocity is still in the 2800+ range. True most of the time a BT with work or a Failsafe will actually open enough to kill the animal, eventually. The question is, if you are using a high V caliber, do you actually need the flatter trajectory? Or, would you be better off with a larger and or slower bullet? Don't get me wrong here, I shoot a 270 with 140 gr. Interlocks at 3100fps, but I do it in extremely open country where a shot under 200 is a fluke and most of the game I've shot is 300+. I'd never expect this combination to hold up on elk at 50 yards in black timber. Which is why I leave it at home and take my 35 Whelen and 250 gr. Partitions. Is it the bullets fault or are you just asking for one caliber and bullet combination to "do everything perfectly". Just to echo fredj338, my PH in Namibia had nothing nice to say about Failsafes and in point of fact makes a point to tell his clients NOT to use them. The bushveld area we hunted offers few shots over 100 yds, let alone 300. He had a handful of Failsafes recovered, after several shots and long tracking, that looked like pencil erasers. At the same time he also had nothing good to say about Sierra Game Kings. The common factor here was that all the slugs in question were fired at V's of 2900 to 3400 fps and had very high impact speeds. On the other hand my Whelen at 2500 fps with Partitions preformed perfectly at ranges under 200 yards. | |||
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| one of us |
There is a big difference between failsafe and partition, look at the construction and what they are made of, the closest to a F/S has to br the X bullet The F/S front half is copper type construction, the part is copper with a lead front core The F/S back half is copper with a double metal cup for intregrity with a lead center core for weight with a steel base cup for intregrity The Part is copper with a lead core with an open exposed lead core base. Granted the partition is a fine bullet and a definite improvement over the typical jacket bullet but no where near the design of the F/S. Again the F/S is the best choice for extreme penetration, it will expand like a Partition but will hold to gether and even shed its pedal for deeper penetration, very similar to the X Bullet. The only problem I see with the X bullet is the overall lenght of the pure copper bullets since they take up alot of case capacity, The F/S solves this by using some lead to keep the lenght down, if case is not a problem than the X will work as well as the F/S Either of these bullets are great performers but again marksmanship plays as good as a role as bullet. My firtst choice on big game has always been the F/S, I have never read about any failures, I only wish they would make them in 416's or 458 diameter. I like all of them, bullet cost plays a small roll in the cost of a hunt. NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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I've used BT on deer and moose. Killed both dead and left a large hole. There also extremely accurate what more do you want???? | |||
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| one of us |
Let me get this straight, you killed and recovered a hog with a 180 Btip. You recovered the bullet and it weighed about half. You did a very dis-similar scenario with a Failsafe (not comparing apples to apples) and deducted that the Btip just didn't work? What exactly do you demand from your hunting bullets? I see soooo many times people posting tests like this where they RECOVERED THE ANIMAL AND THE BULLET, but somehow they are not satisfied. Well, let me tell you something. I can take a 5 gallon bucket of sand, shoot my arrow into it with a 100 grain Muzzy broadhead and it will pass through to where about a third of the arrow is out the other end. I have yet to have any of my rifles launch a bullet all the way through, so should I stop rifle hunting? After all, I just proved beyond any doubt that my bow and arrows will out penetrate all of my rifle bullets! This was done at 5 yards. So, to answer you question, it seem pretty obvious, put our money on the Btip...it is obviously a success, especially with you! I know a guy that has killed more bears than most people have killed deer. His ONE setup is a 7STW with 140 Btips. His opinion: "why do I give a shit what the bullet weighs, looks like, or whether or not it blows up inside or stays together. All I care about is if I killed my animal." He ROLLED a 300+ pound sow in Minn. last fall at, Ohhh, 10 yards maybe with that set up. Bullet blew to bits all over her vitals, only fragments were recovered...KEY WORD, recovered. I think he said she made it about 3 yards and that was because she was rolling downhill. Your welcome to speak with him yourself. Dave Tatum at Wilder Elk Ranch. A guest on the Calling all Coyotes videos with Randy Anderson...Dave is a former State trapper and he ONLY uses btips. He's thinned out many a whitetail for the state. Sometimes I just don't get this whole bullet performance issue with wt. retention etc. I never even knew this stuff was a concern till I logged on at AR. Dead is dead, why cry over 50% wt retention? If it was a trophy of a lifetime deer would you still say, "damn, I should have used a Failsafe, but he sure looks good on the wall." I'll sure never use a Btip again??? Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Doc, talk about apples & oranges? There is no way you can compare bow hunting to rifle hunting or expanding bullets to broadheads. You hear this stuff all of the time, "I kilt my elk w/ a arrow, so why wouldn't my .243 kilt an elk?" Apples & oranges baby. The NBT is a good bullet when the range exceeds 200yds &/or the impact vel. is below 2800fps or so. For those who say they aren't soft, well you just haven't taken enough 1/4ing or frontal shots. That's why the pros in Africa have less than stellar things to say about them. You don't get the luxury of broadside shots everytime, infact hardly ever. That's where the better bullets come into play. That's why the NP was invented.  The Failsafe & Partition Gold are really tough bullets. I would use them for close cover/bigger animals/higher vel. rounds. But this is the good ole USA, we can all use the bullets & calibers of our choice.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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you know, the NBT argument has become a source of amusement for me. I have stellar luck with them, at every angle and every distance. the NBT, at 3200fps from my 7mmremmag, on a shoulder shot at 50yds, has NOT blown up but anilelates the game. I have run them faster than that and made shots at 7yds from a treestand. I have taken literraly 50-60 deer with the NBT in the last 5-6 years, and there has been ZERO problems putting the game in the dirt. Yes, they are destructive, but killing things by definition, is destructive!! There is only 1 degree of dead, and I like it to be quick as lightning, which the NBT delivers every time I drop the hammer. Failsafe pills are horribly disappointing on paper. I have run them through quite a few bores to see if I could find one that liked them best, hasn't happened yet. They suck for accuracy, and they suck for deer sized game. Just like a partition,..accuracy suffers at the hands of a garantee that you don't need in the first place. Polycarbonate tips are the best thing since smokeless powder. Highly accurate, and highly lethal. If I want a tough pill, I'll load the accubonds. I don't consider shedding the core or not exiting a failure, the only failure is non-recoverd game. Which I might add, has never happened to me with the NBT. This is from hunting in the woods, to hunting across the beanfields on crop damage permits. YMMV, mine is consistent. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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I finally recovered 2 BT's a couple of years ago...always had pass throughs even with double shoulder shots till then. I had to literally wait 30 minutes with crosshairs on a deer to get a straight on frontal shot so I had enough whitetail to stop....drumroll please... a 165 grain NBT from a 300WSM The bullets both entered the chest between the front legs. One was found in the hide just in front of the rear leg, the other against the broken thigh bone in the rear leg. In my experience, their on game performance, IN HUNTING CALIBER/WEIGHTS, not varmit caliber/weights, is right on par with same size gameking/corelokt/powerpoint bullets. YMMV! Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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Yes I can. I just did compare the two. I did it in the same manner the failsafe shot in metal was compared to a btip shot into flesh. Apples and Oranges...my analogy was meant to be on par with the OTHER comparison to show YOUR point which is the same as MY point...THEY ARE NOT COMPARABLE. [QUOTE] "The NBT is a good bullet when the range exceeds 200yds &/or the impact vel. is below 2800fps or so. For those who say they aren't soft, well you just haven't taken enough 1/4ing or frontal shots." [QUOTE] I never said whether or not they were or weren't soft. I have taken at least 7-8 quartering to shots at less than 50 yards with a 270/140btips without a problem. I have taken twice that many quartering away shots with the same setup or a 7mag with 140 btips without a problem. In the north woods of Alabama, to South Carolina, to rolling hills in north MO. Punched right through every time. [QUOTE] "You don't get the luxury of broadside shots everytime, infact hardly ever." [QUOTE] Yes. I do. In fact almost every shot I've ever taken with a bow was broadside. Probably 60-75% with a muzzleloader or rifle were broadside. Quartering shots have been rare for me relatively. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Thanks for the comment, Doc. Funny how all of the stories about how Ballistic Tips just won't work are based on post-mortems of animals that mostly fell in their tracks, and recommendations about how good all of those "premium" bullets perform are based on whacking inanimate objects. I've said it before, will say it again, and it has never been truer: More game is lost every year to "under-expanding" bullets than to "over-expanding" bullets. By itself, penetration is largely meaningless; it is trauma to the tissue of vital organs that kills an animal, not a small hole in the off-side skin. | |||
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I agree with Stonecreek. NBTs are very good at killing game - quickly and humanely. | |||
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Yes, I think I'm going to challange myself for this fall and next year. I think I'll set aside all of my loads with TSX, Accub., Partitions, and Swift bullets. I'm going to only load btips at vicious velocities, take them afield, shoot shoulders like I always did, and plaster all my kill pics on AR. Same with my brother. Now mind you, I'll still use appropriate bullet wts for the game at hand in the caliber I choose, and I promise to be honest as I have no reason to state otherwise and certainly I am the first to admit when he's wrong or made a mistake. Swallowing pride is not a big deal. I got drawn for Colorado for mulie. I'll take one of my .270's and load up some 150btips. I'll also take either my 7mag or my 300 RUM and load up some 150 and 180 Btips respectfully. I won't know til July if I draw for WY antelope but I'll take a 270 with 130 btips for that. Kentucky: probably 270 and 130btips for that as well. Missouri: 30.06/165btips, Kansas: same. We'll see what happens I guess. After all, Dan Lilja uses them with great success. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Doc, you may have the luxury of the broadside shot, my statement was based on hunting in Africa where you may see only a portion of an animal for a few seconds & have to shoot @ some very bad angles or not at all. I don't trust the NBT to get there, you do, great, hope your success continues. I suspect Lija uses them as much for their accuracy as anything else. It's not a pissing contest just a discussion.  You are right btw about comparing bullets shot into any hard material like steel or wood & then trying to compare that to any perf. in game. I've seen .223 punch through steel plate that a .30-06 would not. No intelligent shooter would think this translates to perf. in game. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Well, I do not consider a broadside shot a luxury. It is just my experience. I've never had the pleasure of hunting in Africa but I can assure you that you'd be one of the first ones I'd ask as to what bullets I should load up if I go. I do not trust the Btip to get there as you put it because I was not referring to African game. I have zero experience there. No pissing on my part! Hope I do not sound that way. I emphasize that my experience is limited to North American game, and mostly deer. As a bowhunter, I wait for broadsides or quartering away, or I just won't shoot. I too, have read plenty of past tests done where fast 22 cal bullets have zipped through steel. What gets my goat is when someone equates that to how the same bullet will perform on living tissue. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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| One of Us |
It is really entertaining how some of you guys go off your rocker. No it is not wise to compare bullets caught in trap to performance on game. but any intelligent person would read my original post. It does not criticise or praise either the BT or the FS. It is just sharing information, How much difference there is in strength of construction. Where you spend your money is your choice, no one is telling you what to do. Kings live in castles Pigs live in styes Youth in anticipation Youth is wise. | |||
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In my limited experience with FSs (2 impala, 1 wildebeest) the 270 gr FSs factory out of my 22in .375 H&H performed flawlessly and expanded well even on the impala at ranges from 100 yd to 225 yds - my 2c worth. Charlie | |||
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Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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C'mon, nobody really went off their rocker. That only happens with people in the Political Forum. Your post was fine, I just thought shooting flesh and metal were equivicol to my bullets and broadheads through sand. But I'll bet if I were to ask a lay person, say, someone who knows nothing of our topic, would read your original post and take from it: Btip is not as good as FS, so be wise and buy the FS. Isn't that what you were REALLY trying to say and that it is simply your opinion based on your observation? Honestly? Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I've never had a bullet "failure" with a Partition  .BH1 There are no flies on 6.5s! | |||
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| One of Us |
Life is open to interpretation,i can imply what I like ,you can buy what you like.You want asoft bullet thats up to you,others prefer Failsafes they work fine on both medium and large game for me and many other people,and there is much less concern around their failure to penetrate when required on a large animal with difficult angled shot. Maybe someone should invent exploding broadheads so they can match the BT. | |||
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Now, now boys, it IS starting to sound like a pissing contest. Pretty soon someone is going to reserect the old SMK firestorm.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I think that would be illegal. Pretty sure I read that. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I'm jus givin ol WJ a hard time. And I wouldn't dream of urinating on anyone. SMK firestorm? Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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