Just acquired a 77 Mark II in said caliber. Slugged bore = .311. Sierra said .311 or .308 would work. Any experience? Ideas?

http://www.grafs.com/product/260449

I'm still working on it, but at this time I've been having fun with the above bullets.

I'm convinced that 150 gr bullets are the trick for hunting, with a possible exception of the Barnes TSX 123 gr bullet.

As others have said, the problem with 150 gr bullets (Speer & Sierra .311) is lack of expansion, at the velocity the 7.62x39 can attain.

Sooo - with the Hornady bullets from Graf's, I have been pulling the plastic tip with pliers, which leaves a nice hollow point, plus it shortens the overall length of the cartridge, so it fits in the magazine fine.

I've been trying different powder, but so far H4198 seems to be better than the others I've tried. My load is compressed. http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
Scroll down to "agree" - before the site will allow you to proceed to the data.

I haven't taken any game with the combo yet, nor have I cronographed the load, but I'm thinking it's pretty close to 30-30 energy at the muzzel, and of course will exceed it at 100 yds.

I'm shooting these through a CZ 527, which also has a .311 barrel.

Anyway, that's my .02 cents.

KB

What are you intending to shoot with them? I really like the 123 grain V-max that Grafs sells for varmint / target shooting.

Are you sure your bore is .311? I was told that ruger used 308 barrels in their mini 30. and would assume they did the same for the M77. My 7.62x39 is on a small ring mauser and has a 308 bore and I'm using hornady 150 interlocks with H-4895 compressed load and am getting just under an inch @100 yards. It works great on deer sized game.

My favorite projectile was the 125g Nosler B-tip in .308dia

This bullet shot very very well in all my .310" guns, features a very high BC for weight and expands reliably even at long range on game. I used this bullet in my ar15 to harvest a doe at 278yds a couple years back.

In fact my 7.62x39 handloads were exclusively .308" because of the much much better selection. The accuracy difference is much much less than you might think

see the below link

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2274479

quote:

Are you sure your bore is .311? I was told that ruger used 308 barrels in their mini 30.

only the very very very first run of Mini30's had .308" bores. Anything made since the early 90's will have the "proper" bore specs.

quote:

Originally posted by Krochus:
My favorite projectile was the 125g Nosler B-tip in .308dia

This bullet shot very very well in all my .310" guns, features a very high BC for weight and expands reliably even at long range on game. I used this bullet in my ar15 to harvest a doe at 278yds a couple years back.

for the .308 125 gr Nosler BT
BC is .366, SD is .188

for the .311 150 gr Hornady
BC is about .360, SD is .220


Although IMO this definately ain't a 300 yd deer cartridge, I use that range to highlight the computation results -- Both sighted in at 100 yds, at 300 yds it computes:

Nosler 125 gr BT/muzzel vel 2300 fps = 23.1" drop, 1680 fps, 783 ft lbs

Hornady .311 150 gr/muzzel vel 2150 fps = 27.1" drop, 1559 fps, 809 ft lbs

That's why I want to use a 150 gr bullet. This cartridge needs all the help it can find, and I'm thinking the extra SD of the 150gr may make a difference at all ranges.

KB

2300 would be a rather conervative 125g loading.


Using aa1680 or n-120 2450 to 2475 fps was the norm for my cz527. Whereas your 2150 fps with 150's ime is about the best you can expect.


by adding 150fps to your figure on the 125BT you get

Nosler 125 gr BT/muzzel vel 2450 fps = 19.9" drop, 1796 fps, 895 ft lbs

Another thing to take note of is bullet construction. The 125 Nosler has a stellar reputation as the 30-30 handgun bullet of choice because it can be relied on to expand at impact velocities as low as 1600fps.

At this point the tipped 150 from graf's is an unknown. BUT I do know one thing from firsthand experience IF THIS BULLET is genuinely constructed for 303/7.7/7.65 it will be very very lacking in terminal performance from a x39 at any distance beyond handgun hunting range.

If you want SD take a look at either the 174grn RN or a 170grn 30-30 FP

Both of which the right charge of h335 will get you 1950fps, and with that massive chunk of exposed lead in the nose will expand well inside 100.

Trust me on this I've been there and done all this before.

I have a CZ 527 in 7.62x39. I have killed half a dozen plus whitetails with it, a black-back jackle and a couple of coyotes. Of special note are the three kudu cows I shot with it. That is my experience on game, from that I've come to some conclutions:

First: Forget the 150gr. bullets made for .311 rifles that have higher muzzle velocities. I drilled a kudu cow through the heart (literally) at 100yds. and the 150gr Sierra just penciled through. Long tracking job. At 25yds another kudu cow took one through the heart and was DRT, bullet expanded.

Hornady 123gr bullets which are basicly "made" for this caliber work extremely well out to 200yds. on whitetail deer. These bullets penatrated well and expanded as expected. At around 100yds the bullets penatrated the animals completely on broadside shots and the internal damage was as good as my 270 with three of the deer DRT with one round. Even at 200yds the penatration was complete with rib-cage shots not hitting significant bones. Animals ran a bit at longer range but all were down within 100yds. (I hunt almost exclucively in open ag fields so the longer runs might be a function of the open country.) The one kudu cow shot with this bullet went 50yds or so after a 100yd lung shot. Bullet did not penatrate fully but the lung tissue was "frappe".

Accutate 1680 gives the highest velocity and best accuracy in my rifle. 100fps to 200fps more than any other powder tried and consistant 100yd groups of 1.5 inches or less with Hornady 123gr. SP's.

Primers and cases matter. This is a small case and variations in case capasity seem to produce variations in accuracy. (Approx. same size as a 44 mag. in capasity.) Primer choice is a big deal. Some advocate using large pistol primers, works well accuracy wise but the primers will pierce almost every time, very creepy... I've had good luck with Fed 210's but if you have a "less powderful" large rifle primer it might produce better accuracy in your rifle.

Sighting the rifle in at 200yds makes life less interesting. A bit high at 100 and less but still "minute of deer" and overcomes the drop this little guy experiences from 100 to 200, a distance lots of deer show up at where I hunt.

quote:

Primers and cases matter. This is a small case and variations in case capasity seem to produce variations in accuracy. (Approx. same size as a 44 mag. in capasity.) Primer choice is a big deal. Some advocate using large pistol primers, works well accuracy wise but the primers will pierce almost every time, very creepy... I've had good luck with Fed 210's but if you have a "less powderful" large rifle primer it might produce better accuracy in your rifle.

If you can get it I had the best results with small primed R-P cases. This brass not only was more accurate but also held pressure and therefore lasted much longer than even large primed Lapua

But yes you will want to sort

I use the 25gr bullet in my SKS 7.62X39

Moorepower, Mostly paper, but would like to have a back up for deer & smaller.

Mad_Jack02, Yes, 3.11. Slugged bore.

Everyone else, Thanks for the advice and links. Looks like I can spend the summer working on the Ruger :-)

i tried both 308 and 311 in a mini 30, colt ar, cz527 and ak and what i found was that the 311 bullet was better grouping than the 308's all the bullets were hornady and the powder charges etc. were all the same. interesting at least

I am breaking in a Remington 799 in 7.62x39. I am not having much luck getting what I want out of the 150 grain .312 projectiles. Not all that accurate. I have a pile of the Wolf Military Classic hollow point. It shoots well, about an inch an a quarter at 100 for three shots.

I have not killed anything with this rifle. I used to hunt with a mini-30. Had good results with deer using the winchester 125 factory load. Had a bad experience with the light weight ballistic tips. The wolf military classic round is supposed to give really good results through fragmentation during projectile yaw. Plan to use it on groundhogs this summer and deer in the fall.

quote:

Originally posted by 390ish:
I have a pile of the Wolf Military Classic hollow point. It shoots well, about an inch an a quarter at 100 for three shots.

The wolf military classic round is supposed to give really good results through fragmentation during projectile yaw. Plan to use it on groundhogs this summer and deer in the fall.

"The wolf military classic round is supposed to give really good results through fragmentation during projectile yaw."

From some of the stuff I've read, the above quote is a very relevant factor in discussion of hunting (especially deer) with the 7.62x39.

The cartridge/bullet is designed to obtain part of its effectivness from yaw and fragmentation in its military application, thus the selection of such a light for caliber bullet with low SD.

That's why I want to experiment with the 150 gr bullet - perhaps to make the cartridge something it's really not, which is to avoid yaw and fragmentation.

Several times I've read that the 7.62x39 is close to the equivilent of a 30-30. Maybe in ft lbs of energy, but such a comparison ignores the differences a .311 123 gr bullets performs compared to a .308 30-30 bullet 150 gr or 170 gr. The lighter 123 gr bullet is much more prone to yaw, tumble and frag, whereas the 30-30 bullets mushroom and penetrate, as hunting bullets should.

I have just about reached the conclusion that the 7.62x39 is not really suited for deer hunting, although I have shot deer with it. Those I've shot were dead alright, but they were head shots. I'm just not comfortable with the performance of the bullet enough to chance anything but head shots.

IMO, with this puny cartridge, if you can't get enough poop out of it to make a 150 gr bullet do what it's supposed to do, then a rifle in this cartridge probably should stay home, when a guy goes deer hunting.

So, all this talk of the results using the 123 gr bullet don't do it for me. It's too low sectional density, designed to yaw, tumble, and fragment.

Frankly, I've about reached the conclusion that the best use for these bolt action rifles in 7.62x39 is to rebarrel the action to 6.5 Grendel, and gain significant velocity, BC and sectional density using bullets in the 120-130 gr weight range.

http://www.hornady.com/store/6...rendel-123-gr-A-MAX/

KB

I have several 7.62s and just can't bring myself to reload for them because I bought some premium ammo cheaper than I can ever reload it for...Lapua...

This is from a Ruger Lite Rifle...first three rounds after I bought it which is why the group isn't centered...






A Ruger #1 K1-A stainless shoots just as well with the same ammo...

A friend and his brother-in-law did a lot of control hunting in NY at a several thousand acre orchard for about 7 years. They killed close to 50 deer with Mini30s and Beranl 123 grain HPs...most were one shot drops...

Bob

As I said, the deer I shot with the 7.62x39 were one-shot drops too, but that doesn't make it a legit deer rifle, unless you qualify it by saying it's good if you make head shots.

I've never known anyone who shot a mini 30 to just shoot one time at anything.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I have several 7.62s and just can't bring myself to reload for them because I bought some premium ammo cheaper than I can ever reload it for...Lapua...
Bob

The Lapua ammo I see is FMJ - good for targets, and small game, but not for deer, unless you are planning all head shots.

KB

the ruger is a .308 bore ...and if you can get 150gr FP designed for the 3030, you are in high cotton, if they shoot decent groups ...

123gr barnes will open doen to 1600fps, per barnes

...no, these guys are not "blasters"..they just like the Mini30 because it is small, light and weatherproof.

Another friend in Texas always hunted with a Remington 700 in .270 Winchester. He bought one of the Ruger 77MKIIs with the 22" barrel in 7.62x39. After his third one shot drop on the spot he sold the .270 figuring why put up with the recoil...

And you are correct...the Lapua is just for target shooting. I have other SP hunting ammo for deer...but being a .35 shooter I will probably never use the 7.62 on big game...

Bob

cheap ammo is just what got me into shooting the round. i think i've still got a few thousand rounds bought when it was about $60/case of 1440 rds

Yea, I like shooting mine too. It's accurate, low recoil, and economical. There's lots of good ammo, and lots of cheap ammo, and it's fun to handload. I used some SR4759 powder, and the Lapua FMJ 123 gr bullets to produce some reduced loads, thinking maybe of shooting some rabbits, and targets. Seems to work good, on the first try.

Although I own one, I really think rifles in this cartridge have a high potential of being a certifiable goober rifle. If you don't know what I mean, read my signature below, and the thread about using the 223 on deer. Just too many guys talk about 278 yard one-shot kills, and my brother-in-law this and that. Same scenerio as with the 223, the smaller the cartridge the bigger miricle cartridge it is. Goober syndrome kicking in.

KB

quote:

Although I own one, I really think rifles in this cartridge have a high potential of being a certifiable goober rifle. If you don't know what I mean, read my signature below, and the thread about using the 223 on deer. Just too many guys talk about 278 yard one-shot kills, and my brother-in-law this and that. Same scenerio as with the 223, the smaller the cartridge the bigger miricle cartridge it is. Goober syndrome kicking in.

Hey just cause you're not a well practiced or good enough shot to kill deer with a 30 cal bullet without braining them at 5 paces doesn't mean everyone is.

here's a hint deer don't have even the slightest comprehension of ballistics. The fact that a 125grn bullet is insufficient in the SD department in your book goes right over their heads. I hope they never have a chance to read your ramblings and figure out that they're NOT supposed to die from being shot through the heart lungs with a 125grn bullet. Because right now I guess it's just the placebo effect causing them to expire.

A magnumitus suffering Elmer Fudd calling everyone Else a Goober, how droll troll.

BTW I think I saw you at the range the other day, you were the dude zeroing his centerpoint scope equipped remington 8mm Magnum at 50yds. Did ya ever get that thing to stay on paper?

Greetings goober. How easy can it be to flush um out?

KB

quote:

Greetings goober. How easy can it be to flush um out?

Helwooo Helmer! been hunting any waskly wabbits lately?

Kabbom land the home of the 7mm stw brush gun. Blowing deer to pieces like ground squirells since 1922

Oh, I see you're from Arkansas. The world champion slingshot shooter guy lives there - right? Now I understand where you're coming from. Got tired of deer hunting with slingshots, eh?

Yea, I agree the 7.62x39 pea shooter is a great step up for deer compared to rocks from a sling shot, and as a bonus it requires less practice and hand-eye coordination, an important factor to consider for some folks from your part of the country, so I hear.

Works pretty good for me too. I've practically retired my slingshot since acquiring a CZ in 7.62x39.

KB

I too had a Ruger M-77 in 7.62X39mm and used Winchester 150 gr. Silver Tips (for .30-30's)for Deer Hunting. My load was 23.5 gr. of IMR-4198. All the Deer I shot were < 100 yards and ALL one shot kills. I use 25.0 gr of the same powder with 123 gr. .310" Hornady and received great accuracy. Wish I still had that Ruger!

quote:

Originally posted by Krochus:
2300 would be a rather conervative 125g loading.

Using aa1680 or n-120 2450 to 2475 fps was the norm for my cz527. Whereas your 2150 fps with 150's ime is about the best you can expect. By adding 150fps to your figure on the 125BT you get

Nosler 125 gr BT/muzzel vel 2450 fps = 19.9" drop, 1796 fps, 895 ft lbs

Another thing to take note of is bullet construction. The 125 Nosler has a stellar reputation as the 30-30 handgun bullet of choice because it can be relied on to expand at impact velocities as low as 1600fps.

At this point the tipped 150 from graf's is an unknown. BUT I do know one thing from firsthand experience IF THIS BULLET is genuinely constructed for 303/7.7/7.65 it will be very very lacking in terminal performance from a x39 at any distance beyond handgun hunting range.

If you want SD take a look at either the 174grn RN or a 170grn 30-30 FP

Both of which the right charge of h335 will get you 1950fps, and with that massive chunk of exposed lead in the nose will expand well inside 100.

Trust me on this I've been there and done all this before.

Krochus apparantly knows what he's talking about. I probably shouldn't have called him a goober, and I appologize for that. He doesn't fit the profile.

Keeping my shots under 100 yds was the plan when I got this rifle, just like I used to do with my Rem 788 in 30-30, which gave good results. Lately, I've been hunting where longer shots are common, and I carry another rifle that's more useful beyond 100 yds.

KB

Plastic points are designed to increase expansion by acting as a wedge. Removing the point is going to reduce expansion on two fronts
a) by removing the wedge effect and b) by reducing the BC hence ensuring the projectile arrives at a slower velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
Plastic points are designed to increase expansion by acting as a wedge. Removing the point is going to reduce expansion on two fronts
a) by removing the wedge effect and b) by reducing the BC hence ensuring the projectile arrives at a slower velocity.

But they fit inside the magazine without the tips. Must be a trade-off. The wege effect sounds good in theory, also I'm thinking the reduction in BC is slight, if noticable at all. It's gotta beat a round nose bullet. I'm far more concerned with SD than BC, since this is a 100 yd deer cartridge at best, and the SD helps avoid, if not eliminates, the tumbling, yawing, and fragmenting. Certainly the bullet with the tip out is subject to damage, which is why I figure the plastic tip is there - to protect the point, and of course look good for the consumer.

It was either pull the tips, or find another bullet. I thought about taking a bullet like the Speer 150 gr .311 bullet and cutting the lead tip off, and drilling a hollow point into it, but that's a lot of trouble, and also difficult to maintain equal weight. On that Graf/Hornady bullet, I thought about filing the tips back to the lead, making it somewhat flat point, but I figured that wouldn't achieve anything they won't already do, and they work well at the range with just the tips removed.

Pulling the tips, solved four problems.
1. Enabled the use of .311 150 gr bullet that has a chance of expansion. 100 yds or less, since I don't plan on shooting at deer further than that with this cartridge.
2. Enabled it to seat deep, but not too deep, and still fit into the magazine
3. Gave me the hollow point I wanted to start expansion
4. Made it easy, and consistant bullet weight is not a problem. Pulling the tip is much easier than cutting lead, and drilling.

Hey - I give up - ya wanta buy a nice slightly used 7.62x39 pea shooter? I'm tired of strugling to find the right bullet for it for deer hunting. Seems to me it clearly trying to make it something it is not designed for, and there are many-many other better choices - namely practically anything.

KB

quote:

Hey - I give up - ya wanta buy a nice slightly used 7.62x39 pea shooter? I'm tired of strugling to find the right bullet for it for deer hunting. Seems to me it clearly trying to make it something it is not designed for, and there are many-many other better choices - namely practically anything.

Everyone here has given you great advice on which bullet to use but you refuse to listen because you have some fixation on SD. Which really doesn't make sense because I mention two projectiles that'll work inside out to 150yds with superior SD's and expansion characteristics to the bullets your hung up on. Specifically since you go so far as to mention only using the rifle inside 100yds.



This is no different than loading for a non levergun 30-30, you can't just grab just any box of bullets constructed for cartridges with 800 more FPS and expect good results. Why is this concept so difficult for you to grasp? Using a bullet of proper construction @ a set velocity for the game is much more important consideration than kabliewies arbitrary minimum SD requirement.

This is where instead of posing meaningful reply you resort to name calling as an attempt to mask your lack of experience on yet another subject.

Sorry about calling you goober, Ghomer.

Looks like the name calling is your specialty.

Are these the high SD projectiles you mentioned?

quote:

If you want SD take a look at either the 174grn RN or a 170grn 30-30 FP

I'm reluctant to try .308 bullets in a .311 rifle, but I suppose I could use them in my 308 Winchester if they aren't accurate in the .311 barrel. The 174 gr bullet I think you are talking about is Hornady and it's .312. Speer makes a 180 gr RN in .311, which is probably soft.

My minimum SD isn't arbitrary. Even if it's traveling slower, a golf ball hits a lot harder than a ping pong ball.

So are you saying the 174gr round nose .312 or the Speer 180 .311 bullets are more likely to expand at 1600 - 1950 fps than the 150 gr Graf/Hornady .311 bullets at 1800 - 2150 fps?

KB

quote:

So are you saying the 174gr round nose .312 or the Speer 180 .311 bullets are more likely to expand at 1600 - 1950 fps than the 150 gr Graf/Hornady .311 bullets at 1800 - 2150 fps?

you know the 30/30 bullet will which is where I have experiance, others who use the 174g hornady report similar results.

I would reccomend trying a few .308" bullets you may be supised at how well they can shoot from a .310"ish 7.62x39mm. Plus if the accuracy prooves acceptable you open up a new horizon of bullet choices. Just remember to use a .308" expander ball.

Ok, bear with me a bit. I've been studying this delema. Here's something that may be interesting.

Start with this: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...uctNumber=1601408254

Speer makes a very similar bullet, which may be better. One thing for sure - it's completely satisfactory in sectional density, and has good BC for a round nose bullet. We're talking 200 yds max anyway, and BC really starts to play into it beyond the speed and yardage this cartridge can give anyway.

So here's the calculated ballistics:

Starting at 1950 fps - I hope that's not too optimistic. Sighted in at 125 yds.

Range/ 0/ 25/ 50/ 75/ 100/ 150/ 200
Veloc/ 1950/ 1893/ 1837/ 1783/ 1729/ 1626/ 1529
Energy/1520/ 1432/ 1349/ 1270/ 1195/ 1057/ 934
Traj / -1.5/ 0.6/ 1.5/ 1.7/ 1.2/ -2.0/ -8.5

Now that's not bad in my estimation. Really it's unbelievable - basically no compensation for drop out to 150 yds.

Energy is adequate too - for deer and hogs.

With a range finder, and knowing the exact drop at specific yardage, this 180 gr bullet could be stretched to 200 yds.

I'm impressed, unless I'm missing something. Let me know what ya'll think about this.

Assuming the above specs are realistic, which I think they are, this comes close to duplicating the old 303 Savage cartridge.

The above numbers are from the Hornady ballistics calculator. I found another good calculator and tried it again and got similar results although it computed a different BC for the bullet itself. I also tried the 150 gr and the numbers are slightly better - but numbers are only that. As said the 150 gr may not mushroom, where the large frontal of soft lead on the 180 gr shown may do better.

One other thing, according to the CZ web site the 527 carbine in 7.62x39 has a 9" twist rate. That's encouraging - regarding the potential use of the 180 gr bullets - they should stabilize well even at the slower velocity.

Here's some light reading:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm

KB

There are a lot of guys around here that us the 123sp on deer with great success. They also use it within a reasonable distance, under 100 yards, most of the shots 50 yards or less. I would not hesitate to use the 150 grain Hornady .311 soft point. You Will get adequate expansion as long as you limit your distance to keep the bullet in its designed impact velocities. I am not saying it can't be used at 200, but if i was thinking I needed that range, I would get a 308. Th 123 grain soft point was designed as a HUNTING bullet for the 7.62x39.

Moorepower,
There is little to debate with everything you say. It all makes sense to me. I wonder too why I want to deal with the 7.62x39 when I've got a perfectly good 308.

I suppose it's the challange, and the rifle is such a neat little carbine, and so nice to shoot.

When I first started using mine, I used mostly 123 gr factory loads, soft nose, Remington and S&B. Shot two deer, under 100 yds, no problems. Then I let my confidence build, and shot a medium size hog at about 135 yards with Remington ammo. The hit was a little low. I'm estimating 2 or 3 inches based on subsequent tests over the bench to see where it was hitting at that range. It was hitting dead-on at 80 - 100 yds. In other words, the bullet missed that magic spot right behind the ear, and hit close to 3" lower than that. With a 308, that pig would have never got up, even if hit 3" low - DRT anyway.

But this time, the pig dropped, and squeeled, and kicked, so I thought he was done, and looked for another target. When I looked back for the down pig, he was up and running very fast towards the woods, and it got away. We looked a long time for the pig, but no luck.

"If" is a big word in such cases. If I had sighted in for 125 yards, probably the oucome would have been different. Of course, if I had been using my 308, I'm reasonably sure the outcome would have been different.

So, the lesson was to be cautious about range, bullet drop - shot placment, etc. The 308 is far more forgiving and effective in most all respects. Like others, I still like shooting my little CZ 7.62x39, but it's not really an easy rifle/cartridge combo to get excellent or high-percentage results from, without being really careful about the shots taken.

I'm all for increasing the odds if I can, especially if it's just a matter of bullet selection, and/or learning to use a range finder - something I've been meaning to do anyway. Seems that sighting in at 125 yds zero is a good idea, no matter which bullet is used - 125, 150 or 180 gr.

KB

A couple things to consider about your hog experience.

1. sometimes even when everything goes perfect in terms of the shot game animals just don't die like they're supposed to. If you haven't lost an animal you haven't hunted enough yet.

2. Remington 7.62x39 ammo really isn't a great benchmark by which to judge the cartridge. Like all domestically metric ammo it's laughably underloaded. For more see the below link
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5111739

FYI the good 125g aa1680 loads are in the speer no#12 But IME they're bolt action only propositions

The Remington 180 gr .311 bullets arrived today. After work, I loaded two each of them with H335, progressing .5 grs each increase. I drove out of town a little ways and shot them at sticks growing out of a frozen lake. Started low - primers were backing out. 1/2 gr more and primers stayed where they are supposed to. Never did reach max. So, the loads were conservative. I may go up another grain, at 1/2 grain at a time.

They seemed like good shooting. I shot the last two of them at a distance of about 150 yds, and they seemed to get there quick enough.

The main thing is when loaded and seated to the base of the shoulder, they still fit inside the magazine properly and feed well.

The lead tip is very soft - like pure lead, so it should expand readily. So, perhaps by this weekend I can shoot for accuracy, and pass a few over the cronograph.

Everything I know about shooting and hunting, cumulatively, tells me that this thing will be deadly on hogs inside 100 yds, and perhaps further. I'm relatively sure it will shoot through even big hogs, and make a pretty big hole in the passage. I'm anxious to try it. I may get a chance early next fall. I can always take it deer hunting around here, but because of the numerous and large bears, generally I don't consider a cartridge like this prudent locally. One never knows when an argument may start over who that deer really belongs to, me or the bear.

Sunday, I did check the speed of the 150 gr bullets and got 2194 & 2195 fps. Not too bad, and I think I could safely increase the charge maybe one-tenth of a gr and get 2200 fps.

KB