The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 318 Westley Richards and its modern counterpart the 338-06Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
Gents: I was perusing my copy of Big Game and Big Game Rifles by Taylor this morning and read with some interest his section devoted to the 318WR. I believe the 318WR and 333Jeffery to be roughly on par performance-wise. Later on old Elmer and co developed the 333 OKH which became the 338-06. Taylor was high in his praise for the round yet today it gets bashed by some while used apparently to great effect by others. Please leave the 35 Whelen and the 9.3 x 62 out of this conversation. Why then is the 338-06 not spoken of as highly today by more riflemen than the 318WR was then (especially with modern propellants and bullets)? | ||
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| One of Us |
.338WM? Pardon my cynicism. - Lars/Finland A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot | |||
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sorry dude. unresponsive. | |||
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| One of Us |
I mean the .338-06 has always been overshadowed by the .338 Win Mag. I for sure cannot understand why the .338-06 didn't make a factory cartridge (until A-Square made it such; but I'm not quite sure that counts). As far as I can see, the .338-06 is about the best cartridge ever devised: well balanced, powerful enough yet without undue recoil. With light(ish) bullets it's flat shooting enough, and with heavier modern bullets it delivers quite a punch. (OK, no better than the 8mms at the end of the day but the bullet selection for the .338 is better.) Today, there is the 8,5x63 Reb both in rimmed and rimless versions and this cartridge does enjoy some popularity in Europe. Enough for many manufacturers to take up the chambering - maybe we'll see it become truly popular some day! Personally, I doubt if the shorter .338 Fed can make it. - Lars/Finland A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot | |||
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I'm inclined to agree. Paul B. | |||
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I suspect that when compared to the 9.3x62, 35 Whelen, 333 Jeffery, 338 Win Mag, 318 WR, and even the 303 British (215 gr) and the 30'06 (220 gr) relatively few people have used the 338'06 under similar circumstances. | |||
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one of us |
338/06 with a 200 gr bullet @ 2800 fps & very managable recoil. Whats not to like?  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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| One of Us |
some folks with much more knowledge than I have spoken of the 338 bullet and the 30 06 case in terms of bore/volume ratio and surmised that this combo makes practically the most efficient use of the cartridge case's ability. Can anyone comment on this? | |||
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| One of Us |
Hmmphh! They say that, in a smaller calibre, about the 280 Remington vs the 270 Winchester! | |||
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| One of Us |
The 318WR is an excellent killer with 250gn RN Bullets. Seems to punch well above it's weight on Buffalo (Water buff). I would imagine the 338/06 would do the same but I have found that the 338WM just doesn't seem to have the same effect as the 318WR - perception more than anything. | |||
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One of Us |
The .338-06 is every bit as good as it sounds and looks. That said it has to buck the .30-06 and that's a tall order. I believe it's like this: The .30-06 (while it was around since 1906), didn't really become highly popular until the NRA sold bookoo thousands of Springfields and Enfields in that caliber. There after everyone stocked ammo for it and everyone bought sporting arms for it and the spiral went through the roof. People soon learned the immense power and value of the '06 and it was then clear it could handle anything that needed to be handled in the big game department. In all seriousness.....if you really need something more than a .30-06, you should be looking all the way to the .375 H&H The OKH etc rounds were lost to the (still) popular .30-06 and deservedly so. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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It's a manufactures conspiracy!!  They all know once a hunter buys a 338-06, shoots it, then see's how it drops moose or elk, they would sell lots less rifle's. | |||
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Idaknow, but if I were to guess I'd bet it goes something like this. Cattle ranching is thought of as romantic thanks to John Wayne movies, but the reality of it is money smells like bullshit and cows are leather covered bags of trouble that happen to taste great. If you think otherwise just drive your new pick-up out in the pasture and see how long the mirrors remain attached. The romance of hunting Africa and the reputation of 318WR will be forever linked, except for those using the 338-06, and hamburger will never get the respect a T bone steak does even tho both come from the same critter. I realize it doesn't make much sense, but neither does the overshadowing of the 338-06. | |||
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One of Us |
Horses for courses ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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| One of Us |
Well put. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have a .30-06 and a .318 and I've used both of them extensively on a wide range of animals. For some reason the .318 hits like freight train! Everything I've shot with it went down as if lightning-struck, even with shoulder shots. To compare the .318 with the .30-06 is folly, I think. The .318 (with 250-grain bullets) is a bit more gun and behaves more like the 9,3x62 than the .30-06, even when the latter is loaded with 220-grain bullets. I'm not even going to attempt to come up with some sort of explanation, but there's definitely something to be said for a 250-grain bullet with excellent SD travelling at 2 200 fps or so. It works! I don't have any experience with the 338-06, but there's no reason why it shouldn't perform perfectly satisfactorily as well. I'ts always looked like a very fine cartridge to me. Pity they are so thinly spread here in Africa. | |||
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| <Mike McGuire> |
Perhaps it is the bullet you use in the 318...Woodleig or whatever. | ||
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My last comment about the 318 WR. Nice cartridge...shame about the firm that it is name after...who were not at all "customer friendly" when I used them for a repair to an old WR. Mucked the repair up. Didn't do it properly. Still charged me for it and then claimed that "it's an old gun anyway...what do you expect"! My advice if you are looking for a bespoke (custom) hunting rifle? Or a repair to an older WR? AVOID! | |||
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For the .338-06 to be popular it needs 3 things: 1) Rebranded as something like the '.340 Mid-Magnum' the term magnum is key. 2) A catchy advert that includes all the key words- "harder, faster, further, lighter, shorter, massive knock down, higher energy and minimal recoil" 3) A gun rag to proclaim that is THE best re-invented cartridge ever and make all other mid-bores obsolete. | |||
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| One of Us |
If someone were to lengthen the case a couple thousandths and move the shoulder forward to fit in a couple grains more powder they could claim their completely new 333 Beltless Magnum improves on the 338'06 the way the 370 Sako improves on the 9.3x62! Why, with a plastic-tipped 160 grain lead-free bullet the new and improved 333 Beltless Magnum shoots flatter than the old-fashioned 338 Winchester Magnum's 250 grain bullet, but with less recoil!  | |||
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| One of Us |
Then there is the .338RCM (.338-06 +P). Of course we all know that it is doomed to oblivion any day now, eh?  Right.  | |||
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One of Us |
That would be the 340 Howell; a 2.6" case length, 0.34" neck length, .4558" shoulder diameter and a 25º shoulder angel pretty well maximizes the performace with this family case in a 3.4" magazine. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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one of us |
The 338-06 will never get the same repect as a WR or Jeffery because it has never been marketed properly. It doesn't have the same storied history, either. If it had been proprietary to a famous maker as long as the other two or had O'Connor decided it was the nuts and berries instead of the 270, it would have much the same panache. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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One of Us |
I won't be able to cover all this subject briefly, so will do a half-fast job. When the .318 WR came on the scene, there were not a heck of a lot of rifles available to Afrikan farmers/hunters which used medium-bore, heavy-for-bore diameter slugs. Especially, there were not a ton of them which gave the deep penetration in a straight line which the 318WR did, from a relatively small bolt action which would hold 5 rounds down, and didn't have a "losable" cmagazine. All that made it a primo weapon for the resident of British Africa who needed something which would work well on Buffalo, Lion, and other nasties...as well as plains game for the pot. And the great bulk of writers about the "adventures" of opening up Afrika, seem to have been Brits. At least that is true of those which we who read mainly English language publications had writing to them (us). The .318 was even more impressive in that day when you think of the kinds of rifles and cartridges which preceeded it by a dozen years or so. So, it had the great advantage of being perfect for its job, easily available from home (UK), and without a heck of a lot of really direct, viable, competition. Not only does the .338-06 not come on the scene in anything like the same fortuitous circumstances, but because of the Average American's aversion to recoil, and almost morbid fascination with velocity, you don't usually see the .338-06 factory (or otherwise) loaded with blunt 250 grain bullets. Believe it or don't, blunt bullets DO add whack. That is, given two rounds which may have the same approximate kinetic energy in the same bore size, the one with the blunter nose will almost always show more "whack" (whatever that really is) than the pointier ones. Many researchers in the area have bluntly said too, that with cup n'core bullets (which are still the most common kind), it is mainly momentum which determines penetration, not velocity. And heavier bullets have more momentum in a given bore size unless one adds a hell of a lot more velocity. And what average American Joe-blow hunter needs either cartridge for his White-tail and Mulie hunting? None. So the .338-06, because it isn't needed here, and because it isn't commonly chambered by large manufacturers, isn't broadly available in factory ammo, and isn't commonly loaded with the heavy bullets for use where lots of penetation might be really useful, just isn't a tool to fill most American hunters' top priority needs. Myself, I would still pick the .318 WR because I have used it a lot and liked it. It is a shorter, smaller capacity case than the .338-06 (.318 case length = 2.390", .338-06 A-Square case length = 2.494") which mkes it easier to work with in Mauser actions, and it still has the "whack" of heavy blunt nosed bullets at good velocity. But that is just my personal preference. I suspect the market differences and the era differences are what make for the different reputations in modern America. | |||
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| One of Us |
True!. How many bullets were available for the sportsman 100 years ago, when it made its reputation?. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| One of Us |
That's got to be the best answer I've seen this year! | |||
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| One of Us |
Does the round then, on its own merits, have value; not compared to, or contrasted with, but in and of itself? | |||
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one of us |
I went through this several years ago. The rifle was to have an "old world" flare and the 318WR was a natural choice. I'm not much on wildcats but after researching avalibilty and cost of components I went with the .338-06 over the 318 Westly Richards. The nostalgia of the 318WR wins out over the .338-06 but the simplicity of the .338-06 made it a smarter choice for me. In the field I think there wouldn't be enough difference to spit at. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Because we have more choices today. | |||
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Spot on! The 338/06 has been rebadged as the 338RCM and its a light package that is gathering respect. Cheers... Con | |||
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Thanks Alf!. Your Speer bullets could be for 8x50R Steyr?. That caliber did use a .329 caliber bullet @ 244 grain in a low pressure job. That Steyr caliber is also disignated as 500/320 express for Lee Speed guns. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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I guess I should put on my Nomex togs bfore I even bother to post this  But, anyway, one of the reasons I would pick the .318, is its case size pretty much limits velocities with 250 grain bullets to about 2,350 fps. That just happens to be about ideal for deep penetration with cup n'core bullets according to a number of folks who actually tested such things. It is true that a person can duplicate that velocity cap in loading the .338/'06 by using discretion when tipping the powder keg, but how many will? So, I'll venture the hazardous opinion that the .338/'06 will at least duplicate the performance of the .318, and be a lot easier to find components for, IF the user is careful to keep the velocity DOWN to that level OR use premium bullets which don't blow apart on impact velocities over about 2,250 or 2,300 fps. However, if I was going to use lighter than 250 grain bullets and wasn't looking for deepest possible penetration, I'd just pick something smaller in bore size than either one. That way I'd have less recoil, maybe the same or more sectional density, and probably find ammo on the local store shelves, possibly even regardless of where I happened to be. YMMV...the above is talking about "for me". May the hot stove league resume....  | |||
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| One of Us |
Alf, I was not referring to the 8x56 rimless Sporting cartridge, but to the 8x56R Hungarian (and sometimes Austrian) military cartridges. If you check Cartridges of the World (COW, one handy source) you will find it listed as the 8 m/m Hungarian M-89 in the "military cartridges of the world" section (pages 273 and 287 of the 6th Edition). It is one of the two cartridges for which the Steyr Mannlicher designed straight-pull Model 95 military rifles were commonly chambered...as well as the ones made in Hungary. Bullet diameter shown in COW is .329", but .330" bullets were/are also commonly used...and the .329s were imported until the last few months into this country for that specific use. The standard bullet weight for the military cartridge was nominally 205 grains, just as your Hornady-marked ones are, and they were also spitzer-pointed & cannelured, just as your Hornady bullets. I have a considerable number of the Prvi bullets on hand, and they have been available in both solid and soft nose. Mine are the soft-nose as I bought them to use for other than military purposes. BTW, for anyone who cares to know, "Prvi" in Serbo-Coatian use means "First". My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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