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One of Us |
Funny how a 150 grn bullet @ 3k from a .270 is said to be a great elk combination but a 150 grn bullet @ 3k from a 30-06 is said to be to light I'm glad elk, deer and African PG don't follow these threads otherwise my barn would be empty ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I don't got a barn,,, just a plain old freezer. | |||
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Sectional Density? memtb You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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I've heard that argument...... it's funny to say the least ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Ted, why is that funny? I ask because I've always associated SD with penetration, and BC with the efficiency of bullet flight. WRT SD, I do assume that the bullets are of more or less equal construction. What should I take into consideration that I now do not? | |||
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There is way to much talk about SD, BC, ect Under 400 all this means what? Hunters should practice and practice a lot then go hunt. At 400 yards or less a 150 grn Accubond at 3k MV from a .308 bore is not any "less" deadly then a 150 grn Accubond at 3k MV from a .277 bore I know this from dead animals ....... not bullet terminology or internet forum chat. Back in 2014 I did a bullet test of sorts Eleven different South Africa species of game fell to a 150 grn Accubond at just under 2900 fps MV in 8 days They didn't get the memo that a 150 from an ought-six is the wrong choice. I never consider SD for penetration..... I consider bullet construction I never consider BC for drag...... I shoot paper for drop charts out to 400 ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Exactly! Plus impact velocity. | |||
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Hey Ted, just to explain Sectional Density in “exaggerated layman’s terms”, I have a flyswatter 3 1/2” wide and a piece of 2”x4” board (also 3 1/2” wide). If I contact your head, at a terminal velocity of 30 mph (44 fps in shooters terminology)....which will make the biggest impression on you?  memtbYou should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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If hit in the forehead, I think the flyswatter will leave a pretty good grid impression, and the 2x4 will leave a pretty large lump. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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In "laymans" terms......That's a stupid comparison ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Rather than attempt with the definition of Density, I tried to “dumb it down” for those lacking in the knowledge of basic physics. I guess I wasn’t successful!  memtbYou should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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I'm sure it wasn't very hard to pull off..... You might want to re-think "terminal velocity" and it's use in your "laymans terms" ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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And to think I killed my last bull at 496 yards with a 7 Mag and a 168 gr Berger. Guess I should have gotten closer, but I spotted him at about 4 miles away, so technically, I did. Probably would have gotten closer but the ribbon cliff I was perched on prevented that option. Having thought about it more, there's no way he should have died, even though he made it about 3 foot after 2 rounds hit about 2.5-3" from each other. Oh by the way, that 3 foot was straight down. Yup, Too far away, too small a bullet and too small a caliber. You guys crack me up. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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I am just trying to figure out how Elk evolved to be "Bullet Proof". Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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That is by far the most ignorant comparison I've ever seen. I love how these threads turn into the us against them argument. On one hand are real hunters and shooters who have practiced their shooting and have killed animals against those arm chair critics who shoot holes in the accounts of the "been there done that crowd". Keep trying boys and the rest of us will keep hunting and shooting and tell you all how it works out... | |||
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Snellstrom, the “key” word was “exaggerated”! A higher “sectional density” somewhat relates to momentum, inertia, etc. The mass (sectional density)is the property of (in this case a bullet), an object to maintain its direction of travel until overcome by resistance. The greater the mass of a moving object, the greater the objects ability to maintain its direction of travel against this resistance. (in this case....penetration). Probably a good reason “not” to attempt hunting dangerous game with “plastic” (very low sectional density) bullets. Another exaggeration in an attempt to make a point!  memtbYou should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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Range finder becomes a constant variable. I was inquiring about peoples experiences of bullet weight or bullet speed vs. the wind. | |||
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Because their heart is close to the shoulder bone and they have more stamina than a moose. | |||
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They are far from bullet proof ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Actually sectional density is only tangentially related to penetration. Sectional density is the relationship between weight and diameter. At best sectional density is a proxy for penetration when bullet shape, construction, and velocity are held constant and that is a lot of constants. I guarantee you a 150 gr 30 cal barnes tsx will have better penetration then a 170 grn round nose cup and core that has a higher section density when both impact at 2000 fps Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike is completely correct, IMHO. memtb is trying to equate SD to mass, which is a totally false assumption. Mass takes into account true density. In his overly silly example, if the 2x4 was made of Balsa and the flyswatter of steel, it would show the true effect of mass, which includes density. This mass is why, again in my opinion, the monometal bullets have different penetration properties than others. Since the monometal bullets are longer for the same SD, I believe that is why they create more straight line penetration. If two 264 diameter bullets of the same SD (weight and diameter) are fired at the same velocity, I believe the monometal version will penetrate farther straight line. All of this and I still don't use monometal bullets. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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larrys, perhaps I should have said bullets of equal construction. Bullets of like construction, with same bore diameter, at velocities corresponding to the weight differences, hitting the same animal in the same location....the heavier bullet will likely penetrate farther. And, likely will maintain it’s direction of travel better than the lighter bullet! These are assumptions....very little is guaranteed in the real world! You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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People need to realize that with today's monometals such as TTSX and GMX, sectional density becomes an extinct debate. Pushing a 180 grain bullet in the. 300-.338 range of 2800 fps from a 30-06 or 3200 fps from a 340, pass through. | |||
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Anybody have an estimate of the velocity of the 338-06 and a 185 TTSX hotload? 3000? | |||
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270 Weatherby 150g Partition 3300 fps. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Barnes says you can reach 3000 FPS. However, I think a Hornady 225 grain at 2700 FPS MV would be a far more impressive game getter at 400 yards. | |||
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Perhaps sectional density in the way we’ve looked at it in the past is measured or perceived somewhat differently with the monos...but “YOU” will never convince me that a heavier bullet in a given caliber, will not penetrate deeper/farther/and likely straighter than a lighter bullet in same caliber! You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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memtb, Your opinion is If the two bullets below are fired at the same velocity, the bullet on the left will penetrate further and straighter because it weighs 180 grains as opposed to 165 grains like the one on the right, is that correct. The bullets are to scale in the pic.  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Doesn't traditional SD variables involve the density of lead? Can copper be calculated different? | |||
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Mike, IMO. There are several variables involved. SD prior to impact....only gives an indication of potential penetration. After impact on target,if both bullets hit the same resistance, if expansion diameter is the same, and if weight loss after impact is the same....then IMHO, then penetration will/should be the same. Obviously....the sectional density changes with the bullet expansion after impact. In the picture shown...I would expect the spitzer/spire point to penetrate farther if.....neither expands! Now we’re talking “ballistic coefficient”....only in flesh and bone rather than air! memtbYou should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel | |||
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Having seen a 5x5 bull killed with one shot at 500 yards, using a 150 grain Nosler out of a .270, I feel anything bigger than that should work just fine! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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A 150g Partition at 3000 fps out of my late 60s vintage Rem 700 BDL in 270 has been working ever since I bought it new. I bought a used 270 Weatherby Magnum Mark V, cause I gave the BDL to my son... Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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What I see on the internet is a lot of folks like the bragging rights of killing with small calibers including myself at one time perhaps.. I shot a number of elk successfully at 350 to maybe 400 yards and maybe one or two beyond that with the 270 and 30-06, but over that span of time I noticed I shot a high percentage of them with two even three shots..I thought to myself hey I can shoot a bigger gun as well as the 270 or 06 so why not and that ended me up with my favorite elk rifle the standard .338 Win with 210, 225 and 250 Nosler and other brands. Today I've settled on partitions or Accubonds 225s mostly. In timber I like the 250 partition or 275 gr. Speers I have on hand. Ive never had an elk make 25 yards todate..two of which were shot pretty damn shallow.. I have more confidence with my .338 these days, I hate long tracking jobs, getting too old for that..My lighter guns are for deer,and antelope. This post in not inclusive of the predatory elk tags we are gifted with from time to time for a cow meat hunt in a friends field or off his haystack...and that's the best eating in the world. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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