Ive been looking into getting a new rifle (just going to get a 2nd hand rem700 action and rebarrel and restock it) I was thinking of getting a 280AI,or just a standard 280. So i decided id have a look through richard lees second edition of modern reloading, which i hear is every powder manufacturers manual put into one.

and for most bullet weights it shows the 284 win keeping up with the 280 rem.

basically its saying shorter and fatter is better.

*It doesnt state barrel lengths, primer or cases*

284win - 54gr of H4350 pushing a 140grain bullet itll do 2957FPS - thats max.

280rem -it lists 53.5gr of H4350 as a max with 2918fps with a 140gr bullet

half a grain and 39fps difference, go the 284! it may not be as popular but its getting more popular with me, plus you could put it in a short action.


on the other hand there is no substitute for powder capacity!

I haven't heard that question for many years .I guess the word takes a while to get down to NZ ! The case capacity of the 284 and 280 are the same . The only advantage is that with the heaviest bullets in the 284 they have to be set back into the case, reducing capacity.

I would think the 284 with a 140 has to do more than 2957. My 7mm08 gets 2840 with 140's in a 20 " barrel. I have bounced around a bunch of ideas for one of my 7mm08s and the 284 was one that I considered along with the 358 win.
Good Luck with the project.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
I haven't heard that question for many years .I guess the word takes a while to get down to NZ ! The case capacity of the 284 and 280 are the same . The only advantage is that with the heaviest bullets in the 284 they have to be set back into the case, reducing capacity.

nah word was probably here ages ago im just new to the game.

isnt the 284s case capacity 3.97cc and the 280s 4.39cc, atleast thats what the book says.

do you think a 308 sized action and magazine would do? or would i come across feeding problems with the fatter case, and with it being longer would it be worthwhile to lenghten the mag box?

thery are both good !
The .284 is a little cooler to me cause not every body has one.
I would guess that the biggest reason your book shows higher velocity with the .284 is cause it has a higher SAMMI preasure rating.
Of course the .284 is for a short action , I think the remington short action s long enough for most bullets.
I like my 7X57 well enough i don't know when my 280 AI will see the light of day again...tj3006

No difference in real terms between them.

Since i've started reloading for the 284 win, i've been amazed at how low the data is for it in most reloading manuals, in some cases i'm using 5 grains more powder than reccomended as maximum by these manuals.

If I was you I would seriously consider the 284 win, it truely is an amazing cartridge that is inherently very accurate.

quote:

isnt the 284s case capacity 3.97cc and the 280s 4.39cc, atleast thats what the book says.

No, both cases are almost identical in capacity.
If your magazine is long enough in the 284w then you can seat your bullets out and further increase case capacity.

I just rechambered my 7mm-08, spent about 5 minutes modifying the magazine and it works a dream. I recomend an internal magazine length of around 3 inches as this allows me to seat the long 160,162 and 168 bullets so that their base is level with the base of the case neck.

Both cartridges will be excellent for all game in NZ but I just think the 284 winchester has a couple of slight advantages over the 280 remington.

I'd still rather use a 7-08 or 7x57 in a .284 bore. You can run over 2900 with 140's in 7x57 and near 2800 with 160's. If I need more than that I want a .338.

I went through the same inquiry several years ago, comparing the 280 to the 284. I had a 284 built.
The 284 has the advantage of being a better case design, and works in a short action, which I prefer. 140 grain bullets are all I ever needed. And, it is more than accurate enough for any hunting too.
I love the 284 case. Reloader 15 is THE powder for the 284. With it, I can get 3 shots into a 1/2" group at 100 yards. So, I quit chasing better accuracy at that point.
The 280 is a good round, and is based on the 30-06 case which is longer than the 284 case. I compared the ballistics of the two till I got dizzy, so I just went for the 284 because it is unique.

You won't be sorry with a 284, guaranteed.

Don

My Two penney Opera sounds like this.

" There has never been a better designed, versitile cartridge for North American game with the possible exception of large bear than the .280, . Now the large bear caviate would even more so hold true for the .284. The .280 just came too late (1957) and fell between the 30-06 and its sibling the .270."

The .284 is a compromise cartridge designed to give Near .280 performance in short actions ( Mods.88, 100 and 99 ). It was intended to promote hype as something new and wonderful to promote gun sales. A bullet out of a .284 barrel will do nothing more than one out of a .280 barrel and the 1/2" shorter action really means little in achieving lighter rifles.

For a field cartridge the .284 brings little or nothing new to the table. What it did do was give me a case to build my wildcat 6.5 X .284 from a 6.5 Arasaka in 1966. Resently I learned that someone else beat me to it. I was not its Daddy. roger

If you want a short action go for the 284. If not hard to beat the 280. It will handle the heavy bullets better than the short action 284. It does give you the option of a heavier bullet than the 270 but doesn't offer much over the 06.

While I will be taking my fully blown out and improved 280 to Namibia this week the 280AI will not really give you much more than 25-30FPS at equal pressure. The 280 was loaded to 60,000 the 270 to 65000. Load the 280 65,000 and be done with it.

What kills the 284 Winchester case, IMO, is short actions. Generally speaking the bullets have to be seated so deep, in order to use the magazine, so as to reduce the case capacity thus making the 284 INFERIOR to the 270 and 280.

The reason most loading data for the 284 is "low", look at the firearms, the cartridge was designed to be used with, as was mentioned earlier. Roger also makes a great point about rifle weight. All the "HYPE" is garbage. Build a 284, on an action that will allow the bullets to be seated "out", and it will run with the 280,etc. Ignore these facts, and the 284 becomes an also ran!!

Jerry

The two are aboutr identical in case capacity. The short, fat cartridge configuration may indeed provide more uniform ignition, and hence, better accuracy. However, the .284 has a relatively short neck, so it is not as well suited to the use of long heavy bullets (160 & 175-grainers) as is the .280. The .280 is certainly accurate enough!

IF you are content with 140 and 150-grain bullets, get the .284!

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:

Build a 284, on an action that will allow the bullets to be seated "out", and it will run with the 280,etc. Ignore these facts, and the 284 becomes an also ran!!

Jerry

Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

'nuff said!

Right on the money!

10 ring!

quote:

What kills the 284 Winchester case, IMO, is short actions.

Mine uses a short action and i'm getting a genuine 3000 fps with 162 hornady SST's behind 59 grains of H4831SC. I also have some 160 woodleigh PP loaded with simular charges of RE-19 and RE-22 but havn't put them through my chronograph yet.

My internal magazine length is just over 3 inches so it does allow me to seat those bullets out fairly well.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:

Build a 284, on an action that will allow the bullets to be seated "out", and it will run with the 280,etc. Ignore these facts, and the 284 becomes an also ran!!

Jerry

Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

'nuff said!

Right on the money!

10 ring!

Thats exactly what I did to my old p/f Winchester 30-06... Made her into a 284 Win... 175grn Grand Slams @ 2850fps. 160's @ 2950fps.. the long action lets you seat the bullets out to length needed as not to impede case capacity..

Now I'm sorry I flogged off the ole-gal...

Yes they are almost the same case capacity,about one grain more water for the 280. I would go with the 7mm08 works great with hornady 162spbt and H-4350. Short action like a remington model 7 makes agreat carry gun with a 20" barrel. you do not give up as much as you think. Mild recoil makes shot placement easy that is more important then foot pounds of energy. Doc Highwall.

Forgot to mention that my 284 is on a long action, so bullet seating is not an issue with my rifle.
My cmt before about liking short actions was directed to the thread starter for his consideration, not that mine is a SA rifle.
And yes, seating is critical. Should have mentioned that before. My accuracy, in part, comes from seating 140 grain bullets .010 off the lands. The long magazine in my rifle will accept the rounds with bullets seated long.
Also, I was getting so-so accuracy with 4350 powder, until I switched to RL-15, and accuracy got real good.

Don

the ultimate package, IMHO, would be on a 98 Mauser action for the added length over a Remmie short action. Even the long 175gr bullets can be seated out to not intrude into case past the neck.

Rich
DRSS

PaulfromNZ,

ideal candidate for .284win is M70sa, they have 3.08"box.
If your going to do lots of steep terrain work in NZ,A rig like this wrapped in Mcmillan EdgeGrahite makes sense.
As Bartche said,aint no magic in the .284case.
I would take either .284win or .280rem, as long as the rifle balance,weight&configuration suited me.

Having been a .280 fan for 27 years (just bought another) we that do not reload have enough problems finding .280 ammo (I order all of mine online), so unless you just like to fly inverted (as myself) the .284 isn't going to give you superior results over the .280. The .280 will take any animal in North America, accurately and at long ranges if needed. Not that I would advocate hunting Brown Bear with one, but our forefathers had a lot less when they first traveled the north country and AK. Stay in the 160 grain bullet range if you want consistant results on larger game. Just my 2 cents worth, LDK

I really like my .280. A .284 would be a fine choice as well, but I would build it in a Mauser action or any other action designed for 06 based case. There is no advantage to using a SA & deep seating the bullets. In a std. action, you can actually gain a bit more usable powder cap. by loading the bullets out farther.

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a Brno Mauser, which has been set up as a 338-06, I am not happy with the 338, so I thought I would turn it into a 25/284, which ought to be a great match. I am however, getting cold feet on the project, as knowledgeable people have been making points, about the short neck. And another says the case is somewhat tempermental in this bore diameter!! Any comments, pro or con??

Jerry

I don't know what to say Jerry, not happy w/ the 338-06? I would sell it to a true fan.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
I really like my .280. A .284 would be a fine choice as well, but I would build it in a Mauser action or any other action designed for 06 based case. There is no advantage to using a SA & deep seating the bullets. In a std. action, you can actually gain a bit more usable powder cap. by loading the bullets out farther.

roger

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Not to hijack the thread, but I have a Brno Mauser, which has been set up as a 338-06, I am not happy with the 338, so I thought I would turn it into a 25/284, which ought to be a great match. I am however, getting cold feet on the project, as knowledgeable people have been making points, about the short neck. And another says the case is somewhat tempermental in this bore diameter!! Any comments, pro or con??

Jerry

Jerry, since you have a long enough action go with the long necked 25-06.There is no magic in the .284 case. roger

Yeah Fred: My original goal, was to build all the "popular" chamberings on the "06" case. This worked well until I ran into the 338-06. Unfortunately, I already had a 35 Whelen, built on a model 700 LA, which really outperforms the 338-06 I own. I know guys will talk about BC etc, but my Whelen shoots faster, and groups better than the my 338. I think it is the "shorter" BRNO action, which requires me to seat the bullets to deeply, to get over 2600fps with the 250's.

Roger, I was just thinking of building something different, but I believe, I will go with the 25-06, or the 257 Roberts AI.

Jerry

Not enough difference for discussion IMO...

I like the .284 in a Lever action and the .280 in a bolt gun.

I don't like rebated rims such as the .284 has, it can cause feeding problems.

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
I love the 284 case. Reloader 15 is THE powder for the 284. With it, I can get 3 shots into a 1/2" group at 100 yards. So, I quit chasing better accuracy at that point.
Don

Don, would you mind sharing your loads with Reloader 15? I have tried H4350, H4831sc and W760 so far, and accuracy is not what I want.

quote:

Originally posted by sambubba:

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
I love the 284 case. Reloader 15 is THE powder for the 284. With it, I can get 3 shots into a 1/2" group at 100 yards. So, I quit chasing better accuracy at that point.
Don

Don, would you mind sharing your loads with Reloader 15? I have tried H4350, H4831sc and W760 so far, and accuracy is not what I want.

The most accurate load I worked up was with 100 grain bullets and RL-15, with Fed 210M primers.
My cases are outside neck turned too. I have bushing dies and seat with a Neil Jones straight line seater. I use a 20x scope for load developing in this rifle.
56.5 grains of RL-15 gave a 1/4" c-t-c group for three shots at 100 yards. 55.5 grains gave a 3/8" group. Nosler's manual shows max loads for the 120 grain bullet at 48.5 grains, with starting charges at 44.5 grains. They show no loads for the 100 grain bullet, so I used the 120 grain bullet data.
I don't have data on heavier bullets, but guys who use it with heavier bullets report good accuracy.
For the 140 grain bullet, the Nosler manual has a range of 44.0 grains min to 48.0 grains max, and they show it as the most accurate powder tested for that bullet weight. 44.0 grains shot best in the Nosler test rifle.
For the 150 grain bullet, the load goes from 42.0 min to 46.0 max, but it was not the most accurate powder tested for that weight bullet.
For the 160 grain bullet, powder charges go from 40.5 grains min to 44.5 grains with the 44.5 grain load the most accurate using RL-15. RL-15 was the most accurate powder tested with the 160 grain bullet.
With a 175 grain bullet, charges range from 39.5 grains of RL-15 to 43.5 gr. It was also the most accurate powder tested for the 175. The 39.5 grain load was most accurate of the RL-15 charges tested. That's a good testimony for the RL-15 used in a 284.

Good luck with your 284. I think that RL-15 powder will deliver much better accuracy than you're getting now. I know it produced a great accuracy improvement in mine; far better than the 4350 I was using.

As always, start with the lowest charge and work up. The 46.5 grain load with the 100 grain bullet was hot in my rifle, even though the manual shows max for the 120 bullet at 48.5 grains. Your rifle may also be different from the Nosler test rifle, as mine was.

Don

Thanks a lot for the info Don. I really appreciate it.

One more thing, my rifle is not a sporter, but a custom built bench/long range rifle that weighs about 13 pounds without scope. The barrel is 25" straight with no taper. That's why it shoots so well.

Don