I have shot a ton of game up to the size of elk and kudu with the 7x57 and 160 partitions. I will never be without one, actually I probably will never be without three. There is a paper difference only between the 7x 57, 7-08, .280, .30-06, and probably throw in the 7Mag as well. I can't see a difference in the reaction by game animals till I step up to the .338 bore. Then I can tell a difference.

quote:

I have shot a ton of game up to the size of elk and kudu with the 7x57 and 160 partitions. I will never be without one, actually I probably will never be without three. There is a paper difference only between the 7x 57, 7-08, .280, .30-06, and probably throw in the 7Mag as well. I can't see a difference in the reaction by game animals till I step up to the .338 bore. Then I can tell a difference.

Yeah Agreed, though I recon the 7mm mag will out range any of the cartridges you have listed.

You can add the 270Win to the list too.

Alf,
I know for a fact that the 6PPC and its equivlent in the 22 has won every record for the last number of years over the 6x45 and the other 22 calibers like the .222 that previously set all the records.

How do your mathamaticians explain that, recoil is certainly not part of that equation. I have been told by the best of benchrestdom that a short fat case is absolutly more accurate than the long slim cases like the .222 and 6x45..For one thing they apparantly hold the powder in a more efficient way and enhance cooler ignition.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
A long throated 7x57 will duplicate with ease any max .280 load, but you could also go with a long throated .280 and better a 7 mag with factory ammo..

I lean towards the long throated 7x57s loaded with H414, but for no particular reason other than I have used that caliber for years..The .280 is a good round and would be an excellent choice..

I don't have much experience with the .280 as I have been mostly a avid 7x57, .308, .270 and 30-06 fan most of my life. Maybe I need to correct that situation and I have just the action for it, a nice clean G33/40 and a Walthar Lothar barrel..maybe its time for a .280

I have been told the .280 is not as inherently accurate as the .270, 06 and .308..Anyone want to comment on this?

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i154/kalispell_01/138group001.jpg

Ray, not sure of your definition of accurate. This is a group I shot @ 100yards with some 140gr BT's and N560 powder, works for me. This is from my Browning A-Bolt II in 280Rem.

M

/

That certain cartridges tend to be more accurate is a fact. Whether it is case design, currently available powders and projectiles, brass quality, really no one cares. Any competitive sport is result driven, winners will use the equipment that will win. If you think that certain powders also don't tend to be more accurate on the whole in a specific caliber, then I say you need to quit analyzing so much and start shooting more. Any long term shooter of a certain caliber will have a special powder that just works well in the majority of rifles of that caliber, regardless of make, model, and barrel length. H414 in the 7x57 is one of these. Almost everyone who shoots that caliber a lot will agree with me on that statement. I still equate these mysteries a lot to building a competitive racing engine. You can have the same builder build a pair of cylinder heads for an identical motor, runner lengths and volume identical, you can't tell the difference mathematically, but one may run a tenth and a half quicker. You use the one that works, and don't know or care why. Some things you can't find the explanation for why, there are just too many variables. You can drive yourself nuts trying to figure it out, so you use what works. I cannot understand how anyone who is experienced in the shooting world can possibly think there are not cartridges that are inherently accurate. I think it has to do with case volumes/ bore sizes/ available powders and projectiles, but why almost doesn't matter. We also know there are some cartridges are accurate, but tend to be very finicky. All this reminds me of when I was working up a combination for a new engine in a car, was switching from a bracket motor to a Comp Elim type class with a 280 inl engine. There are certain math formulas that will have you put the car on a scale and figure corner weights, etc and for example told me I needed coil over springs that were 130 pound springs. I made a few runs, the car wasn't acting right, 60-foot times were a little slow. A fellow racer, who had no idea how the car scaled, or what kind of rear springs I had on it was watching me run it, came up I asked him what he thought and he asked me what springs were on the back. I told him 130 pounds is what it should need, and he immediately said he could tell by how it left, they were too stiff, and he had a set of 100 pound coilover springs in his garage. We switched them and the car run two tenths faster in an eight mile. I suppose I should have gone back to the 130 pound springs, as this is what the books said would work, but I'd rather win and not know why they work.

Accuracy aside, case design is not completely without its merits. P.O. Ackley experimented quite a lot with case design and became famous, amongst other things, for designing (fire-form) cases with minimal body taper and 40 degree shoulders. He found that it improved case life, and as a side benefit it reduced the back-thrust on the bolt. The Ackley Improved cases never really became popular in hunting rifles as the various designs remained essentially wildcats.

The 308 Win, with its 20 degree shoulder, is very popular in Palma competitions - it also features a short powder column. The 6.5-284, with its 35 degree shoulder is today probably the most popular in the 1,000 meter benchrest competitions. Both being lower in recoil than the 300 Magnums.

Some cases are more prone than others to form donuts where the shoulder and neck meets - 2 cases in point are the 243 Win and the 270 Win. Both feature long sloping necks, particularly the 243 Win. Combined with this their sharp angled shoulders exacerbate the situation to induce easier brass flow. The 243 Win has a 20.0 degree shoulder and the 270 Win has a 17.5 degree shoulder. Case life is important for competition shooters, and little wonder that we don't see these cartridges competing in the various types of competition shooting.

Benchrest cartridges like the 6 mm PPC and the 6 mm BRNorma feature short and fat cases with short shoulders at 30 degrees. Whilst these 2 cartridges are mostly used out to 300 yards, Kyle Brown set a new 1000 yard world record for ten shots with a 4.2" group in 2003 and this was with the standard 6mm BR case.

Benchrest shooters today, rightly or wrongly, believe that:

1. Shorter cases with fat powder columns appear to offer a more consistent powder 'burn' than long thin ones.

2. A steep shoulder angle of 30 to 40 degrees appears to work best.

3. A longish case-neck is desirable - not just to hold the bullet firmly in alignment, but also to keep the 'turbulence-point' within the case-neck. The turbulence point being the point where the shoulder-angles would intersect if extended. "Accurate" cartridges, like the 6mmPPC, 6mmBRNorma, 30BR, 6x47 Lapua, 6.5-284, exhibit this characteristic and that comes with the inter-play of a steeper shoulder angle.

4. You need good quality brass that is concentric in thickness through-out, like Lapua, RWS, Ruag or Norma. Cases get graded by weight and visual inspection for perfection, and afterwards they get fine-tuned in a complete case preparation make-over procedure.

5. Bullets should not protrude too deep into the powder column, preferably flush where the neck meets the shoulder and that is why a slightly longer neck helps in this regard. Needless to say, only precision made bullets are being used.

The 30BR is even more efficient than the 6BR. It can drive 120 gr bullets faster than other cartridges, such as the 6.5-08, which burn 30% more powder and is lately becoming very popular in score-shooting. "One of the best things about the 30BR is its "no-brainer" tuning, so you can go to matches pre-loaded....Just find the load you're most comfortable with and go with it. Don't look back, and don't pay any attention to all the "experts" who try to tell you that the load has to be "tuned" for different conditions, like the 6PPC. The 30BR is a simple, practical, workhorse chambering compared to anything I've ever shot before, and I NEVER change the load." -- Joe Entrekin, 2003 IBS Score Shooter of the Year -

Benchrest shooters are indeed fanatic to improve on every possible variable, and they do the testing and have strong views as to what works for them, even though some may be theory (and hard to prove) and not fact. Just to show one more extreme, they use a trigger let-off of between 3 and 6 ounces, whereas we us between 2 and 3 lbs on our hunting rifles.

Warrior

The 6mm BR is more popular today than the 6 mm PPC. Whilst the 6PPC may fair a little better at 100 to 200 yards, the 6BR's extra powder capacity gives it an edge at ranges from 300 to 600 yards, where it holds various records. The 6mm BR is thus able to drive the heavier bullets offering higher BC's that are needed for the longer distances. It is also easier to load as cases can be bought from Lapua, whereas with the 6PPC you have to turn necks and fire-form the cases from smaller 220 Russian brass. That's lots of work. Lapua also offers 90 gr and 105 gr bullets as std factory ammo.

Despite its small size, the 6BR offers better ballistics than a .308 Win, though the 6BR burns 33% less powder and produces 55% less recoil. (6BR with 105gr compared to .308 with 175gr.) In this respect case design assists the benchrest shooter to enjoy lower recoil but still achieving an acceptable trajectory by virtue of the launced velocity with a high BC bullet.

If interested in more detail about the 6mm BR, read the full article in ... http://www.6mmbr.com/6mmbr.html

Warrior

Warrior! I truely am in aww over your last 2 postings. Not only content but your easy intelligent writting style. Thank you roger