If the guy set up next to you as it was the only bench available, well, thats just how things go. If others available, you should have asked him to move down a bit.
Maybe he was recoil sensitive. I have a 30 cal with a brake, but thats the only way it comes from the factory. My other 30 is a 308 pistol, and by golly, I am keeping the brake on!!
As far as someone shooting next to you, with a brake and your muffs are off. Was the line hot, then it was your fault for having your muffs off. You want to talk, remove yourself from the firing llne. Though, he SHOULD have warned you that he was getting ready to shoot. Courtesy. If cold, then the other guys fault, and he shouldn't have been shooting on a cold range and would have been thrown off the range quickly here.

My takeaway is that the issue is not just muzzle brakes but, as has been pointed out already, any weapon that produces unusually large noise and concussion. While the range I go to now does not allow 50 BMG rifles, i have had bad experiences with eg. the 338Lapua, at the 100 yard range no less. At the pistol range, other shooters have been "interested in" my 475 Linebaugh. My AMT in 30 carbine also caused some interest as well as my 500NE double rifle. So, while "regular" rounds from braked rifles may be uncomfortable, so also are the large bores or high pressure/high performance rounds eg. the large Weatherbys. Basically the "Hmmm, what are you shooting" incidents.
Peter.

I have a brake on my 300WSM, but WILL NOT use it unless everyone is at least two tables away, preferring not to blow them off their bench with blast or noise. If I really want to shoot the gun and there are too many people, I take the brake off and put on the thread protector.

Some other shooters are not as considerate, however. I usually will make a comment to them.

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
Never seen such a group of men that like to shoot guns sitting around complaining about the noise a gun makes....

Don't make much sense to me. Between ear protection and safety glasses what does a little air displacement hurt.

Todd

Next time you're shooting, how about I stand next to you and slap you up the side your head (hade for the Southerners), just as your squeezing your trigger. EVERY time. You're right, we're all whiners.

It isn't "air displacement" it's a blast/shock wave. Same reason I can't stand being next to AK-47 shooters with the issue brake. Fucking painful for everyone but the shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
Don't make much sense to me. Between ear protection and safety glasses what does a little air displacement hurt.

You seem not to understand noise-induced hearing loss. This means you are relying on luck. Doing so could ultimately cost you dearly, as it has some of us here.

Evidently, you have not even read what has already been stated in this thread.

It only takes a couple of days for a light shoulder bruise to heal but hearing damage affects everyone nearby, is cumulative and lasts forever

Another result of the insane anti suppressor law we have.

One of the worse public heath disasters ever force on us by our government.

I use electronic muffs so I don't have to take them off to talk they have saved my ears many of times

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
I think I understand it better than most. Guns create hearing loss. End of story. If you aren't doubling up ear protection every first chance you get and you go deaf, that's on you. Not the guy next to you. Most any center fire gun being shot is loud enough to cause damage. With modern hearing protection there is no excuse, not even under hunting circumstances, for not wearing it.

I hate breaks as much as the next guy and really hated guiding elk hunter that had them. I was in the hieght of my guiding career when the BOSS system was introduced and every guy that showed up to camp had one on his elk rifle.

I learned after the first one wearing ear protection wasn't an option.

Yup..... Whole bunch of folks that love to shoot sitting around complaining about the noise guns make.. Still don't make much sense to me...

Todd

then move on...

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
I think I understand it better than most. Guns create hearing loss. End of story. If you aren't doubling up ear protection every first chance you get and you go deaf, that's on you. Not the guy next to you. Most any center fire gun being shot is loud enough to cause damage. With modern hearing protection there is no excuse, not even under hunting circumstances, for not wearing it.

I hate breaks as much as the next guy and really hated guiding elk hunter that had them. I was in the hieght of my guiding career when the BOSS system was introduced and every guy that showed up to camp had one on his elk rifle.

I learned after the first one wearing ear protection wasn't an option.

Yup..... Whole bunch of folks that love to shoot sitting around complaining about the noise guns make.. Still don't make much sense to me...

Todd

I'm with Todd

Complaints heard.....solution.....hearing protection

Simple

BTW......I own and shoot several rifles with brakes....designed to reduce muzzle lift

I,m with Alf, if ya can't take the heat get out of the kitchen...Adding more rules and regs is one thing I,ve come to fear most in out great country..

Alf is correct, if brakes are bad then soon we will be whining about short barreled guns, magnum revolvers...Rifles with or without brakes will ruin your hearing, they did mine and there were no brakes to speak of back then.
I suggest you wear hearing protection and get over it.

I keep hearing about the mythical PH or guide that won't guide hunters with a brake on his gun, I call BS on that one..I don't know any real PH or guide who is trying to make a living turning down a hunt for that reason, and if there is one out there then send the client to me and I'll hunt him and pay you a commission..

Just an opposing view, with a touch or reality.

There are some benifits to the hearing loss

You dont hear the whining of the dudes whinging and moaning about the noise on the range

You dont hear when the missus has a go at you from the kitchen

But more seriously high frequency deafness is a problem, you tend to avoid crowds and places with high back ground noise, places where back ground music is played irritates you; you have difficulty triangulating where sound comes from and you tend to focus on one source of sound blocking out everything else.... so if you are watching TV and someone speaks to you you dont hear them. If you are in a crowd and someone speaks to you you block out all others so if someone else speaks to you you dont hear them, people think you are rude because you dont respond....

I can go on and on.... have the T shirt to prove it Was diagnosed when I went for my Special forces medical at the age of 26 years.

The ENT who did the hearing tests for the medical was a friend he picked it up and showed my the graphs on the audiogram.... I asked him to fake them and give me a clean bill of health ( which he did) but it was there.

Now I wear Muffs and plugs / Double up on the protection.

Once again I think the shooters with muzzle brakes and particularly loud firearms have a right to use a public range, however it does not extend to disrupting or even doing injury to his neighbors on the range.

Some muzzle braked rifles can still cause hearing injury even with muffs, and shooters to the side of the rifle get slapped in the face by the blast every time it's fired and sometimes have their notes and targets blown off the bench. If the shooter of such a rifle just realizes what he has and what it can do to his neighbors and acts accordingly everything is peachy. Most shooters that are unaware will accommodate if politely informed of what happens when they shoot and there almost always will be a way to mitigate the annoyance. It's just a matter of good neighbors and good manners like not letting your dog crap in your neighbor's yard.

oh dear oh dear what shall we do ! you dont need no brake to blow shit off the table!
I have seen some guns ( no brakes ) that will knock the enamel off your teeth if they are lit up not to speak off the batshit that's up under the rafters of the shooting shed

We belong to a private gun club / range at the exorbinant price of $75 year. There's plenty of room and brake or no brake (I'm of the no brake persuasion) there are no issues. At public ranges where you're packed in under a tin roof it is painful being next to someone with a braked 300 or larger. That's why I don't go to them any more except early Sunday mornings when all the non-Druids are at church.

So all ye non-shooters of 300s and up..Are we all to give up our guns to appease you, most be form California, the land of law and regs..

I believe a 300 WBY shooter with a brake should holler fire in the hole, and that's it...BTW if you have a good set of ear protection no blast from a rifle is going to ruin your hearing..and you can always add some plugs..

This is more like whining about smoking in central park, it's just over the top..

What is more serious is some hunter cracking off a rifle, braked or not, in your ear at a scampering deer, without warning his partner to stick his fingers in his ears cuz your getting ready for the kill!! that is rude! That is what contributed greatly to my loss of hearing.

I don't wear ear protection while hunting, and don't understand how anyone can do that and still be an effective hunter unless he is one of the television rosebuds that sits in a stand and makes me a nervous wreck while I'm shouting "shoot the son of a bitch" under my breath as he screws with his adjustments, his rifle safety that should have been off 10 minutes ago, and of course he is checking his power from 3 to 16 for perfection, and waiting until this big ole buck turns exactly sideways and lifts his head to pose..God help us all!

My HK style .308 was horrible. A short barrel with a brake. I could feel a concussion wave when I shot it. I warned folks that arrived after I did about it. Usually I stopped shooting that gun when people came up to shoot. I think that was the primary reason I sold the gun and now wish for another semi 308. I rue the day I moved to town. In the country I parted the hair of a coyote out my sliding glass door once. No brake but no one complained here in the state of Misery.

quote:

he is one of the television rosebuds that sits in a stand and makes me a nervous wreck while I'm shouting "shoot the son of a bitch" under my breath as he screws with his adjustments, his rifle safety that should have been off 10 minutes ago, and of course he is checking his power from 3 to 16 for perfection, and waiting until this big ole buck turns exactly

Ray, I always assumed that they added that footage later. You forgot to mention the "high fives"!
Peter.

Ray, I greatly respect your opinion but you've made it clear you don't much understand sensorineural hearing loss. When I fell off the acoustic cliff at work I thought I was done for good. A pricey set of aids gotten locally just made things louder, but did not restore the discriminatory hearing I need to keep people alive in an OR.

I got referred to a MGH audiologist who got me some very pricey aids, and I was able to return to work. A few months later I made a mistake at the range - my right muff got knocked off by the lead-sled during recoil. This was no more an exposure than had occurred many times when younger. Because of the overall severity of my loss I was now seriously messed up, hearing multiple tones, experiencing vertical vertigo, and had completely lost directional sense. The "weirdness" lasted almost a full year. After that my audiologist threatened to fire me as a client if I screwed up again.

So yes, Ray, I wear electronic muffs when hunting now. And bird hunting is pretty much out.

Alf gave a decent description of some of the behavioral changes (all of which I have) associated with sensorineural hearing loss.

He omitted a very important detail: until you reach a certain threshold you are apt to be somewhat cavalier about your hearing loss. The reason is your higher brain functions - am simplifying here - fill in the gaps. This works until a point. Then you fall off a cliff. Abruptly. Apparently, you are not there. I am there. It is lousy. My reality - forever - is the world sounds like a cheap AM radio with a broken speaker. Does that sound like fun?

Again, I am no socialist, and am not advocating for range-Nazi regulations. I am advocating for common sense and courtesy toward others. What I said earlier about discomfort and tinnitus is bankable. Whether you wear muffs or plugs - or both - you should not assume you are fully protected. Categorically, plugs and muffs together do not cut mustard if you are proximal to something like a Barrett 82CQ.

My son wears electronics while hunting. I will be damned if he ends up like me.

If hearing is critical to your livelihood, and you hit the bread line if you lose one more ounce of hearing...what are you doing at a rifle range? Do you check everyones gunbag and load recipes to ensure that critical decibel levels sufficient to breech even double protection won't be reached? Is it someone elses responsibility to protect your hearing? Solve your own problem and find a quiet place to shoot, or find other people of a like mind and build your own noise free shooting club. You don't have to shut off the stove to quit burning your hand, just take your hand off the f*%@ing burner. God bless America.

Sorry for my perceived "whining" and that's not how it was intended.

I'm already half deaf and a few more loud noises isn't likely to make much of a difference. My only point is a brake on medium bore is unnecessary and subjects everyone next to you to a muzzle blast that no matter how disciplined you are affects you if you are trying to shoot groups and the guy next to you touches one off right before the trigger breaks.

I'm not saying we should pass a law forbidding brakes, heaven forbid, I just want the guys who have them to understand they are a rather obnoxious beast. And, move to the end of the line at least.

I'm sure every PH or tracker who has ever hunted with someone with a brake would agree with me. Those that don't, that's your First Amendment right and I'll support that too.

Since the topic of this thread was "Etiquete on the range" I was assuming that was what we were discussing.
If our behavior is bothering other serious shooters, how do you think it is affecting non-shooters?

.458,
Thank you.

Interesting, Quintus, that one who wishes not to be told how to go about his life is the first to tell someone else how to go about his. That answers your first question.

To both your second and third questions, no. But you already knew that.

Merely suggestions. Unfortunately I do not have access to a range within a reasonable drive. Luckily I do have a gravel pit and no shooters out of my group to consider. It does seem odd to me that there are not written or unwritten rules about such things as brakes. one end furthest from the range shack or partitions or some sort of established code. Brakes are obnoxious, and yet I love to shoot with them. It isn't a need thing, but look at the "Is this caliber adequate?" debates and see where that gets us. There is just some appealing to me in seeing the bullet strike. Whether it's popping a p-dog with a 243 or the shudder in a nice buck with one in the crease.

Quintus, you have a point. I never said that brakes weren't of some use, I've just never shot with one and they disrupt my shooting. You have a very viable solution with an occasional partition. This could be done easily. Thanks for the suggestion.

I have always thought it my responsibility to be courteous at the range. I try to accommodate others there, as in the rest of my life. I used to have a short barreled 6.5-284. Yah, that was stupid! At 20" barrel length, it was louder on both ends than any braked rifle I encountered at the range less than a 50BMG. I always moved to a bench where there was no one within 2 benches in either direction. I just thought I was being polite. Hell, maybe I was just being a wussie.

I have severe hearing loss from things other than shooting. They found out the anesthesia from surgery caused it for me and it is irreversible. After 4 surgeries before they found the cause, I lost 80% in some ranges. I always wear plugs and electronic muffs at the range and still the electronic muffs while hunting. Just no other choice.

Just wow,

I've owned and shot braked rifles, but don't currently own any, and still have a few braked handcannon pistols. I used to shoot at a public range in Phoenix (Ben Avery) when I lived down there. It was a very busy range on weekends. Some of my guns are truly loud. I would set up where I was assigned a table, no choice, that's it. If I was shooting something "loud" that day (not necessarily braked, but loud), I would warn the guys next to me if I didn't know them, before I touched one off (I was a regular, and had a regular table assigned to me). But I would only warn them once. It's up to the person coming to the range to have proper hearing protection. I'm not a nanny, and won't play one for you. If you're an adult, and at the range, I fully expect you to take responsibility for your own hearing. You should preplan for experiencing noise when you make the decision to come to a shooting range. That's range etiquette.

If a guy shows up with his wife and kids, and setup at a table next to me, and it's pretty obvious that they are not a "shooter" family, then I make allowances for those kids, and will sit out, or shoot something smaller and quieter (if I brought it), until they leave. I'm usually there for hours, and most folks come and go in minutes, after shooting up their one or two boxes of factory ammo. So, I'll wait them out if I can.

I shoot at a private club range up here. So far, I've only met adults there (even the kids have acted like adults). Maybe they test for that, I dunno. There is a mandatory range orientation though, before you're ever even allowed to come to the range, maybe that helps weed out the overly emotional ones? But I've never had anyone complain that the guns are loud. Everyone there is courteous and respectful to each other.

To the big bull strutting badasses that asked about how I would like it if they hit me upside the head while I was shooting...

Are you F*cking kidding me? Try it. Try it one time. I double-dog-dare you. You'll have a whole bunch of blood loss to go along with your hearing loss. F*n' keyboard internet tough guys. You come up to me and tell me I need to move because my gun(s) make too much noise, AT A PUBLIC RANGE, and I will laugh in your face. Maybe invest in something other than the 25 cent or "freebie" foam earplugs that aren't even inserted in your ears properly?

The Tacticool Toddlers in their brand spanking new AR's and "service" pistols, and full tacticool gear, with no idea how a gun works or how to clear it, are a far bigger concern at the public ranges than folks shooting guns that are too loud.

I'm with Ray on this one, if you can't be around loud noises, and are too precious or self-important to be bothered to wear proper, high quality hearing protection, while at a public shooting range, then stay the hell home. If you're one slammed bedroom door away from losing your job due to hearing loss, why in the unholy halls of hell are you at a SHOOTING RANGE, that may actually, accidentally, gasp, have GUNS BEING FIRED!!???

Heaven help us, there is no hope left for humanity.

If I'm invited to shoot on someone's private farm/place, the first question I ask them is, "What do you want me/do not want me/ to bring". That is a totally different scenario, I'm a guest at someone's place. I'll bring what they want, or will leave home what they don't want. It's fine and no problem to me at all. If they say "No big guns/loud guns", then it's rimfires, 22 Hornet and maybe 223. Which happens if we're shooting gophers near the house, barn or stock pens.

But at a shooting range, with many shooters coming and going with who knows what all for guns?

No you guys are off your nut. Totally unrealistic special snow flake status.

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:
If you're one slammed bedroom door away from losing your job due to hearing loss, why in the unholy halls of hell are you at a SHOOTING RANGE, that may actually, accidentally, gasp, have GUNS BEING FIRED!!???

Sensorineural hearing loss can be caused by non-firearm noise. Really.

An open car window can do it, as can a chainsaw, lawnmower, tractor, standing in a automotive garage, or any number of things. Just a matter of db times duration of exposure. Look it up, Slim.

All the foregoing require affirmative steps to prevent further hearing loss, but all can be anticipated. So why should I forever forego all shooting activities when I can anticipate noise exposure?

OK, not everyone drives up to the range with plugs installed and muffs on. But I do.

Or perhaps you believe all damaging noises can be anticipated? That would be silly, wouldn't it?

Anyway, nice rant Slim.

Sam,

You are not a special snowflake.

I too have substantial hearing loss. I got it in the service. Was informed at my separation physical 25 years ago that I had lost ~80% of my hearing, worse across some frequency ranges than others, as I'm sure you're aware can happen. A few frequencies I'm stone cold deaf in. I have the full spectrum of fun from it, ears ring constantly, can't hear voices with background noise, can't hear in loud restaurants and bars, etc. I'm sure you get it, as you likely deal with the same issues.

And all this hearing loss for me, was from running equipment in a deployment unit, not from firing guns with or without brakes.

That, and a free burial when I die, are about the only lasting benefits I still have from my service to my country.

That does not give me, nor anyone else, you included, the special rights to dictate what and where someone can shoot at a public shooting facility. My entire point is that it's a facility for "many" to shoot. Not just you. Get it?

Seriously, find somewhere else to shoot, like a farm, or other safe place where you won't have to risk someone firing a gun that is above your self imposed limit of allowable noise.

I'm not ranting, but you are not the snowflake in charge, and you don't get to decide what's ok at a public facility.

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:
That does not give me, nor anyone else, you included, the special rights to dictate what and where someone can shoot at a public shooting facility. My entire point is that it's a facility for "many" to shoot. Not just you. Get it?

Not one thread participant asserted a "special right" to "dictate what and where someone can shoot". The OP was venting. He did not call for draconian and arbitrary range reforms.

Your false perception led you to believe your rights were being threatened, apparently.

But you asserted a "special right" to tell me to give up shooting.

There is a word for that, Slim. It is hypocrisy. Get it?

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
Never seen such a group of men that like to shoot guns sitting around complaining about the noise a gun makes....

How do you know they're men? Maybe some of them are ladies.

Would it do any good to say that I try to shoot everything suppressed?

I belong to couple gun clubs here in Co and both require membership in NRA and proof each year of membership. Reason for that is club insurance is thru NRA.

We have no rules barring use of a muzzle brake.

It's pretty simple don't like the rules then don't join.

quote:

Originally posted by Samuel_Hoggson:


Not one thread participant asserted a "special right" to "dictate what and where someone can shoot". The OP was venting. He did not call for draconian and arbitrary range reforms.

Your false perception led you to believe your rights were being threatened, apparently.

But you asserted a "special right" to tell me to give up shooting.

There is a word for that, Slim. It is hypocrisy. Get it?

Wrong. Maybe your hearing loss is affecting your reading comprehension:

From Lavaca's opening post:

Muzzle brakes are obnoxious.

So, I've said it. If you really need a muzzle brake on a pipsqueak caliber, can you go shoot by yourself?

Meaning he doesn't think they should be allowed. Call that an assertion.

From Jerry's first post:

and I ask a new arrival at the range not to set up next to me unless there are no other empty positions.

Meaning they are not welcome next to him. Call that an assertion.

From Lavaca's add on post:

I can see a legitimate use for them. Just not next to me.

Call that an assertion that they don't belong next to him.

And then there's this from A7Dave:

Nope, I'm with you. I F-ing hate muzzle brakes at the range. Can't stand the idiots that use them.

Followed by this little gem:

Next time you're shooting, how about I stand next to you and slap you up side your head(hade for the Southerners), just as your squeezing your trigger. EVERY time. You're right, we're all whiners.

Now I'd call that an assertion, wouldn't you? I'd also call that potential suicide on Dave's part, but maybe that's just me?

And again from lavaca:


I know you well enough to know how that was intended. Funny.

But I would have welcomed a bit of noise control on our range last weekend -- not from the Revered Leader, but my left ear is still ringing.

There he is calling for noise rules. I call that an assertion. Don't you?

From Jerry again:

Once again I think the shooters with muzzle brakes and particularly loud firearms have a right to use a public range, however it does not extend to disrupting or even doing injury to his neighbors on the range.

Again making an assertion as to who or what is disruptive. As to injury, again, it is up to the individual shooter to account for his own hearing protection. Not for him to decide what is disruptive in others shooting.

lavaca again:

My only point is a brake on medium bore is unecessary

Again, asserting that they are not necessary, therefore no one should have one because he doesn't think they are needed.


So, yes, dear Samuel, there have been PLENTY of assertions thrown around. Don't piss down my back and claim that it's raining.

If you're at a private shooting location, someone's ranch or farm, or set up by yourself at an open range area, sure you can ask folks with you to shoot what you'd prefer they shoot. Fine and dandy.

But you get in your car and drive to a PUBLIC shooting range... Then you take all comers and either plan for it with properly outfitted hearing protection, or you go the hell home.

End of story.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Sure is a lot of bitchy people at these rifle ranges

I'm glad I don't have to deal with whine bags

X2, Tit whiners, crybaby pussies. WOW!!!

Hearing loss is a significent loss but can be caused in many ways ,some, not by any cause of yours. I was sitting in my brothers den watching the news when he said supper was ready ,I got up and walked 3 steps to the kitchen and was deaf in my left ear. Have been ever since,wear a hearing aid and get by more or less.
I still shoot but wear the hearing protection as I did before the deafness. If I cannot stand the noise in a place I leave but I don't restrict others to any practice because of my lack of hearing. I even shoot my 458WinMag 03 Springfield that has a 16" barrel. It speaks with authority.

Sorry, Slim, but none of those things constitute assertions of a legal right.

I will cut/paste some of Lavaca's comments directly touching on the question differently than you, ie., with fuller context: "I'm not saying we should pass a law forbidding brakes, heaven forbid, I just want the guys who have them to understand they are a rather obnoxious beast. And, move to the end of the line at least......I'm sure every PH or tracker who has ever hunted with someone with a brake would agree with me. Those that don't, that's your First Amendment right and I'll support that too."

No calls for legislative relief, no claim to some civil actionable right. So no, I don't see that as assertion of "special rights". Venting, certainly......kinda like yours......

Kimber 84L 30-06 with brake: http://youtu.be/tmtpOVBzF6k

This is a brake that I made in my spare time....two 90° ports and four 30° ports all going up and out

It's sole design was to minimize lift so downrange impacts could be seen through the scope on Prarie Dogs with a .223

I figured if I could tame the -06 the .223 would be easy

Watch the air displacement.....wow

What about just using common courtesy?

If you have a brake or a big boomer try to set up away from the guy who is trying to concentrate or show his kid how to shoot. Or at least let them know whats coming.

If you have a black powder gun try to find the spot where smoke isn't blowing into the next guys face.

If you have an auto rifle find the spot where you aren't raining empties down the back of the guy next to you who is sighting in.

Sure, any self-respecting hunter/shooter can take all this stuff, but a heads up cant hurt.