Okay, I'm just a bit confused. Will someone please tell me why the 35 Whelen just never seemed to catch on and the 9.3X62 is the greatest thing since punctureproof toilet paper? I look and look at the performance of both and can only see minor differences between them. Considering that the Whelen has an inexhaustable supply of brass from blown out 30/06 cases and that has to be a plus in its favor, I just don't see why the 9.3X62 would be a better choice.
Anyone care to explain?

Can't get a .35 Whelen either!

Ok, I'll be serious.

I think that for me it is:

- A selection of heavier bullets.
- Slightly larger bore diameter.
- Possible legal use in Africa as well as here.
- Just as available in rifles (although brass IS a different topic).
- NOT the same old thing.

Speculation only:
1. The 9.3 has been a factory load in Europe for generations and has a large following there. The Whelen was a wildcat for the longest portion of its existance and Remington poisoned it's entry into the factory ranks by bringing out the stupid little .350 Rem Mag before they chambered for the Whelen. (Always blame everything on Remington wherever possible) .

2. The 9.3 is legal for DG in Africa and (for no partularly good reason) the Whelen is not.

3. For a long time the Whelen could only be loaded with bullets that were really designed for the .35 Remington and opened too fast at Whelen velocities. This isn't true, now, of course but it was a factor once.

4. The standard load in the 9.3 is 286 gr., about 15% heavier than the 250 gr. bullets available in the Whelen.

5. There hasn't ever (to my knowledge) been a factory CRF rifle chambered for the Whelen and almost all the 9.3's are.

Now mind you, though I have a 9.3 right now and don't have a Whelen, that's purely happenstance. Some day I'd like to build up a Perfect American Pair in 257 Roberts and 35 Whelen on Springfield actions. That would neatly cover anything in the New World and be totally class, to boot. Anyone else have any ideas?

I believe that Ruger chambered for the 35 Whelen at one time, and Winchester had them from their custom shop. - Dan

I think that OldSarge hit it when he pointed out that the 9.3x62 is a factory round and has been for nearly 100 yrs. The Whelen on the other hand, is primarily a wild cat.

There is no particular benefit regarding brass because you can make 9.3 brass from 30-06 also.

Both have had their difficulties in obtaining suitable bullets, but you can get excellent bullets for the 9.3 at this time. I don't know about the .35.

I have not hunted the .35 but the 9.3x62 is unbelieveably versatile. It will do just about anything you could ask of a cartridge at ranges under 250yds. That is hard to beat. Ku-dude

I thought long and hard, and ended up with the Whelen. It's more versatile than the 9.3, much more bullet selection, you can use the many .357 pistol bullets too. Brass is easy to find, even Whelen headstamp brass is cheap, factory ammo is cheap, and more available, reloading dies are much cheaper also. The only thing the 9.3 has is it's a "Legal dangerous game caliber", and I have a .458 win for that.

Ruger made their Limited Edition M-77 Mk II in 35 Whelen, so there is such a thing as a factory CRF 35 Whelen, though they're hard to find. I had one and it was a slick little rifle once I got it running right.

35 Whelen factory ammo is supposed to go 2,400 with a 250 gr. bullet, but it really goes about 2,300. You have to handload the Whelen to get full performance, but once you do, 2,550 is not hard to get with a 250 gr. bullet. On the other hand, the 9.3 will do 35 Whelen speeds with less pressure, or outrun it at the same pressure. Most factory 9.3 ammo moves a 286 at 2,350, but some is slower. You can also get heavier bullets for the 9.3 from Nosler, Speer and Barnes. Also, you can make servicable brass for each one from 30-06 cases, though it takes more work to get 9.3 brass exactly right. In the end, 9.3 factory ammo is a bit more powerful and dedicated reloaders can do a bit more with it.

Also remember that from the start, the 35 Whelen was sold as a cheap way to get more punch than a 30-06. As a result, many 35 Whelens were built on cheap rifles that had been worn out in their original chambering: WWI-vintage 98 Mausers, Winchester 1985s or low-numbered Springfields. Unfortunately, the work was not always done by people who knew what they were doing. Because of these things, Remington and Ruger 35 Whelens have a 1:16 twist to help keep pressures down, and the ammo is downloaded considerably. Remngton's 35 Whelen brass is quite a bit heavier than their 30-06 brass, indicating that it is built to be stronger, probably because the legal department got together with the ballistics department to decide how factory ammo would be loaded. Because of all these things, I'd bet that no US ammo maker will ever load the 35 Whelen to its full potential.

Does any of this amount to a hill of beans on Opening Day? Probably not, and if it does, you're probably better off with a 416. The 35 Whelen and the 9.3x62 Mauser are both grand cartridges, each with its own peculiar and glorious history. But we Americans like to think we're getting full power for our dollar, and when you get into loading for a factory-built 35 Whelen rifle, you start to get a sense that it's not really there, or that you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get it.

In the end, both the 35 Whelen and the 9.3x62 Mauser have always been a way to get the punch true big-bore without the cost. That's still what they do today, they just do it a little differently.

Hope this helps, Okie John.

The 9.3x62 was designed in the early days of smokeless powder with the intention of finding the most efficient cartridge that would fit in a mauser action with a standard boltface. It proved a complete success and has been in production for 98 years.

The .35 Whelen was not designed from scratch. It was stumbled upon when necking the .30-06 up and down. Had it been designed for efficiency, it would have a longer body with less taper. It is a sad tale for a decent cartridge, but it went from being a wildcat to being obsolete, with only about ten years of legitimacy in between.

[ 01-12-2003, 05:16: Message edited by: KurtC ]

Along with Ruger Remington chambered the 700 and their pump for 35 whelen.

For those who shoot european rifles, how dumb would a Merkel SXS in 35 Whelen sound?

NO RIM for the 35 whatevers. the 9.3 has several rimmed rounds that add to the market for the .366 bullet.

A mauser in 35 whelen?

Go into a european store and ask for a box of 35 whelens.

Go into any place in Africa and ask for a box of 35 whelens.

Go into any place and ask for a box of factory 35 whelens or ask for 9.3, either 62 or 74R, and compare the weight.

Now haveing said all that, there is nothing more classically american than the townsend and roberts calibers, and if I were to be building up a Dakota pair in single shot and bolt, I would go with the 257 Roberts and the 35 Whelen.
(If either had a rimmed variety).

Okay, I'll admit it - I just had to do this to see whom would respond and what would be said. And you have all done very well. I read a story about using the 35 Whelen in Africa and it pretty much solidified my choice of caliber for a 1917 Enfield (Winchester) action that I am going to turn into a custom piece. If your interestsed, go to http://www.african-hunter.com/site/firearms/35wheleninzimbabwe_03.htm
and have a look.
Gives some details on the loads, bullets, performance, etc.
Thanks to all that responded and wish me well with the current project.

I am sorry, but I just can't resist Jameister's (what language is that supposed to be, anyhow?) bait - it's too good a chance to let it pass. Hunters will understand .

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jameister:
For those who shoot european rifles, how dumb would a Merkel SxS in 35 Whelen sound?
NO RIM for the 35 whatevers.

---

European side by sides (notably Belgian ones) have indeed been built for the .33 Winchester and especially for the very fine .35 Winchester. Your point being ?

And in the metric "9mm designation" realm, the 9 x 57 R was very popular, and the 9 x 70 R is truly superb. Again: what was your point ?

quote:

---

Now having said all that, there is nothing more classically american than the townsend and roberts calibers

---

1.
I hope you do not denote the mere fact of something being an uninspired copy as making it thereby "classically American" - I certainly have a higher opinion of the capabilities of former US arms and cartridge designers :-).
The .35 Whelen is a very uninspired 1920's re-creation (if not copy) of the preceding (two decades earlier) excellent German 9 x 63 M/88. Just as the .270 Winchester is a little-inspired copy of the ballistically superb German 6,8 mm Chinese Mauser.

2.
Having rectified this, let me again critically examine my above lines. Yes, "uninspired copy" is the first impression that everybody will have, and it not a wrong one. But it is not 100 % fair either, as I have to admit if we are willing to research it a bit more scholarly.
The wheel has not been invented in one single place of the world. In the same vein, many creations in the field of firearms and ammunition have taken place simultaneously, or with little interference one from unto the other. For example, the now-so popular decocking safety in German bolt action rifles (a common fad since the 1980s) is usually attributed by the savvy to my patron, Salvatore Carcano, as its originator - and justly so, for his system was the one to gain worldwide spread and recognition. Yet, Carcano did not work with a blank drawing sheet and an empty table. Like most of his contemporaries (and very few of later designers), he was able and willing (!) to read and think and compare the existing literature, before endeavouring on a design. It is very likely that his decocker safety, first employed in the 1867 Carcano conversion, was again taken from the little-known obscure German example of D�rsch & Baumgarten.

In the same way, Whelen probably had the same idea as the (DWM) inventors of the predecessor cartridge, the 9 x 63 M/88: take an existing and common military case (the 8x57 M/88 in Germany, the .30-03 and .30-06), lengthen it - if need be - and neck it up. In Whelen's case, the *motive* most likely was the understandable desire to create a rimless cartridge which would be on a par to the excellent and proven performance of the .35 Winchester.
Yes, the German 9 x 63 M/88 was known at that time, was well-publicized by the widely read books of Aleander Florstedt, and it likely served the US re-inventors as welcome support (showing that the project was feasible and sensible)... but the .35 Whelen is, if I am fair, not a "mere" copy of it, because the actual lineage is a wee bit less obvious, such as I have shown above.

In the same vein, the .257 Roberts is little more than a US half-brother or cousin Billybob of the long-preceding 6x57 and 6,5x57 Mauser - all three are built on the classic 7x57 Mauser case. And yes, the proven German cartridges probably showed Roberts that his projects (primarily motivated by the desire to fire .257" bullets from an existing and common basis case) was feasible. Still, it is not "altgether" a mere copy, but rather the same done for te same motives.

3.
And now back to your last lines, where you wrote:
and if I were to be building up a Dakota pair in single shot and bolt, I would go with the 257 Roberts and the 35 Whelen.
(If either had a rimmed variety).

The rimmed cartridges exist. They are the 6x57 R and 6,5x57 R (extinct the first, extremely popular the latter), and the 9x57 R and 9x70 R respectively.

Now go and build - it's indeed an excellent project .

Best regards,
Carcano

[ 01-12-2003, 19:17: Message edited by: carcano91 ]

He used a 35 Whelen on this? A .22 rimfire would be enough.



Now this is more like it.



[ 01-12-2003, 19:10: Message edited by: GSF1200 ]

Trapper, good luck with your 35 Whelen project. I only used 250 gr. bullets in my Ruger Limited Edition M-77 MkII with a 22" 1:16 twist barrel. I found that powder makers publish hotter data than bullet makers. IMR 4230 seemed too fast and IMR 4064 was accurate, but RL-15 gave more velocity with less pressure. Loaded to just under Alliant's published max, Hornady round nose and spitzer bullets went 2,550 fps from a 22" barrel in cool weather. I never could get the Barnes solid to shoot very well, but I didn't use it much.

Out of the box, my rifle shot about 1 MOA with most handloads or the Federal 225 Trophy Bonded load, and about 2 MOA with Remington ammo. In both 200 and 250 gr. loads, Remington ammo was 50-100 fps slower than they claim, but it's still powerful and sometimes you can find it on sale at big chain sporting goods stores. The Federal 225 gr. Trophy Bonded load is accurate and clocks about 2,600; most 35 Whelen users keep some on hand in case they run out of handloads.

Hope this helps, Okie John.

Really, you need one of each. - Dan

Gentlemen

35 Whelen? why this odd round
Most 35 cal bullets have poor SD and BC compared to bullets in 338 or 9,3.

I would go for a 9,3X62. AMMO is easy to find on most places of the globe, bullet selection is pretty large. More interesting rifles are camberd in 9,3X62 than in 35 whelen.

Finally, 9,3X62 is a classic round

You will never find a 35 in my gunvault or closet

/ JOHAN

For me it is more popular over here in Africa. I have never met somebody who uses a 35 Whelen, and have never seen ammo for it over here

While bouncing around Europe(on Uncle Sams behalf)I saw ammo for 9.3x62,9.3x64 and 9.3x74R!
When we were "Down-Under",again I found 9.3 ammo in different weight's and calibre,not to mention 30/06 was available all over!
The local gun shop up here in Northern-Minnesota has RWS and Norma 9.3X62 ammo in 286 and 232(?)(not sure which exact lighter weight,just it wasn't the right stuff for us!)
On the same page,that shop carries two 35Whelen rounds, 1. Remington 200grain PSP 2.Federal 225 Trophy-Bonded.
While in Spartenberg,SC this past November,I found RWS ammo in a well-stocked store! That same place had a gent complaining about that no-one carried any 358winchester ammo anymore!

Flip,
How common is the 9.3x64 in Nambia? Ammo available? Cost? Thanks, Bob

I have a pre-64 M70 in .35 Whelan AI and I love it.

Wstrnhuntr......
I got the 35 Whelen in a M77 MKII and plain love it ! Great shooter

Wstrnhuntr

what a load of american hill billy bullshit I guess you can find 35 whelen ammo in USA, but in other countries is not that easy, face the facts.

I have never like the 35 cal. I don't need a 35 , I have something much better already, 9,3X62. Why trade it for a odd bastard round like the new and already dead 35 whelen

/ JOHAN

I have been shooting the .35 Whelen for about 15 years now. It is probably one of the most under rated cartridges out there. The first moose that I killed with it took 1/2 steps backwards to fall on his butt. Of the 8-9 caribou that have fallen, not one moved from his tracks. Ptargiman and rabbits fall on the spot. I can shoot .357 caliber pistol bullets all the way up to 300 grain .358's. I love it!

9.3 X 62 is available from Graf and Son in Missouri. I have seen 35 Whelan as well. I happen to like the idea of handloading to low velocity with .357 revolver bullets. I would go for a factory Whelan. Having said that I would buy a CZ Fullstock 550 in a heartbeat! (in 9.3) I see no problem. If you can't decide then get one of each, Shoot 1000 rounds from each then give both of them to me I can't decide for myself......

Looks simple to me.

If you are an American and don't expect to ever get to Africa, buy or build a .35 Whelen.

If you are a European, expect to hunt Africa, or just have entirely too much money, go with the 9.3.

Hey Robert Bob I thought that we were going to use our FN/FALs for dangerous Afrikian game.

"Why would I have a problem hunting Africa with my 35 Whelen? I will take my own ammo"

Whenever I travel with firearms, I am required to pack weapon and ammo in separate luggage pieces. As you may recall you can not carry on either ammo or firearm, although I have tried by mistake to send ammo through metal detector. they do work!!

Anyway, if either the firearm or hte ammo luggage is lost, delayed, or stolen, voila, you know why your 35 whelan is a boat paddle, neither the ammo of the rifle are useful by themselves.

Both are excellent calibers. Elmer Keith was a fan of the 35 Whelen, but He used 275 grain bullets.

I started out with .35s in the medium bore class, a Rem 700 in .350RM and a Mauser in .35 Whelan. The 700 went to Africa with me on my first (plains game only) hunt and did well with 225-grain Nosler Partitions at 2500 fps. I never did much with the Whelan except shoot it at the range.

A few years ago I decided I wanted to consolidate my primary hunting rifle battery, and to be able to use heavier bullets than the .35s allowed. So I sold off both .35s and got a barrel for my Blaser in 9.3x62 (I shoot 286-grain bullets at 2350 fps), and later bought a .376 Steyr Scout companion to my .308 Steyr Scout (300-grain bullets at 2300 fps). The .376 went to Africa on my second hunt and performed spectacularly on game from 12 yards (nyala) to 150 yards (waterbuck).

The 9.3x62 is a blown out, shoulder moved forward and necked up standard Mauser case ( elongated,~ 06 lenght ). The Whelen is just a necked up �06. This means the 9.3x62 has more case capacity. This is also the reason why its more difficult to make those cases from �06 than Whelen cases. IIRC the 9.3x62 has even more case capacity than the .35 Whelen improved.

Plus, the 9.3 was from beginning designed for heavy and dangerous game, so the bullets are usually rather "hard". As they are also rather long and heavyweight and have a twist to match those bullets I prefer the 9.3.

I doubt the .35 Whelen surpasses the venerable �06 when used with 200 and 220 grain bullets.

Hermann

You can get Woodleigh 310gr bullets in fmj or softpoints for the Whelen. You guys are blowing smoke, the Whelen is the more versatile of the 2 cartridges.

And the 9.3 X 62 can be loaded with Woodleigh 320 grain softs and solids (the .360 No. 2 Nitro Express bullet) - which it will stabilize better than the typical Whelen barrel will the 310 grain Woodleigh (the .400/.350 Nitro Express bullet) because the 9.3 is designed for heavier bullets than the Whelen. The 9.3 is the more versatile of the two.
--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

.35 Whelen - 110 grains to 300 grains. That is quite a range of bullets to use. What is the range of the 9.3?

When it all comes down to it. It just does not matter! An animal never knows if it is hit by a bullet at 2,600 fps or 2,500 fps, .35 or .366 in diameter, 3,300 foot pounds or 3,100 foot pounds. You still have to hit it.