Chuck: your challenge prompted me to do a little bit of research. Don't claim that it's exhaustive but I found it interesting. As to whether the WSM can provide equal velocities with less powder, this is Hornady data(5th Edition for the WM, and from shortmags.com for the WSM)

for 180gr bullets:

WSM max load of H4350: 62.5 gr gives 2950 fps
WM max load of H4350: 69.5 gr gives 2900 fps

WSM max load of H4831: 70.6 gr gives 2950 fps
WM max load of H4831: 74.3 gr gives 2900 fps

Now before you jump on me too hard. I know this isn't "proof" of anything and I understand there could be lots of variables in play (barrels, pressures, etc.) And I don't even have a dog in this fight...don't own a rifle in either caliber.....just presenting a little data that I found interesting and seems to support the theory that the WSM can produce equal velocity with less powder (who knows about the pressure!).

Chuck, I didn't get back online until today but, I believe the other guys answered your question.

If you had done experimenting w/ both cartridges, as I have, You will find the same results.

If you dont belive me get a copy of last months Petersons hunting Mag. They have a good write up in that issue about the new short mags. I have seen write-ups in several other mags too. If that's not enough, go buy a 300 wsm and chrony a few loads. Then, chrony a few of the 300 win. You will soon find what we are saying to be true.

It is only logical to believe that a short, fat cart. is more eff. than a long case. The short case gets ignited faster and more equally than the longer case which provides the eff. and less deviation inbetween rounds.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Sure , if you are only loading to the 2900 fps range , the smaller WSM case will win the the efficiency contest .

But if you want to compare maximum safe velocities out of each case , with the SAME PRESSURES , the same barrel length , and optimum power choice for each , the larger case will win every time ; end of story .

At present , the WSM factory loads and loading data are pushed to the hilt , while the older WM is throttled back some .

This has a few folks fooled into thinking a smaller case will produce the same velocity as a bigger case .

It's just not going to happen , if all is held equal .

The larger case will achieve higher velocities. However if we are talking about efficiency, the Win Mag will require more powder per fps than the WSM. I've loaded the Win and WSM to the same maximum pressure levels and the WSM required less powder to get to a given velocity. And I was using the same powder -RL-22. With a quicker powder the WSM pulls even further ahead.
It is almost always true that the larger the case the less efficient it is. Compare 308 to 30-06, 416rem to 416 Rigby, etc. etc. etc..........DJ

Efficiency... your kidding right? I would be embarrassed to site efficiency as a concern in choosing a cartridge.

sdgunslinger, exactly. Also, you have to remember no two barrels are alike. The only way you might overcome this is to chamber a barrel for the WM test and then rechamber the same barrel for the WSM leaving throat dimensions the same. But even differing chamber dimensions will create different pressure curves. Then there is the issue of barrel wear..... I just don't believe that these things can be stated as blatant fact.

Smallfry, I agree with you. A petty difference in the amount of powder burned nothing to get worked up over in the name of "efficiency". It's more like stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime.

AD

chuck, gunslinger, and others that agree w/ them

Apparently you guys do not shoot for accuracy or reload for that matter. If you did, You would know that we are just stating facts from experience.

You guys are probably the type that say "I have a 300 win and nothings better." Well, maybe one day you will get off your pedistal and start believing cold hard facts that us shooters gather.

As to the quote "sure, if your shooting in the 2900 fps range," All I can say is to get reloading manual out (Oh, I forgot, you may not have one) and look at the eff. all the way up into the 3250 fps range. I will take my 300 wsm and burn a 300 win grn for grn any day. Sure, you can hold a little more powder but, why worry when you can use a smaller case, get the same speed w/ less powder, get more accuracy, and save a little powder. Some people just never catch on.

Sorry, The Proof is in the Puddin'

Reloader

If you want a small accurate .30 cal get a .308 win, if you want a powerfull .30 get a 300 win mag, if you want riduculous velocity get a 30-378. The WSM has no place in my gun safe!

Thank you for that insightful post, ignore mode ON.

I have a 300WSM, love it! Alot !

Never had a 300WM to compare it to.

.500 groups from a $350.00 Savage mod. 10, whats not to like ? Just adjusted the trigger a little, and installed the scope mounts.

Travis F.

Pretty much all of the differences between the calibers we use are small. But half the fun of being a gun nut is being able to pry the last bit of performance out of a cartridge/gun combo. All of this experimentation has greatly improved the powders, bullets, brass,barrels etc. that we all use. I could have done every bit of hunting I've ever done with cartridges designed before the 19th century but I just think it's more fun to try different things. I realize that everyone doesn't have the same means and so if you can't afford any thing new or just don't care to that's alright -just let us gun nuts have our fun...........DJ

What a stupid, idiotic set of assumptions and generalizations..........

AD

Allen,

Are you still shooting the 180 gr Nosler Partition Protected Point in your 300 Winchester Magnums?

dlpaintless - I will be using the factory optilok mounts and by the way they are extras over the price of the rifle. I will be surprised of they don't hold up as they are rail mounted and very secure. I have them on my 7mm rem Mag and have had no problems with them. The rifle here in Aus has been discounted by Beretta Australia and the Stainless synthetic costs $815-00 Australian at the moment which is about $610-00 U.S. Thats cheaper than a Ruger, Weatherby Vanguard, CZ, Howa or any of the others.

Reloader - I will initially be using one of the locally made ADI powders as imported powders are not easy or cheap to get but thanks for that - I will bear Rel 19 in mind if I have hassles.

CZ - One of the reasons I went for the 300 was the new range of Woodleighs available and they make especially for the 300 win Mag velocities and I saw somewhere recently they are even making a 220gn solid. So I will definately give them a go - probably starting with the 180gn protected point as a good all rounder. I have bought some factory 150 Winchester ballistic tips (not cheap) for red deer hunting to start off with as I have little time at the moment to do any load developement due work. But that will change.

Reloader



I did get a good chuckle out of your post and your "cold hard facts ".



Thanks for that anyways , son . (grin)

MLG,

You should be well pleased w/ your set up. Im sure there are several powders that will shoot great out of this cart. I just cant get past R19 and R22. w/ those one hole groups, I think I am going to stick w/ Alliant.

Stopped by the gun store and looked at those T3s, nice smooth bolt. The scope mount was kind of diff. but, If those rings are good quality, they should hold up great.

Good Luck w/ your new rifle.

Reloader

Reloader, that RL22 seems to be a fine choice for heavy bullets with the .300WSM. My accuracy with moly coated 190 gr Match Kings is incredible. My next project is with moly coated 180 gr Ballistic Tips and with both RL22 and H4350 with both WLR and WLRM primers. I believe I can develop a load with the Ballistic Tips that will as accurate as the 190 gr Sierra Match King when wind drift is not a factor.

As most here likely are aware RL22 was selected after DoD testing for the A-191 cartridge (.300WinMag, 190gr MatchKing). What the nay-sayers wish to ignore is that FCC uses 7.1 gr more powder to achieve the same velocity in the same length Mike Rock barrel as my .300WSM, but much chamber experimentation was done with govt WinMag rifles to achieve that velocity at SAAMI max pressure.


There is one fact that is not stated in discussions of equal velocity for equal barrel length and efficiencey. The bullet from the WSM has more barrel travel for the same length barrel.

For those who wish to remain unknowing, it is your choice to believe or disbelieve what myself and others here are stating in regard to the .300WSM. As I have said, I have owned both, hunted with both, reloaded for both, have shot the .300WinMag in competition and will do likewise with my .300WSM this Spring. Neither will dispatch game that the other will not. With the extra stiffness of the short action and the easily achieved ES in single digits the WSM has an accuracy advantage that must be noted.

I have handloaded both rounds extensively and shot them in my lab and at the range. They are essentially equivalent in the field, and when loaded properly, equivalent at the range.

HOWEVER, for flexibility with accuracy, the 300 WSM is far better than the 300 Winnie. All this means is that the 300 WSM shoots reduced loads as well as it shoots full loads, so if you want a .308 caliber rifle that can be a 308, 30-06 OR 300 Win, its 300 WSM hands down.

For example, my 308 Win duplication load in the 300 WSM is 42 grs RX7 witha Hornady 150 gr SP at 2880 fps. Accuracy is under 1/2 MOA.

Are we trying to ask the poor guy whether he's a hunter or a benchrest shooter? If what you want to do is put meat in the freezer I am unable to come up with any justification for claiming a superiority of one versus the other. Frankly, I feel that the old .300 H&H with its grease-slick feed is better than either. However, if you are more interested in the joy of shooting than running up hill and down dale then the technicalities of the question could likely go on for ever. As we often say over on the African Forum, no animal will be able to tell the difference!

Well

I would go for the 300 win, easy to find brass and loaded ammo regardles in which galaxy you are.


/ JOHAN

Gosh, then that must mean that the .300 Savage is the full equal of the .30-06.........

AD

Never said that, I said a 30-06 is a more practical choice for hunting. Is there realistically anything you have killed with a 300 Win. Mag. that you could not have with a 30-06 ?

Skinner,

Not a good gambit with Allen.

Try this instead.

If a hunter was loading the 180 Partition in the 300 WM he might have to use the Protected Point due to the design defect in the neck length of that cartridge and that long bullet vrs the magazine box length restriction.

Of course then a 300 WSM starting a Partition out with the normal tip will exceed the 300 WM's velocity at 340 yds and the 30-06 will exceed the 300 WM at 475 yds and drift a lot less also. It's the wind that gets you. I used 3100 fps for the 300 WM, 3000 fps for the 300 WSM and 2800 muzzle velocity for the 30-06.

It's all just fun anyway. As Ray says "at some range every 300 magnum becomes a 30-06" of course he might have been thinking of the 300 HH which does not have that problem.

Skinner, I would go a step further and state that any animal that can be killed with a .30 magnum can be killed with a .308Win. The magnum does extend the distance to which the feat can be accomplished but there are very few riflemen who can take advantage of that.

I also believe that the slight accuracy advantage of the WSM is of very little consequence as even fewer riflemen will notice the difference. But the question that must be asked is: What sort of riflemen would knowly select the less accurate rifle?

Skinner, I can think of episodes with elk, moose, African lion, cape buffalo, eland, mule deer, pronghorn, sheep, Coues deer, etc. that made me happy that I was packing a .300 Win. Mag. instead of a .30-06.

Actually, I started hunting with a .30-06 at age fifteen for mule deer and elk here in Oregon. I bought my first .300 Win. Mag. in 1980 and started hunting seriously with that cartridge in 1994. In my experience is whacks stuff noticably harder than does the .30-06 at all ranges, and shoots flatter to boot. I shoot 180 gr. Partitions in my .30-06 at 2740 fps., and 180 gr. Partitions out of my .300 Win. Mag. at 3075 fps. That 300+ fps. difference surely ain't hay. In fact in makes the .300 Win. Mag. more versatile that the .30-06 is. It could be no other way....

Savage99, once more you speak of things of which you are not truly familiar. That "short-neck" alarum is an old wives' tale from the 1960s. I have discussed this issue with many .300 Win. Mag. experts over the years, including guys who have literally shot 95% of the world's big game species with this cartridge, as well as those who've used it extensively in high-power competition, including 1,000 yard competitors, one of whom used it to win the Wimbleton in 1976. Without exception, all of these guys have laughed when I brought the "short-neck" issue up, and personally, I have never had one experience - out of thousands of rounds fired and much hunting - that would lead me to question neck length with the .300 Win. Mag. In fact the forward shoulder and short neck increase cases capacity, and likely enhances the accuracy of the cartridge.

Here's one more thing you need to understand: Neck length or magazine box length has absolutely nothing to do with my use of the 180 gr. Protected Point Partition in the .300 Win. Mag. I just happen to have a rifle that shoots that bullet very well, and I've been running on the same batch of ammo featuring that bullet since 2001.

As that batch of handloads has been depleted, I have worked up another lot of ammo with the regular 180 gr. Partition Spire Point and Winchester WXR powder that is astoundingly accurate, so I'll be using this combo for a while. In fact, I used the regular 180 Partition for several years running in my old .300 Win. Mag. (which has a shorter box than my current rifles do), and neck length in no way inhibited the use of that bullet.

It seems that old nonsense never dies..........

AD

If a short neck , deep bullet seating , and a short magazine box are big problems for the .300 Winchester , then those things are also certainly problems for the short WSM case and the short action rifles it's chambered for .........

Short necks and other related issues only are problems with cartridges introduced circa 1963!

AD

Allen,

Here is a photo of the latest Nosler Manual #5 dated April 2002. Perhaps you should call Nosler up and tell them of your expertise!

If you have a M-70 .300 W , it's a relatively simple job to lenghthen the magazine to 3.6 inch , cut back the bolt stop , and throat out the barrel . Then the COL becomes a non issue and your handloads will beat the WSM case by an even greater margin than before (grin) . If you are shooting a M-700 , all you need is the throating job........

Savage 99, you truly are a dim bulb!



Funny, my 30-06 shoots "regular" 180 Partition's as well as the Protected Points. Fact is, after firing a round or two the standard Partition's look like the Protected Point from battering in the magazine so I now prefer to start out with the PP's as all bullets in the mag will have the same BC/POI... but you have too much bench time and too little field time to figure that one out!



As to the 300 WM vs. 300 WSM... the 300 WM will shoot 50 to 100 fps faster with all bullet weight's, fantasy to the contrary. "Efficiency" is the mantra of those that don't like recoil but are unwilling to admit it. Heck, in terms of pure efficiency (if it can even be quantified) I'd put the 300 WSM and 300 WM right up at the top... especially when you compare them to the 300 WBY, 300 RUM and 30-378 WBY!



My experience leads me to believe the average factory 300 WSM stoked with factory ammo will out-shoot the average factory 300 WM shooting factory ammo. The gun Co's tend to cut pretty sloppy chambers for belted mags. Also, the WSM's tooling is relatively new and that can only be good for accuracy, plus WSM factory ammo is max which really isn't the case for WM stuff. Too, the WSM's big, ample shoulder can only be a help for precise headspacing which helps accuracy. Too, because WSM brass doesn't have the first-fire "stretch" that belted brass has, brass life is longer for those that care. So, if I were shooting factory stuff only in a factory rifle I'd go with the WSM... all bets are off for a custom job, in which case the 300 WM is faster and flatter with fabulous accuracy if correctly assmebled.



Me, I'll have a 300 WSM in Kimber's 8400 stainless/synthetic when they come out as a rifle ready to go under 7.75 lbs has heap-big appeal to me... if the same rifle were available in 300 WM I'd sooner have the WM.



My thoughts on this spring morning...

Hey Sav 99



Since you are fond of Bob Hagel , why don't you dig out his book and post up his load chart for the .300 Winchester.



Show some of these kids the true potential of the Winchester case when loaded to the hilt , like the WSM case currently is ..........?

Brad,



Insults will not make a point. They just show the lack of thinking and content a person has. Lighten up ok?



SD,



Hagel loaded everything way up it's for sure but he did not load the 300 WSM so there is no data in his book for that cartridge!



The data I used was from a compulation of handbooks with working loads and I find that the 300 WM is 100 fps faster than a 300 WSM. What's the problem with that?

A few get off topic when all we are doing is having fun with incremental details.

Savage99, the Protected Point was originally designed with the .300 Winchester in mind back in the 1960s as a way of increasing case capacity, yet retaining the same bullet weight. The neck of the case holds the same surface area, no matter the bullet employed. That original Protected Point (plus other .308" diameter Partitions of that era) also came complete with relief grooves to better assist in holding the bullet in place, particularly for the .300 Win. Mag. In time, those relief grooves were found to be unnecessary and were dropped from production, as was the 165 gr. Protected Point. The current 180 gr. Protected Point remains, simply because some rifles shoot it better than than the Partition SP, and because it's a semi-popular bullet. Do you have any sort of foggy notion as to how many hunters shoot the regular 180 gr. Partition in the .300 Win. Mag. without a hitch, year-in and year-out?

You say I should plead my case to Nosler. Maybe you should! Tell them (and don't spare the details!) about how you know all about the .300 Win. Mag., yet you've never used it! I'm sure you'll have John Nosler himself hanging on the edge of his seat with his mouth wide open listening to your incredible depth of knowlege and experience.......

Quite honestly, you're so full of INEXPERIENCE, supposition, and regurgitated ignorance that every time you pipe-up on these threads concerning subjects of which you have no first-hand knowlege you dig your own hole just a little bit deeper, and denigrate your own reputation just a little bit more around here. And evidently you're either too hard-headed (or something!) to see it. And of all things you'll go into a subject such as the .300 Win. Mag. without any first knowlege of it on game - or even on paper - yet you still somehow have the audacity to think you can argue on equal footing with those who have! Talk about self-delusional!

AD

Allen,



I really don't want to get into insults. So I am going to leave that low road for you. I will not go there.



I will continue to argue facts and post them up. I am discussing specific technical points and making the points with hard published facts.



I made the point that the 300 WM is less than perfect design over the years. It still is. But it works and if some beast is in front of a bullet propelled by a 300 WM then it's going to get smacked really hard.



Shoot what you want for Pete's sake but post facts and not opinion.



To add that I really got you good, didn't I, with that picture from the Nosler manual!

Savage 99, "published" does not in any way make them facts, and don't worry, we all know who is posting unsubstantiated opinion.



Chuck