The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Case size versus barrel lengthGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
I've always thought it's worth while matching case size to barrel length when choosing a chambering for a particular rifle. I see Mannlicher style full stock rifles with 20" barrels offered in 30-06 and 270 chambering and I think what's the point? A 308W based cartridge or an 8x57 based cartridge would give about the same velocity, the faster burn rate powders preferred by these smaller cases would have a more complete burn rate in a 20" barrel than the medium and slower burn rate powders preferred in the larger capacity cases, and you are burning less powder for similar velocity and not blowing it out the end of the barrel. For the same reasons I think the 30-06 capacity cartridges are better suited to minimum 22" to 24" barrels and larger magnum capacity cartridges are better suited to 24" barrels or longer to take advantage of a more complete burn of their preferred powders and give the full increase in velocity. What are other peoples thoughts and experiences? | ||
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| One of Us |
the shorter barrels still make better use of the slower powders. you just end up with a higher muzzle pressure. barrel lengths are kind of subjective and people use them for various reasons. I'm not a fan of 20" barrels on a 308 but I'm okay with them on the larger diameter cases like the 358 win. the gas volume to bore ratio just works out better. the shorter barrels sure are a lot easier to carry through the thick stuff or over long distances though. | |||
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One of Us |
 A good ,many years ago I hunted with a friend who used a Mod 760, 30-06 with an 18" barrel. It was light to carry and deadly.  This guy was the best athletic hunter I've ever seen and the 18" barrel always got game. roger  Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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one of us |
Just little test in QuickLoad: .308 Winchester, Norma Oryx 200 gr Calculated for 60k PSI limit, 115 % compressed load limit, first 12 results, 25" barrel:
53 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 60 106,5 46,6 3,02 2652 100,0 60000 7400 1,235 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 105,7 46,3 3,00 2636 100,0 60000 7365 1,240 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17 105,7 46,3 3,00 2636 100,0 60000 7365 1,240 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 109,1 48,5 3,14 2627 99,1 60000 7717 1,240 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 114,0 47,3 3,07 2624 100,0 60000 7011 1,245 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 62 108,6 47,5 3,08 2613 99,7 60000 7311 1,255 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511 107,1 47,6 3,09 2596 98,4 60000 7465 1,253 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 110,7 47,7 3,09 2595 98,4 60000 7454 1,253 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 115,0 50,1 3,25 2593 96,5 55392 8065 1,281 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 104,6 46,2 2,99 2587 97,7 60000 7396 1,257 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 104,6 46,2 2,99 2587 97,7 60000 7396 1,257 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 110,4 45,6 2,95 2587 99,5 60000 7201 1,258 ! Near Maximum !
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| one of us |
.308 Winchester, Norma Oryx 200 gr Calculated for 60k PSI, 20" barrel:
53 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 60 106,5 46,6 3,02 2538 100,0 60000 9804 1,074 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 105,7 46,3 3,00 2523 99,8 60000 9731 1,079 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17 105,7 46,3 3,00 2523 99,8 60000 9731 1,079 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 114,0 47,3 3,07 2515 100,0 60000 9314 1,083 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 109,1 48,5 3,14 2509 98,0 60000 10052 1,078 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 62 108,6 47,5 3,08 2500 99,0 60000 9607 1,092 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511 107,1 47,6 3,09 2481 97,2 60000 9694 1,089 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 110,7 47,7 3,09 2480 97,2 60000 9680 1,089 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 110,4 45,6 2,95 2475 98,7 60000 9420 1,094 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 110,5 45,6 2,95 2475 98,7 60000 9417 1,094 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 109,9 45,9 2,97 2475 98,8 60000 9414 1,106 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 104,6 46,2 2,99 2473 96,4 60000 9604 1,093 ! Near Maximum !
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| one of us |
The same for 15" barrel:
53 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 60 106,5 46,6 3,02 2374 99,4 60000 14005 0,905 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 105,7 46,3 3,00 2360 98,7 60000 13784 0,908 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17 105,7 46,3 3,00 2360 98,7 60000 13784 0,908 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 114,0 47,3 3,07 2358 99,6 60000 13384 0,912 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 109,1 48,5 3,14 2341 95,6 60000 13984 0,907 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 62 108,6 47,5 3,08 2338 97,3 60000 13532 0,920 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511 107,1 47,6 3,09 2318 94,8 60000 13459 0,915 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 110,7 47,7 3,09 2317 94,8 60000 13439 0,915 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 110,4 45,6 2,95 2316 96,9 60000 13200 0,920 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 110,5 45,6 2,95 2315 96,9 60000 13196 0,920 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 109,9 45,9 2,97 2315 96,9 60000 13246 0,932 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 107,1 45,7 2,96 2312 96,7 60000 13304 0,927 ! Near Maximum !
BTW ReloadSwiss RS 60, RL-17 and Eicho 17 are the same powder, only "lot to lot" difference. | |||
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| One of Us |
Similar tests have been done using short barreled handguns. The intuitive part that faster powders would yield faster velocities than slower powders turned out to be incorrect. Max charges of both fast and slow yielded high velocities. The test I recall most, primarily because it directly affected my carry firearm was loading for a 357 in a 2.5" barrel revolver. | |||
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| one of us |
Lots of things are going on here and the varibles are many that create the proper answer, and to what extent for instance a 30-06 with an 18 inch barrel is in effect a .308 Win. A 270 loses almost no velocity with 130 and 150 gr. bullets for whatever reason..I suspect in all cases it depends on the powder you use..H4831 in the 06 and 270 losses very little FPS and in many cases none at all..The old faster powder holds velocity up their is just not true in any since of the word..it doesn't in all cases, but will in some calibers of lesser powder space it seems.. One thing Im sure of is take all the specs and yakit yack by experts out there and grab your chronograph, that will be the only thing that tells the facts plain and simple..Its amazing how that machine voids conversation in most cases when it comes to gun gab..and the printed page.. If you ever doubt that look at the difference in max loads from one reloading book to another and they are are quoted on these blogs daily.. Todays chronograpeh are to had for a hundred dollars or less and most are accurate enough to get one by. All that said I still concur that as a general rule a long barrel gets one more velocity most of the time, but one can work with powders and bullets and play with all the figures out there. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Jiri, can you run the same numbers with a 30-06 example? Bartche, no arguments here, a smaller lighter gun is way more handy to carry all day and over rough terrain. On the flip side, when you are fatigued after a long hunt or when your heart is pumping and you're breathing heavy after a chase, a heavier gun is way more steady on the target than a short light one when it comes to the crunch. When sitting in camp contemplating whether to lug the double through the bush all day or leave it behind in favour of the light weight lever gun, the decision to carry the heavier double always paid off. I don't mind admitting that I can be a bit off with the lever gun when fatigue kicks in......but back to the topic at hand, would your athletic friend have done as well with a 308 in the chamber of that 18" barrel and would the velocity have been within 50 fps or less? | |||
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| one of us |
Sorry, previous data was calculated for 200 gr Oryx, not 165 gr (already corrected above). Now the same, but .30-06, also 60k PSI (max pressure). 25"
75 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP 108,4 60,2 3,90 2790 99,4 60000 9864 1,230 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560 109,9 59,7 3,87 2769 96,8 60000 9962 1,231 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 60 98,1 54,8 3,55 2761 100,0 60000 8726 1,228 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO 110,3 62,4 4,04 2760 95,3 60000 9979 1,236 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 70 100,9 57,2 3,71 2758 100,0 60000 9172 1,228 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA15 110,3 59,3 3,84 2755 98,5 60000 9650 1,236 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22 110,3 59,3 3,84 2755 98,5 60000 9650 1,236 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 110,3 59,3 3,84 2755 98,5 60000 9650 1,236 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester WXR 113,2 59,6 3,86 2754 98,4 60000 9658 1,237 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP15 113,2 59,6 3,86 2754 98,4 60000 9658 1,237 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 12 112,1 63,6 4,12 2750 97,5 60000 9758 1,226 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 517 112,2 63,7 4,13 2749 97,4 60000 9769 1,226 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
20"
75 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP 108,4 60,2 3,90 2648 98,3 60000 12891 1,077 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 60 98,1 54,8 3,55 2633 100,0 60000 11575 1,074 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560 109,9 59,7 3,87 2625 94,9 60000 12873 1,077 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 70 100,9 57,2 3,71 2623 99,7 60000 12120 1,074 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO 110,3 62,4 4,04 2615 93,1 60000 12856 1,081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA15 110,3 59,3 3,84 2615 97,0 60000 12538 1,081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22 110,3 59,3 3,84 2615 97,0 60000 12538 1,081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 110,3 59,3 3,84 2615 97,0 60000 12538 1,081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester WXR 113,2 59,6 3,86 2613 96,8 60000 12541 1,081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP15 113,2 59,6 3,86 2613 96,8 60000 12541 1,081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 97,2 54,2 3,51 2613 100,0 60000 11503 1,081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Elcho 17 97,2 54,2 3,51 2613 100,0 60000 11503 1,081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
15"
75 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 60 98,1 54,8 3,55 2444 100,0 60000 16718 0,910 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP 108,4 60,2 3,90 2442 95,6 60000 17970 0,913 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 70 100,9 57,2 3,71 2427 98,0 60000 17126 0,909 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Elcho 17 97,2 54,2 3,51 2424 99,7 60000 16546 0,915 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 97,2 54,2 3,51 2424 99,7 60000 16546 0,915 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560 109,9 59,7 3,87 2420 91,3 60000 17712 0,912 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22 110,3 59,3 3,84 2414 94,0 60000 17374 0,915 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 110,3 59,3 3,84 2414 94,0 60000 17374 0,915 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA15 110,3 59,3 3,84 2414 94,0 60000 17374 0,915 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP15 113,2 59,6 3,86 2412 93,8 60000 17366 0,916 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester WXR 113,2 59,6 3,86 2412 93,8 60000 17366 0,916 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO 110,3 62,4 4,04 2411 89,2 60000 17632 0,915 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
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| one of us |
Just for fun, 30" .30-06:
75 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP 108,4 60,2 3,90 2897 99,9 60000 7886 1,376 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560 109,9 59,7 3,87 2878 98,0 60000 8043 1,379 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO 110,3 62,4 4,04 2869 96,7 60000 8078 1,383 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-22 110,3 59,3 3,84 2861 99,3 60000 7755 1,384 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA15 110,3 59,3 3,84 2861 99,3 60000 7755 1,384 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 110,3 59,3 3,84 2861 99,3 60000 7755 1,384 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester WXR 113,2 59,6 3,86 2860 99,2 60000 7766 1,385 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP15 113,2 59,6 3,86 2860 99,2 60000 7766 1,385 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 70 100,9 57,2 3,71 2858 100,0 60000 7284 1,377 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 12 112,1 63,6 4,12 2857 98,6 60000 7861 1,375 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 517 112,2 63,7 4,13 2857 98,5 60000 7873 1,375 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 60 98,1 54,8 3,55 2857 100,0 60000 6935 1,376 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
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one of us |
the handling is more important than velocity. I have a .308 Winchester in 26 inch barrel and one in 18.5 in a Remington 600. If I am hunting timber. I take the 600, on a stand I take the 26 inch Sendaro. I also have a 600 in 350 Remington Magnum, very hard to beat as a bear gun in my book. Again, I will take the 250 to 310 grain bullet weight over speed any day on a bear at 100 yards or less. | |||
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| One of Us |
Jiri, interesting, it looks like the larger case still gives 100 to 130 fps increase in velocity in a 20" barrel so still worth chambering according to your numbers. Thanks for taking the time to post your info. buckeye, I agree that a handy rifle is good along with balance and fit when you throw it to your shoulder. I've included velocity in the equation purely for terminal bullet performance and achieving maximum expansion and or penetration in game. For me being able to anchor game quickly and humanely is the most important thing, everything else comes second. | |||
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| one of us |
Rhodes: Something more for you . . . .300 WSM, 60k PSI, 20"
105 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570 113,3 76,6 4,96 2799 92,9 60000 15866 1,092 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-33 113,5 79,9 5,18 2783 93,1 60000 15666 1,092 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 110,0 70,1 4,54 2768 100,0 60000 13934 1,095 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 112,6 72,1 4,67 2767 97,8 60000 14708 1,104 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP30 112,6 72,1 4,67 2767 97,8 60000 14708 1,104 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 101,9 68,1 4,42 2763 99,3 60000 14367 1,104 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 106,5 72,9 4,72 2753 97,6 60000 14390 1,091 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 106,4 72,8 4,71 2752 97,7 60000 14370 1,091 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 103,6 67,8 4,40 2751 96,8 60000 14542 1,101 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 80 115,0 79,9 5,18 2742 93,0 57490 15469 1,111 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 103,9 70,8 4,59 2742 95,2 60000 14589 1,106 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 95,1 64,9 4,21 2740 100,0 60000 13410 1,097 ! Near Maximum !
.300 Win Mag (Norma cases), 60k PSI, 20"
139 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ADI AR 2218 109,0 90,8 5,89 2862 94,9 60000 19240 1,088 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N570 105,2 86,8 5,62 2854 95,0 60000 18858 1,110 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 80 108,4 92,0 5,96 2851 96,1 60000 18682 1,106 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-33 105,7 90,8 5,89 2844 95,4 60000 18659 1,110 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 217 111,6 85,9 5,57 2843 99,9 60000 17668 1,123 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2225 108,9 85,6 5,55 2843 100,0 60000 17127 1,102 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo 108,9 85,6 5,55 2843 100,0 60000 17127 1,102 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870 111,6 90,2 5,84 2840 96,8 60000 18365 1,112 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 99,2 82,8 5,36 2806 98,9 60000 16968 1,107 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 99,0 82,7 5,36 2805 98,9 60000 16937 1,107 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 101,9 79,3 5,14 2805 100,0 60000 16116 1,110 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 104,1 81,4 5,28 2802 98,8 60000 17205 1,123 ! Near Maximum !
You can see, there are still loads with 100 % powder burned and good velocity. Jiri | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks Jiri, the magnums still have a hell of an edge from the shorter barrel going by your numbers. | |||
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| One of Us |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rhodes: Jiri, can you run the same numbers with a 30-06 example? Bartche, no arguments here, a smaller lighter gun is way more handy to carry all day and over rough terrain. .but back to the topic at hand, would your athletic friend have done as well with a 308 in the chamber of that 18" barrel Knowing him, the answer is yes. The results would have been dead game if he were using an old slide action .30 or 35 Rem. or Ray's 250-3000. I myself used to do rather good with a 18" barreled 6.5 Carcano. To me the real disadvantage of the short barreled is the short sight radius when using open sights. With practice, however, even this draw back can be minimized, and was. roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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| one of us |
Yes, but look at muzzle pressure too. Jiri | |||
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| One of Us |
Holy crap....hadn't noticed that. Heavy barrel needed to tame recoil AND pressure . | |||
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one of us |
I refer 24" or longer barrels for balance. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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| one of us |
Not trolling, but what is the problem with relatively high muzzle pressure. Seems it would translate as increased noise, and make a brake more effective. The QL charts demonstrate slow powders and higher case capacities both result in higher velocities at all barrel lengths. Is there some other negative to higher muzzle residual pressure? | |||
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| one of us |
Thanks, Alf. Hadn't considered shot-shot variation as result of higher muzzle pressure. Is there a specific muzzle pressure (or range) that correlates with least shot-shot velocity variation? Eg., .308 Win optimal length 20" w/_____ muzzle pressure, or .300 Win optimal length 24" w/_____ muzzle pressure? | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Case size versus barrel length
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