THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM MEDIUM BORE RIFLE FORUM

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Rifles  Hop To Forums  Medium Bore Rifles    Are high powered scope the reason people are shooting so far?
Page 1 2 

Moderators: Paul H
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Are high powered scope the reason people are shooting so far?
 Login/Join
 
One of Us
posted
When thinking about the answer to the .270 used for elk, I began to wonder, is the reason for the current rage of long range hunter/snipers due to the fact that so many guns are sporting Variables pushing 16-18 power, "max" scopes. Back in the 50's when my grandfather made the trek to Wyoming for his annual elk hunt, his 300 Savage wore a 2.5 power scope. Many of the old gun rags I have read from the 50's, 60's and 70's, a large amount of the guns had 2.5 to possibly a 4 power scope even on the old 300 H&H magnums. Alot of the guns of the day had iron sights and peep sights which would limit shots in bad light and make the animals at 300-400 yards a tough target to hit. I know that shooting the ten ring on the 13" black center at 200 yds with the Garand is alot tougher than with a with my 7 mag on 10X. Just a thought. An oh my would an Elk look close on 10X.
 
Posts: 656 | Location: Nebraska | Registered: 06 January 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I think the wide spread use of range-finders is a major cause as well. With some of the special reticles available and known ranges hunters are more inclined to try longer shots.
 
Posts: 3073 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: 11 November 2004Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Snellstrom
posted Hide Post
Maybe higher powers but glass quality is a big help too. The widespread use of rangefinders are huge in the long distance shooting realm.
I'll take some long shots but everything has to be right and what I call a long shot may not be that far to some.
I've shot a 3-9 variable Leupold since 1976 and I find myself carrying it on 3 power always and almost always cranking it to 9 for almost every shot. If I were limited to 2.5 power for the big end of magnification I would feel like I was "shooting at" a deer instead of picking a very specific spot on a Deer, Elk, Antelope, Bighorn Sheep, Mountain Goat etc. I find myself aiming at a VERY specific spot on an animal like a shadowline, tuft of hair, etc. and if I'm taking a 425 yard shot I want the same detail to aim at. powerful glass can be good withing reason but you still must practice, practice, practice and use a generous dose of common sense and respect for those animals.
I love having 2 or 3 as my low end just in case I walk right into one but usually after about 10 power there are some trade offs in my eyes for hunting scopes.
 
Posts: 5604 | Location: Eastern plains of Colorado | Registered: 31 October 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
All my scopes but 3 are 4x.It took me a long time to get used to them.I have a mark on my eyebrow from a bushnell.Like he said rangefinders and time limits on some hunts might be more of a reason.
 
Posts: 1371 | Location: Plains,TEXAS | Registered: 14 January 2008Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
People are shooting further and further away because they are mostly to lazy to get off their ass and learn how to hunt!
All this crap about shooting elk 900 yards away on TV is BS. If they showed all the bad shots the show would be laughed off the air.
Ok, I vented and am doneSmiler


My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost.
 
Posts: 6653 | Location: Wasilla, Alaska | Registered: 22 February 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Alberta Canuck
posted Hide Post
I'd guess both Moorepower and LJS are probably right in their observations.

Back in the '50s and '60s, it was often recommended that nothing higher powered than a 6-X scope ever be used on a hunting rifle for at least a couple of reasons:

1) Higher powers had too small a field of view at the closer ranges and,

2) Folks have a tendency to believe they can hit whatever they can clearly see, which would lead them to shoot at things at distances they hadn't developed adequate shooting skills for...

So, in essence the conventional wisdom was that a higher power scope was a bad deal at both short and long ranges.

None the less, magnification in a scope is like velocity in a rifle bullet...it is sold as the ticket to effective long range killing, whether or not the user has ANY skills. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to determine where that leads.

------------

One of the real unfortunate things about range finders in actual field use is that too many folks think all they have to do is determine the range, then dial it up on their scope and WHAM!...they've got a dead animal to dress.

That, of course is pure ignorance. Not stupidity, just ignorance...being unaware of the facts.

Knowledge of the computed range does not include knowledge of bullet trajectory, or the force with which it hits (or lack of force) or where to hold the crosshairs to hit the desired spot instead of maybe just hitting the animal "somewhere".

It doesn't tell the shooter the sum of all the wind vectors at play, nor does it tell him how the bullet will act at the velocity with which it arrives, nor how it will react to the part of the animal it happens to hit, if any.

In fact it doesn't even note the fact that all instruments that calculate things, like distances, have variable performance from one time to another and are not sonsistently 100% accurate themselves. Temperatures affect voltage/amperage output of batteries, and voltage/amperage variations can affect electronic performance.

The surface of the object being ranged can vary the reflection read by the instrument, etc. If the range finder has a programmed chip, it is also potentially subject to a GIGO problem (garbage in garbage out) with its calculated data.

And so on.

None of that is to say that modern laser range-finders aren't useful. But, it is to say they can't deliver quaranteed shooting accuracy or warranteed kills. Perhaps their best use in some hands would be to tell that particular shooter that the game is far enough away he should not shoot at all!!

Work builds experience. Experience builds knowledge and skills. Knowledge and skill tell a person how far away a particular gun is an effective performer in HIS hands.

Self discipline to use the weapon only within its effective range and power in his hands will make him a sportsman. It all starts with a willingness to do real work to gain applicable experience, not just a willingness to spend money on accessories.


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
There is the equipment and gadgetry to make shots at mind boggling distances and Afganistan has piqued the interest in long range shooting. Most hunters, however, lack the opportunity or self discpline to practice, practice, practice using the equipment. Owning the equipment without the proficiency in it's use is pointless. But then, folks come in constantly asking about putting together a 800 yard elk rifle that never shoot beyond 100 yards in the off season. Go figure. Smiler
Puts me in mind of a young lad hunting on the back side of my place. Had a 4x16x50 scope mounted on his thutty thutty in see through mounts. I asked him how he liked his scope? he thought it was great. It would really help with his long shots. Smiler


Aim for the exit hole
 
Posts: 4348 | Location: middle tenn | Registered: 09 December 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by wasbeeman:
There is the equipment and gadgetry to make shots at mind boggling distances and Afganistan has piqued the interest in long range shooting. Most hunters, however, lack the opportunity or self discpline to practice, practice, practice using the equipment. Owning the equipment without the proficiency in it's use is pointless. But then, folks come in constantly asking about putting together a 800 yard elk rifle that never shoot beyond 100 yards in the off season. Go figure. Smiler
Puts me in mind of a young lad hunting on the back side of my place. Had a 4x16x50 scope mounted on his thutty thutty in see through mounts. I asked him how he liked his scope? he thought it was great. It would really help with his long shots. Smiler


The 30-30 was a marvel in its day. I believe range finders and ballistic programs have made a big difference. Where prudence once dictated a hunter pass on a shot, they now take a crack at it because they are reasonably sure of the range. The real problem with long range shooting is as you've said above, practice, practice, practice.

How many people here hunt with a Sendero, or FN SPR? Those are probably the most common long range rifles readily available, and I'd bet you don't see them in the hunting fields often. I've seen some mighty fine shooting done with a slightly modified Sendero, and I've only met one man that regularly uses a TRG 42, but I have seen a lot of fancy glass over the years...
 
Posts: 3889 | Registered: 12 May 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Windy days make my confidence erode rapidly after a day shooting prairie dogs with my .222 in a 15 mph crosswind. With my 7 mag at 300 yds a 15 mph wind,"common in Nebraska" blows a 3100fps 140 gr bullet over 8", which can be a gut shot. If the Deer is not standing perfectly still, probably a miss or gut shot. FYI yes I really showed those rats at 200 yds who the boss was, they owned me.
 
Posts: 656 | Location: Nebraska | Registered: 06 January 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I'd say impoved optics has resulted in more unskilled marksmen taking shots they do not have the skill to make. And it feeds the other way. The same people buy a 4x16x50 and then start looking for something bigger so the manufacturers make it. So on and so forth. These TV show that glorify extreme range shoots don't help the matter either. I seem them taking shots a game that is so far away they are really don't even know you are there. What's the point? Go buy a cow, tie it up in the back yard and shoot it. Seems just about as much hunting to me.
 
Posts: 60 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 25 December 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
People are shooting further and further away because they are mostly to lazy to get off their ass and learn how to hunt!
All this crap about shooting elk 900 yards away on TV is BS. If they showed all the bad shots the show would be laughed off the air.
Ok, I vented and am doneSmiler


Bingo! I agree 100%.
 
Posts: 6026 | Location: Alberta | Registered: 14 November 2002Reply With Quote
Moderator
Picture of jeffeosso
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
People are shooting further and further away because they are mostly to lazy to get off their ass and learn how to hunt!
All this crap about shooting elk 900 yards away on TV is BS. If they showed all the bad shots the show would be laughed off the air.
Ok, I vented and am doneSmiler

+1000 yards!


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 40051 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
In reality there are any number of excellent reasons for wanting a High Power Scope. Not that it would make any difference at all to those of you who see this thread as another opportunity to Bash long shots.

Granted there are folks who have not done any practicing at long range and have no concept about the effect of wind on a Bullets flight. Likewise, there are people who NEVER bother to do any Practicing at all, are scared of their rifle and wound more Game inside 150yds than ever will the folks shooting at much longer distances. I've had to track them, and a poor shot has little to do with distance, it has to do with the Trigger Yanker.

As for me, I'll continue to use Large Objective - High Power Scopes, whether any of you all ever grasp "Why" or "How" they work to a Hunters advantage. Once again, barsness and the rest of the Hack Gun Rag fools are WRONG!!!

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Laser range finders better scopes with multi reticles in them. More accurate rifles off the self all make it easier to shoot at longer ranges.

At one time a 100 yards was considerd a long ways still is if your shooting bows, smooth bore mustets and plan shotguns with foster slugs.
 
Posts: 19731 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Work builds experience. Experience builds knowledge and skills. Knowledge and skill tell a person how far away a particular gun is an effective performer in HIS hands.

Self discipline to use the weapon only within its effective range and power in his hands will make him a sportsman. It all starts with a willingness to do real work to gain applicable experience, not just a willingness to spend money on accessories.


I do put in the work, do the math, do the testing at ranges to which the velocity indicates will be the maximum effective range for every rifle, and load combination I hunt with. I do it over and over every year. I also only have one rifle with a scope that the power goes over 14X and it was specifically built TO shoot 1K. It has grouped less than 10" at 1150yds, with plenty of horsepower to do in any critter I ever intend to hunt. In fact depending on the bullet used it carries over 2000 ftlbs of energy out to around 1200 yards. Granted I would never choose to shoot at an elk at those ranges, or even half of that, but according to what I have read here, it meets the requirements of what everyone says it needs to have, energy, accuracy, and the fellow who pulls the trigger that has practiced and knows the rifle and the loads capabilities. Funny thing it is a .270 caliber rifle.

Now I personally would not shoot a deer much past 400yds with any rifle I own. I sure wouldn't shoot an elk at that range either. I have hunted and shot long enough to feel comfortable within the limits of every rifle I own. I am not however, so self indulged that I would take a bad shot verses no shot. I hate tracking anything, much less something in rough country. The one time I did manage to go elk hunting I carried three rifles. a 25-06, a .270 Win and a Sendero in 7 mag. I toted each of them into the back country and hunted hard, never even saw an elk. Each was used for the different terrain we hunted, and the 25 did a fine job in my mule deer.

I see folks who post they would not shoot over this and that yardage time and time again, they also brag about folks being lazy who take the shots over what ever range they they feel is too far. Then others chime in "hell your not a hunter if you can sneak up within 100 yards." Well I think just the opposite, I figure your the lazy folks who don't get your ass out of the chair long enough to learn what you and your rifle are truly capable of, and if you did you would find it is further than you think. Also some folks simply cannot get closer at time due to their physical condition. Not being over weight, or even out of shape, but simply having issue with knees or bum legs or what ever handicap they might have. I guess these folks by your definition, should not even be allowed to hunt at all, no matter how well they can shoot, or know their equipment.

And for getting closer, well that might be an option for some people in some places, but it isn't for everyone, in all places. Maybe we should only allow hunting to be conducted where you can always be able to sneak up on game, and that would also eliminate the longer shots as well.

I see more folks who can't shoot well at 100yards every year at the range shooting their rifles, than I do shooting bad groups at 2 or 300 yards. I also believe that more people actually hit and wound game with calibers bigger than they can actually shoot, than folks who shoot something that they feel comfortable with. And no matter how effective it is, there will always be people shooting at game at ranges further than they have any business whether it be 25 yards or 600yards.

Nuff said.


Mike / Tx

 
Posts: 444 | Registered: 19 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of woods
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mke / Tx:
In fact depending on the bullet used it carries over 2000 ftlbs of energy out to around 1200 yards....................Funny thing it is a .270 caliber rifle.



Okay, I got to know what caliber and load that is please


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Okay, I got to know what caliber and load that is please


The caliber is a .270 Allen Magnum, the load is 94grs of W-872 under a 195gr RBBT ULD Wildcat bullet, seated in a necked down and blown out 7mm or 300 RUM case, lit with a Fed 215M primer for a velocity of 3150fps @ 20'.


Left to Right, 150gr Nosler Solid Base, 169.5gr Wildcat RBBT ULD, 195gr Wildcat RBBT ULD


At 500yds accuracy is pretty much like this, shooting off a Harris bi-pod and a folding table.

The white spot is 2.5" in diameter, the impacts are roughly 1/2" deep or so, in the blind flange, and just over 3/4" across.


Mike / Tx

 
Posts: 444 | Registered: 19 June 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Me too!
I thought at first maybe one of Kirby Allans custom mags.
He builds a 270 Allan Mag that slings high bc 169 grainers at about 3250. They have a bc of 740. But a chart of this load shows it has about 1500 ft #'s at 1000 yds. I'm interested to know what has 2000#'s at 1200.
 
Posts: 2002 | Location: central wi | Registered: 13 September 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Well...explained above. Kirby built a 338 for a buddy of mine. It's based off a 338 lapua casing and shoots 300 grain sierras at about 2900. If you put that on a computer they are still doing about 1900 fps at 1000 yds. We haven't shot the gun yet but are looking forward to it. My buddy is trying to put together a range that has that much distance!
 
Posts: 2002 | Location: central wi | Registered: 13 September 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Alberta Canuck
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by woods:
quote:
Originally posted by Mke / Tx:
In fact depending on the bullet used it carries over 2000 ftlbs of energy out to around 1200 yards....................Funny thing it is a .270 caliber rifle.





Okay, I got to know what caliber and load that is please




Me too.

I checked several loading books, and on average about the peak velocity listed for the .270 Weatherby Mag with 150 grain bullets is 3,000 f.p.s. At 1,000 yards that would have a remaining energy of under 600 ft. pds....actually 548 pounds with the Hornady 150 spire point. The 130 gr. spire point at 3,400 fps M.V. would have 465 ft. pds. of energy at 1,000 yards.

There certainly are faster .270 muzzle velocities available than from the .270 Weatherby, but at long ranges the differences in impact velocity get smaller & smaller than the differences in muzzle velocities were. And at 1,200 yards, all velocities from hunting rifles have dropped significantly.

Not that any of that matters. The .270 we were discussing is a .270 Winchester.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Well...explained above. Kirby built a 338 for a buddy of mine. It's based off a 338 lapua casing and shoots 300 grain sierras at about 2900. If you put that on a computer they are still doing about 1900 fps at 1000 yds. We haven't shot the gun yet but are looking forward to it. My buddy is trying to put together a range that has that much distance!


Kraky,
yu won't be disappointed in Kirby's work. He knows how to build a LR rig for sure. Also I know about the distance thing myself. Luckily my good friend and hunting bud, has an 800 acre cotton field just out the back door of their barn, with a big gravel pit burm for a nice backstop out in the middle. We borrowed a laser survey rig and set up a range out to 1 mile, marked every hundred yards to 1K, and every 500 after that. We did drop tests out to 1K then verify the loads. Then using Exbal, you can simply dial up the drops for the ranges, settle the cross hair and touch the 1.5# Jewell and let the fun begin.

I got to be honest, the first time I squared off at a 12" target at 1K, it was a bit intimidating, and after the sun got up a bit, I lost all desire to shoot critters that far. Still in all it will flat out hammer a hog to as far as you feel like reaching out.


Mike / Tx

 
Posts: 444 | Registered: 19 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
For the load stated here the energy at 1200 is according to my load data and verified drops is only 1767, sorry I missed it by a little.

But I can easily hit 3350 with this combo and get the higher numbers, but I would REALLY be pushing the cases, and I don't like to do that. Like it is noted above I can easily get 10 or so loads from a case. With the higher loads I only get around 3-5 loads.


Mike / Tx

 
Posts: 444 | Registered: 19 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Alberta Canuck
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mke / Tx:
quote:
Work builds experience. Experience builds knowledge and skills. Knowledge and skill tell a person how far away a particular gun is an effective performer in HIS hands.

Self discipline to use the weapon only within its effective range and power in his hands will make him a sportsman. It all starts with a willingness to do real work to gain applicable experience, not just a willingness to spend money on accessories.


I do put in the work, do the math, do the testing at ranges to which the velocity indicates will be the maximum effective range for every rifle, and load combination I hunt with. I do it over and over every year. I also only have one rifle with a scope that the power goes over 14X and it was specifically built TO shoot 1K. It has grouped less than 10" at 1150yds, with plenty of horsepower to do in any critter I ever intend to hunt.



Are you having a "wrong side of the bed" day? From the parts of my post and your post quoted above, I don't see where you have any reason to feel offended.

If you have done the work and are operating within ranges and in locations you feel you've found appropriate to your rifle and ability, then I don't see a great problem. Hope your day gets better.


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of woods
posted Hide Post
Then I guess the answer to the OP's question is that technology has advanced. The guns, bullets, powders, calibers and scopes have all advanced to the point where the average distance shooters can shoot is progressing out.

At one extreme is Mike / Tx who can shoot much farther than 99.9% of the rest of us and at the other extreme is the sight-in-once-a-year-shooter who can now shoot reliably to 200 yards because of better equipment. IMO most of us here can certainly shoot accurately much farther than our fathers did. I know my dad had a sporterized 30-06 springfield that he was deadly with at 100 yards but he would have had a hard time shooting accurately at the distances that I can and do.

So IMO it is not only the scopes but all the equipment.


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I believe that there are many reasons that have developed in the last decade or two that allows people to make longer shots,
1. The average quality of barrels has improved along with rifles. We get better accuracy from out of box rifles than we did 15 or 20 years ago. We get Savage, Ruger, Tikka, Kimber etc which produce excellent accuracy out of box.
2. The quality of bullets has improved and premium bullets are commonly used - much more commonly than 10 to 20 years ago.
3. Yes optics are better, rangefinders are more common & higher power scopes are also more common. But I believe personally that high power scopes are not the main reason for this trend. People with regular 9X to 10X variables are also making longer shots.
4. Better quality triggers have also become more common. In the 90's the factory "Lada" triggers became the bane of shooters due to all the litigation. Now serious long range shooters use custom tuned / after market triggers.

Just think of this scenario - a 20 year old hunter can now go and buy a Savage 7mm Mag or 300 WM and shoot accurately out to 300 yards or more with a standard 3-9X scope. The package would cost him less than $600.
 
Posts: 28 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 20 December 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Alberta,

No bad day, in fact I chose to quote you, as I whole heartedly believe in most all of what you posted.

That said, there are a LOT more folks than me who put in many hours working up the loads, building the rifle as stable as it can be, doing the drops and homework to be able to effectively and reliably put their first shot where it should go.

I don't know why it upsets people, that others can, and do this type of thing, was my point. I also do not know who came up with an imposed set of rules or "ethics", that predetermined the range at which any game should be shot, and anything over this was unethical and should be abolished. It's just like the caliber debate, the game hasn't gotten tougher to kill, and even the lowly 30-30 will effectively kill a elk. The issue is who is using it and how proficient they are with it. Like was mentioned these same critters have been being killed since before the evolution of firearms. The only things that have changed have been the power levels and technology. Some choose to use it some don't. Thats fine with me, but don't knock the next fellow who chooses to learn.

Me personally, I can, and do, prefer to get as close as possible 99% of the time. However there are areas, and conditions, which prohibit this from happening every time, or even half the time for that matter. I would rather be able to use a wide variety of skills really good, than be great at only one. This way I am more prepared for when the conditions or game throw me a curve ball.


Mike / Tx

 
Posts: 444 | Registered: 19 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of daniel77
posted Hide Post
I'll offer up another reason for a higher magnification device. I've hunted a decent bit on clubs with certain trophy standards. You had damned well be able to count points and estimate a score before pulling the trigger, or there is a penalty. For my eyes at least, I can't always do that past 100 yds with a 9X scope. My two main hunting rifles of the past both had 3-9's and I have passed up deer because I couldn't be totally sure that they would score high enough to take. I have also accidentally taken a nubbin buck at 75 yds. that I watched for a hour and was certain was a doe. Having a 14X option sure would have been nice, as I'm quite sure (in retrospect at least) that one of those bucks would have been my best ever, and the razzing for that nubbin lasted 2 years. FWIW, my eyesight isn't bad at all. I don't wear glasses or contacts and have decent vision, just not eagle vision.
 
Posts: 3628 | Location: cajun country | Registered: 04 March 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
HIGH POWER Scopes make tighter groups. By using a high power scope you do not move around as much.
 
Posts: 2209 | Location: Delaware | Registered: 20 December 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Honkey
posted Hide Post
A scope (high power or not) alone dose not make groups tighter, it does not make a rifle "more accurate" It certainly does not make your bullet shoot flatter or do anything about crosswind that you can not even detect 200 yards in front of you...

Present company excluded, I think A LOT of the LONG SHOTS that have become popularized in recent times run the gamut from, bullshit and outright lies, to exaggeration based on miscalculation and inexperience.

Most guys in the general hunting public can not hit a 12 inch target from a bench with their deer rifle at 300 yards. Most guys in this group shoot MAYBE 40 rounds a year. These are the same guys that can hit something with a handgun if it is in the same room with them (make it a small room)

I have shot competitively, been a LE officer, done a lot of shooting and hunting and been around shooters my whole life. If there ever was a time to shoot long distance reliably I have to agree NOW IS THE TIME... The advent of better equipment, such as rangefinders, ballistic drop compensating scope reticules and flatter shooting calibers and bullets that reliably perform at a broad range of velocity makes long range shooting more feasable than ever.

HOWEVER I still believe that when Joe 12 pack tell you about his 650 yard shot on an elk, deer ect ect and he is a deer hunter that has never even seen an animal at 600 yards away until his big trip to Colorado I am calling BULLSHIT 90% of the time.

He might not be a liar. What I have seen over and over is the guy thinks that he did shoot the animal at 600, 700 or whatever ungodly yardage he is claiming.

I have seen this even with WESTERNERS. In Wyoming while elk hunting myself I had a guide tell me about a client who shot an elk that was walking away at 450 yards OFFHAND !!. NOW LET ME TELL YOU..
this guide is a very religious, non cursing, non drinking LDS guy who I doubt ever returned a library book late let alone told a lie. He has also killed a ton of elk and guided hundreds of people to kill elk. I do not even consider the possibility that he would LIE.

HOWEVER he hunts without a range finder. As do many of the locals out west. They have hunted there their whole lives and don't feel the need for one.

I know what it takes to hit targets out to 600 yards in FIELD CONDITIONS. It takes practice, knowing your equipment, knowing the range and MORE practice. In most of these stories, none of this is present. If anybody has figured out how to roll out of bed and shoot a target or animal at 600 + yards without many hours of practice please let me know. That is why I call BULLSHIT.


NRA Life
DRSS
Searcy 470 NE

The poster formerly known as Uglystick
 
Posts: 512 | Location: New Mexico USA | Registered: 06 March 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Without exception the shooters I've seen at the range who claim to be "long range" hunters are also the worst shots. Current "longe range" rifles are not all that much better than the best of the target rifle based equipment of the 1970's anyhow. People persist in thinking they can buy skill and success.
 
Posts: 317 | Location: Texas Panhandle | Registered: 09 July 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of fredj338
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
People are shooting further and further away because they are mostly to lazy to get off their ass and learn how to hunt!
All this crap about shooting elk 900 yards away on TV is BS. If they showed all the bad shots the show would be laughed off the air.
Ok, I vented and am doneSmiler

I agree, It's much harder to try to get closer (actually hunt) than it is to setup & fire for affect. Many of those same shooters never check to see if they even hit the animal. I have come across such kills, often miles away from where the animla was actually hit. There are some good longrange hunters, they do it fro the challenge of the shot. For most though, if you can see them @ 600yds, you can half that distance w/ patience even in open country.


LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT!
 
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of fredj338
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jro45:
HIGH POWER Scopes make tighter groups. By using a high power scope you do not move around as much.

That just isn't true. Besides, depending on the weather, your scope above 14x is almost useless because of mirage. the largest scope I have ona big game rifle is a 3x-9x & even it is a compact. An elk lokks pretty big in a 9x scope even at 400yds. IMO, most hunters are over scoped & think just this way, that a higher magnification along w/ a magnum round makes them a better shot. Just isn't so.


LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT!
 
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Alberta Canuck
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike / Tx:
. We borrowed a laser survey rig and set up a range out to 1 mile, marked every hundred yards to 1K, and every 500 after that.



Mike...I didn't post this until now, because I didn't want you to think I was questioining your truthfulness or your post.

I suspect the above may be a "typo".

But, if you indeed posted targets every 500 yards after 1,000 out to a mile, then you only had one between 1,000 yards and a mile. By my math, there are 1,760 yards in a mile. And, I suspect one target between 1,000 yards and 1,760 yards would not provide enough "real" data points to accurately dial up the proper elevation for long range hits without a LOT of luck and computed guesswork.

(To reliably make first round hits in the vital area of a deer (less than 1/2 MOA diameter at that distance), actual fired data points every 20 yards would be much better, but not absouletly necessary.)

So, I suspect you meant every 50 yards. That would provide enough data points to get the job done. Right?

About 28 years ago a friend and I did the same kind of thing with a 1,000 yard BR rifle built on the .300 Wby case and using the 200 gr. Nosler partition SP bullet. We used a TCCI ball powder which has not been available since the mid 1980s....TCI 5050. With 95 grains of it we could get 3,300 fps MV with the 200 grain Nosler, true chrono'd velocity, over an Oehler chrono of mine. We normally used 94 grains though. At 95 grains and up the velocity extreme spread got wide enough it was obvious we were beyond where the powder burned correctly.

We used a Swiss optical 1-meter artillery range-finder (A "Wild", pronounced "willed", which I still have) for determining distances to the targets. For targets, we used granite rocks from 2 to 3 feet in diameter. They gave a clearly seen puff of "dust" when struck.

Even though we were pretty reliably hitting the rocks and often saw desert whitetails near some of the rocks, we never fired a shot at an animal at that range. Desert winds were too iffy for us. I wouldn't want to wound any animal, not even a mangy coyote.

Best wishes,

AC


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
More powerful rifles, more powerful and brighter scopes, better ballistics, more accurate barrels and guns. I think maybe it's a carry over from bench shooting and varmint.
 
Posts: 1910 | Registered: 05 January 2010Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jro45:
HIGH POWER Scopes make tighter groups. By using a high power scope you do not move around as much.
Hey Fred, The Higher Power Scopes allow "me" to shoot better groups.

But, I'd use the wording that the High Power allows me to see the actual movement better than a weenie scope. Simple heartbeat, breathing, or a slightly unsteady position is way more obvious for me when the "movement" is enhanced with the extra Power.

Also agree with Daniel77 about being able to zoom in on the Head and really see if it is a Doe or a Buck Fawn just out of spots. I remember a good many situations just as he described. Without the extra power, it is no telling which one I might have shot.
-----

Dosen't mean you are wrong for using a weenie scope if that is what you want. Obviously they are considerably lighter than some of my Large Scopes. And the glass in them can be as good as any Big Scope around. They do have a problem in Low Light, Twilight, Overcast/Rainey, but if you do not Hunt those time periods and conditions, then it will never affect a Hunt for you.

The weenie Scopes do fit the Gun Cases real well, which is a nice feature. For the guys determined to use the old (rag) Pre-64 M70s, getting the Center of the scope closer to the barrel is a very positive feature, unless your head and jaw is similar to Jay Leno. The way the old M70 stocks were shaped, Fixed Sights worked great, but it was less than desired for a scope.

Plenty of room for all kinds of scopes - unless - you want to actually take some loooooooong shots and then the weenie scopes are sadly lacking.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of ted thorn
posted Hide Post
With optics I am a better shot than with iron thats far sure.


________________________________________________
Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper
Proudly made in the USA
Acepting all forms of payment
 
Posts: 7361 | Location: South East Missouri | Registered: 23 November 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Snellstrom
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ted thorn:
With optics I am a better shot than with iron thats far sure.


Yep and with 9 power optics I am 9 times better!
 
Posts: 5604 | Location: Eastern plains of Colorado | Registered: 31 October 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike / Tx:
. We borrowed a laser survey rig and set up a range out to 1 mile, marked every hundred yards to 1K, and every 500 after that.


Mike...I didn't post this until now, because I didn't want you to think I was questioining your truthfulness or your post.

I suspect the above may be a "typo".

But, if you indeed posted targets every 500 yards after 1,000 out to a mile, then you only had one between 1,000 yards and a mile. By my math, there are 1,760 yards in a mile. And, I suspect one target between 1,000 yards and 1,760 yards would not provide enough "real" data points to accurately dial up the proper elevation for long range hits without a LOT of luck and computed guesswork.

(To reliably make first round hits in the vital area of a deer (less than 1/2 MOA diameter at that distance), actual fired data points every 20 yards would be much better, but not absouletly necessary.)

So, I suspect you meant every 50 yards. That would provide enough data points to get the job done. Right?

Even though we were pretty reliably hitting the rocks and often saw desert whitetails near some of the rocks, we never fired a shot at an animal at that range. Desert winds were too iffy for us. I wouldn't want to wound any animal, not even a mangy coyote.

Best wishes,

AC


Yep your correct on the ranges, fat fingered the key I guess.

We set everything up to verify the drops with actual shots fired. However after getting it all measured, load worked up, and so forth, we decided that 1150yds, which was right at where the road had a "y" in it made for a great place to stop. It was hard enough, as you mention and others here know, to keep with the changing conditions. First you had the wind, and then when it wasn't blowing you couldn't keep the bull still on the reticle due to the mirage. At 1150 we could at least keep our shots on a 2'x2' box with a 12" orange stick on target. When things were right we could keep them in the 8 ring. But those days were far and few between.

We for the most part kept anything on critters to within 800 or less. When you have several 200 pound hogs standing broadside at 5-800yds they are simply too irresistible, not to bring out he big guns. We don't have prairie dogs, so we make due.

Deer at that range never, and don't see many elk in our part of the country either so there pretty safe too, but the rifles were built for the hogs, so thats what we use them on.


Mike / Tx

 
Posts: 444 | Registered: 19 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Tyler Kemp
posted Hide Post
Better quality scopes, rangefinders, those capable of making the shots the practice a lot.


Love shooting precision and long range. Big bores too!

Recent college grad, started a company called MK Machining where I'm developing a bullpup rifle chassis system.

 
Posts: 2598 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 29 March 2006Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Is that a rifle or the latest model Kenmore? Smiler


Aim for the exit hole
 
Posts: 4348 | Location: middle tenn | Registered: 09 December 2009Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Rifles  Hop To Forums  Medium Bore Rifles    Are high powered scope the reason people are shooting so far?

Copyright December 1997-2023 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia