quote:

Originally posted by nugman:
There would be a slight advantage for the 30-06, for a reason no one has mentioned yet.

The 30-06 case is about 1/2" longer than the 308 Winchester case (~2.5" vs ~ 2.0").

This clearly means that the bullet fired from the 30-06 will hit the target sooner, as it is already ~ 1/2" closer to the target. This would help in wind, time in flight, and for range estimation (you are closer with the 30-06 than the 308 on any shot).



C'mon, I'm just yankin' your chain on this one. :-)

what if the 308 has an extra 1" LOP?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Paul B.....any reloader that cannot muster 2,800 feet second in the 30-06 and 180 mgrainers just isn't paying attention!

No arguement from me there. However, I was comparing one brand of factory ammo in .308 and 30-06, not handloads. You can't really soup up the .308 much more than it already is, but there is some leeway for beefing up the 30-06.
I've been saying for some time that I'd bet a buck or three that the people who work up the data for the loading manuals do have proper pressure tested loads for their 30-06 rifles. I really think it would be great if the liability lawyer would shut the hell up and allow us to get that data for our own use. I've been handloading ammo, both commercially and for myself, so i think I know how to work up a load for a particular rifle. However, I will also admit that regardless of what I do know, and feel is appropriate, I'm still pissing against the wind in working that load up Sure, they appear safe, but are they really? At least, with a modern rifle in 30-06 we can get away with pushing the book a bit. Same with the 7x57. But wouldn't it be more than great if we could have the proper data?
Paul B.

Ah, but there is another rub... as we all know that recoil begins before the bullet leaves the barrel, so the '06 pushes back further thus increasing the distance to the target.

I hunt with a 30-06 in a rifle that fits me very well after I put the hacksaw to the montecarlo stock, that is.

I might point out my experience at the range, where our club would shoot hunter class for groups at 100yds.

Best for groups out of the box rifles per calibers: #1. 243, & #2. 308, were consistent winners and # 3. everything else). These competitions went on for say 5 to 8 summers and the results were always the same.

I have shot deer and elk with both calibers, nearly all with the same reloaded 150 gr. Rem, Cor-Locks.
I can tell no difference and doubt the animals could either.
I have only killed a couple or so at over 300 yards and don't recommend it unless your all practiced up and have a really good rest. One I rested across the hood of my old Land Cruiser and the other on a rock I had been laying behind a couple of hours waiting for a buck to hopefully get up and come my way. He made that mistake. As a whole 250 to 300 is as far as most of us probably otta be shooting at game animals anyway.

I prefer my 700 in 06 over my Winchester 88 in 308 and one reson is that darn 88 kicks like a mule, I don't care if it is a less powerful round. A lot more plays into felt recoil that the bullet itself.

YOu shoot a animal where he lives and it isn't gonna matter a whole heck of a lot what the caliber/ bullet is within rewason.

The muzzle velocity of a 308 is about the same as a 30-06 with the same bullets 10-20yds downrange.

308's are on average more accurate. - 30-06 lovers please don't get your panties in a wad this is a proven fact.

308's on average are lighter handier rifles.

So you can choose either a rifle with 10-20yds more effective range or one that is handier and more accurate............ ...........DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
308's are on average more accurate this is a proven fact.

308's on average are lighter handier rifles.

So you can choose either a rifle with 10-20yds more effective range or one that is handier and more accurate............ ...........DJ

Now whose private stock have you been tapping, roger

The military did tests involving hundreds of similar rifles other than the caliber. The 308 was clearly more accurate.
Astute gun nuts either already have read the tests or can research the data, it's out there.......................DJ

quote:

The muzzle velocity of a 308 is about the same as a 30-06 with the same bullets 10-20yds downrange.

Could you splain thatone to me? Or are you thinking about 100 FPS is "about" the same? which is or isn't depending on how or what your comparing it to.

Whats 10 to 20 yds got to do with it?

Inquiring minds wanna know.

how's about a link to such data. Lota stuff is "out" there

Rem33, DJ is not far off when doing the deceleration factors. Now I am answering off the top of my bald dome, but his point is pretty valid. OK, I'll try again in yankee english: Using the same bullets the .30-06 is doing at 20 yards what the .308 Win is doing at the muzzle, or there abouts. Maybe it's 33 1/3 yards but I am sure you get the point.

Hey don't argue over which is or isn't !. Just get a 7MM or Ultra mag problem solved !.

I shoot .308 ,30-06 . .300 mag 8X57 ,338 mag .375 H&H 9.3X74 and a whole lot of others including a .17 . I prefer .222 .223 .284 though .

The question is which is better .308 or 30-06 ?. Better for what ?. My .17 or .223 is better on varmints !. Less expensive to shoot to boot !

I guess that's why there are so dam many calibers . I'm going to get one of everything if maybe not two or three or !. On the lite side my $.025 worth ...

quote:

Originally posted by remington33:

quote:

The muzzle velocity of a 308 is about the same as a 30-06 with the same bullets 10-20yds downrange.

Could you splain thatone to me? Or are you thinking about 100 FPS is "about" the same? which is or isn't depending on how or what your comparing it to.

Whats 10 to 20 yds got to do with it?

Inquiring minds wanna know.

how's about a link to such data. Lota stuff is "out" there

Read back a ways on this thread where I posted a comparison of Winchester brand 180 gr. Silvertips in .308 and 30-06. The only time the 30-06 even came close to being 100 FPS faster was in a Ruger #1 with 26" barrel. Now this is empirical data fired from my rifles over my chronograph. One of these days I just might also try it with Remington and Federal ammo.
As far as a .308 being much lighter, I do have one built on a 1912 Steyr Mauser action that weighs exactly 5.0 pounds with scope, sling and a full magazine. (4 rounds)
Paul B.

The difference in the field is just about 5 cents worth.

Depends on where "in the field" is. I've hunted with both the .308 and the 30-06 since '69. I've hunted the dense rain forests of the NW for deer and bear, the open tundra of Alaska for caribou, the high mountains after sheep, the big open canyons and conversely pole patches for elk, the prairies of Montana for antelope and the high desert for deer, antelope and numerous varmints. Out to 200 yards there's not much difference (given equal barrel lengths) except when wanting to use the heavier bullets on deer and bear. However, if you ever plan on shooting big game past 200 yards then the '06 does in fact outclass the '08, barrel length for barrel length and bullet for bullet.

One example; my current big game '06 load is the 190 Hornady SPBT at 2740 fps (24" barrel). You can duplicate that velocity in the '08 (24" barrel) with the 165 SPBT. Given the same velocity the 190 gr bullet will retain it's velocity and energy better than the 165 gr bullet because of the better BC of the heavier bullet. That relates to better down range terminal ballistics. There is a difference past 200 yards as I mentioned.

Larry Gibson

My 308 is a nice rifle with a good trigger and scope as is my 30-06. If I had to choose I would keep the 30-06. I use them differently though. Here in Texas I use the 30-06 very seldom but use the 308 a lot on deer and hogs. The '06 gets to go to Wyoming, actually just about anywhere I go out of state and I never use a bullet weighing less than 180 grains in it. Truth is with Reloder 22 and the heavier bullet the '06 leaves the 308 far behind. I load it to the same pressures the 270 is usually loaded to with no problems and fine accuracy.

Using Hodgdon's published data as a baseline, the .30-06 is good for 2700 fps with the 190 grain Hornady and the .308 is good for 2550 with the same bullet.

Data using .491 BC with a 300WM thrown in for kicks:

  
mv                       2550    2700   3000
300y total drop          28"     25"    20"
300y 10mph 90deg wind    7"      7"     6"
300y energy              1750    2000   2500

400y "                   52"     47"    37"
"    "                   14"     12"    11"
"    "                   1500    1700   2150

Draw your own conclusions.

Published data for the 30-06 is loaded to pressures suitable for early Springfields, model 1895 Winchesters and M1 Garands. If you have a modern bolt action rifle like the Remington 700 you can safely exceed published maximums in you rifle if you work up carefully. This said if 150 fps means nothing then why not call the 300 Savage the equal of the 308? Hodgens data usually uses 26 inch barrels but none of my rifles have tubes longer than 24 inches. My 308 barrel is 19 inches long so I feel 2550 fps with a 190 gr. bullet is out of my reach.

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp


Not field info, but was worth reading

SAAMI max pressures for .308 and 30-06 are 62,000 and 60,000 PSI respectively. Hodgdon's data includes pressure measurements and both are being loaded to the same level within the couple hundred PSI/CUP margin of error.

If you are comfortable exceeding 60K for more speed, there's no reason you can't do that in the .308 just as well. If your .308 has a 19" barrel, 2550 at 59k PSI is out of your reach - chop a 30-06 barrel at the same 19" and you'll lose 100+ fps there as well.

Why not the .300 Savage?

  
mv                      2400    2550    2700   3000
300y total drop         32"     28"     25"    20"
300y 10mph 90deg wind   8"      7"      7"     6"
300y energy             1550    1750    2000   2500

400y "                  60"     52"     47"    37"
"    "                  15"     14"     12"    11"
"    "                  1300    1500    1700   2150

Inside 300 yards, why not indeed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by djpaintles:
308's are on average more accurate this is a proven fact.


http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp


Perhaps I was a little hasty in fufuing this staement............
roger

Bartsche, Kudus to you for being Open-Minded and astute enough to find out for yourself.............................DJ

Had a read of the above article. Makes interesting reading, but the accuracy info on the 30-06 hardly makes sense.

2 inch groups at 200 and 3 inch at 300?

Sounds like a load of bull poopoo to me.

My out-of-the-box Tikka will do better than that with factory ammo, no less.

Not to mention it will shoot less than an inch at 200 with good handloads.

I will agree that the .308 is the more accurate cartridge but I would need a lot more convincing that it is by that great a margin.

It would be nice to here from someone that has shot or tried to shoot a 30-06 in competition to hear what they have to say.

My 25th edition of Hodgens manual is still calculating pressure in CUP's. In this manual there is no 2550 fps loading with the 190 grain bullets. Yet you could load the 30-06 to 270 pressurs and get the legendary 2700 fps. Mostly though if I am concerned with fps I use my 7MM Remington magnum as it shoots a bit flatter and maybe a bit more accurately. Getting at my long range targets are usually antelope. Everything else is usually under 300 yards and in range of my 308. I like the heavier bullets for heavier game rather than going the premium bullet route.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by djpaintles:
308's are on average more accurate this is a proven fact.


http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp


Perhaps I was a little hasty in fufuing this staement............
roger

The article is interesting but misleading, the author fails to mention that his facts, while technically correct, apply to gas guns, i.e. the M1 an the M14 using issue match ammo. Given a slow fire bolt action of equal quality and handloads using 175 MKs for instance the '06 will out shoot the .308 at longer rnage simply because the bullet can be driven faster. Being driven faster the '06 bullet will "shoot through" conditions the .308 bullet will not. Also the author fails to consider that even with match rifles the .308/7.62 had the advantage in rapid fire stages of less bolt throw and less recoil, real advantages BTW. Also "new" shooters tend to always shoot better with the round that recoils less "over the course".

Toadhead asks if someone has used the '06 in competition. I have with bolt action M70 target rifles (lately with a M1903 match rifle). I find my scores at 600 yards are pretty much even but at 1000 yards the '06 scores are always slightly better. Additionally, extensive chronagraphing and testing have demonstrated that when loaded to density with modern powders there is no inherant accuracy edge of the .308 over he '06. At one time with factory/arsenal loaded ammunition there was but not anymore.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by djpaintles:
308's are on average more accurate this is a proven fact.


http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp


Perhaps I was a little hasty in fufuing this staement............
roger

The article is interesting but misleading, the author fails to mention that his facts, while technically correct, apply to gas guns, i.e. the M1 an the M14 using issue match ammo. Given a slow fire bolt action of equal quality and handloads using 175 MKs for instance the '06 will out shoot the .308 at longer rnage simply because the bullet can be driven faster. Being driven faster the '06 bullet will "shoot through" conditions the .308 bullet will not. Also the author fails to consider that even with match rifles the .308/7.62 had the advantage in rapid fire stages of less bolt throw and less recoil, real advantages BTW. Also "new" shooters tend to always shoot better with the round that recoils less "over the course".

Toadhead asks if someone has used the '06 in competition. I have with bolt action M70 target rifles (lately with a M1903 match rifle). I find my scores at 600 yards are pretty much even but at 1000 yards the '06 scores are always slightly better. Additionally, extensive chronagraphing and testing have demonstrated that when loaded to density with modern powders there is no inherant accuracy edge of the .308 over he '06. At one time with factory/arsenal loaded ammunition there was but not anymore.

Larry Gibson

Your example of one proves nothing. This is not the only data on the accuracy of the 308 over the 30-06.
30-06's can be fine, accurate rifles. I'm glad you enjoy your ancient 1903 match rifle. But on average the 308 is more accurate than the 30-06. As far as over the course match rifles go the trend is to smaller calibers that offer less recoil. Less recoil is another of the advantages of the 308 over the 30-06..........................DJ

You people would argue over what's the best after-market alternator for a Yugo...

I've owned a 30-06, but never a 308. I do have about 300 once fired 308 Winchester cases a guy gave me, so I think there's a 308 in my future.
For me, the 308 has two very alluring attributes. One is that it works in a short action, and I like short actions. The second is that the 308 is a very accurate round, when loaded to it's potential. When I started shooting centerfire benchrest competively in 1970, there were guys on the circuit shooting 308's, and they shot competitive groups. The thing that did the 308 in on the circuit was one, recoil, and two the 6mm PPC came on line. The 6mm PPC killed off the 222 Rem as well.
Back to the discussion. I just can't see enough difference between the two to quibble about. The 30-06 was the service rifle caliber years ago, which was shot in competition at Camp Perry for years. It is accurate too, for both target shooting and hunting. As a kid growing up in Pennsylvania, if you didn't hunt Deer with a 30-06, you weren't cool..
It boils down to short actions vs long actions really, for hunting; both have more than enough accuracy for Deer hunting in Michigan.

In the field and if one is talking about killing animals there is precious little difference in any caliber from 7-08 to 300 Win. with a properly placed shot. I sure cannot tell any difference in the .308 and 30-06. I use the .308 in a Sav. M-99EG or F for hunting horseback, and/or in the thick stuff of So. Texas. I use the 06 for most everything else, at least most of the time. I choose between them mostly on a urge most of the time.

Guys, I guess my point for bringing up this question was, in the field use, mainly backpack hunting as there is to be more of that in my future. I have a sako 30'06 that I am very happy with, but if I can cut 1 1/2 lbs,say going with a kimber in .308 as I chase elk,caribou and mule deer was I going to be giving up a lot in the way of on game performance if I went w/.308. On paper they seem so close and as I don't see myself shooting past 350 yards I wondered what the real-world difference was.

That's why I have the 308 Micro-Medallion. I personally don't think you, or the animals, will notice the difference. Like I said before, I have both and bought the '06, just 'cause, and can't tell a real world difference between any of my 308s vs. any of my '06s.

If you really wanted the '06, you could have one built, at almost the same light weight as the 308, for about the same $$$ as a Kimber in 308. A Tikka T3 Lite Stainless is only 6pounds 3oz for the '06 for less than $600.

If the hunting situation is such that the difference between a 30-06 and a 308 is relevant, then neither is appropriate.
personally I'd be happy with either.

TerryR

Djpaintles

I answered a specific question with a specific answer based on fact and experience. Considering I was talking about Match M70 rifles in comparison I'll ignore the snippy remark about the "ancient" '03. As to your remarks concerning less recoil, that is what I said. Now to my point; "on average the 308 is more accurate than the 30-06", since my example of one proves nothing would you care to offer an example? perhaps you'd care to tell us of you experience shooting 600 to 1000 yards with both? Or perhaps you could at least provide a documented study of each with facts?

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by handwerk:
Guys, I guess my point for bringing up this question was, in the field use, mainly backpack hunting as there is to be more of that in my future. I have a sako 30'06 that I am very happy with, but if I can cut 1 1/2 lbs,say going with a kimber in .308 as I chase elk,caribou and mule deer was I going to be giving up a lot in the way of on game performance if I went w/.308. On paper they seem so close and as I don't see myself shooting past 350 yards I wondered what the real-world difference was.

Given that criteria the lighter weight .308 should suit your needs. Just stay within its limitations, your self imposed "under 350 yards" and your own shooting abilities and it will serve you well. Thank you also for clarification of your question as you can see it went off on a tangent.

Larry Gibson

Guys, here is the answer:

If you own a 30-06, you need a 308. If you own a 308, you need a 30-06.

The other way to look at this is thus: Own a 30-06 and a 308 in exactly the same gun with exactly the same scope. Use them both for a while, and watch which one becomes your favorite.

If we are talking bolt action, and the 308 is a shorter action, nearly everyone (I predict) will gravitate to the 308 (as I have). If the guns are the same action length, everyone (I predict) will gravitate to the 30-06.

Some will pooh-pooh this statement. To me, 1/2" shorter action length and 1/4lb lighter is wonderful improvement in handling. It is noticeable far more than the additional ballistic difference.

But if you don't gain any handling characteristic, why give up even a small ballistic advantage.

Now, everybody go out and buy an identical rifle in the caliber you don't have. Tell your wife I told you that you must. After you do this, get back with me and tell me I'm wrong.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:

The other way to look at this is thus: Own a 30-06 and a 308 in exactly the same gun with exactly the same scope. Use them both for a while, and watch which one becomes your favorite.

Now, everybody go out and buy an identical rifle in the caliber you don't have. Tell your wife I told you that you must. After you do this, get back with me and tell me I'm wrong.

Mike

Mike

Thought I did that with the two M70 Target rifles...well almost; the '06 had a T16 on it and the '08 had a 6.5x20. Look at the gaff I got....and I'm not even married to Djpaintles!

Larry Gibson

Some one said " about a nickles worth of difference" he's right. someone else listed several calibers, he's correct too. and it's been said a few times about MOA or better which is fine off a bench but " in the field" is a completely different situation altogether. I have seen guys that could hit a target well but had a heck oaf time with deer. I hunt with guys I know have never fired 100 rounds off a bench but seem to kill fine.

The Question was " in the field" and in reality there is no difference between a 308 or a 30-06 'In the field. Just MHO.

I have seen elk go less than 30 feet with shot with a 7MM-08 and a 140 grain bullet and know of one deer that took 7 bullets from a 300 Win mag to kill, least that's what his kid told us, I never had the nerve to ask his dad.
Shot placement is KEY

quote:

The Question was " in the field" and in reality there is no difference between a 308 or a 30-06 'In the field. Just MHO

Your comment made me chuckle just a bit. Many years ago, when I first moved to Nevada, you'd have never convinced me that the .308 was any good. I considered it a 30-06 wannabe. Surely it didn't have the power to kill a deer. Well, my deer hunting had been at or near sea level and now, with the move it was at 7,000 to 9,500 MSL. My 9.5 pound butchered up 1903A3 Sprinfield like to kill this old chain smoking idiot try to struggle up those hillsides. Time to look for anther alternative. I hit the local hardwar store in that small town and found a Remington 660 in .308 Win. I figured it would have to do. A little judicious file work on the stock lightened it up a bit more and a load of H-335 and the 150 gr. Sierra Pro-hunter got me about as close as I could get to what I wanted. I still struggled to breathe climbing those mountains, but the rifle was easier to pack. I soon learned that the .308 would kill deer just as nicely as that heavy old Springfield. That old Remington is now in it's third stock, an early H&S Precision fiberthane that they were making back in the early 1980s when their plant was still in Prescott Arizona. That rifle has taken 17 deer with 17 shots and is one that I probably never will part with. That old butchered up Springfield? It went down the road a long time ago. I still have rifles in 30-06 and a few others in .308. I like 'em both, but as I grow older, it seems the 308 goes out more than the 06. In fact, a Winchester M70 Featherweight in 7x57 gets out even more than the .308.
Paul B.

for field use to 350yards or closer,not much difference at all,your sako 30-06 is one of the very best made rifles peroid,i'd keep it for ever!don't trade your sako for a kimber 308 mountain rifle,sure some of them shoot,but i read about many with problems,its your money,hey why not buy a Fin-lite 308 sako and have both 308 and 30-06,now thats a heck of a pair there.i own one of each with longer custom tubes,there so close it ain't funny.regards jjmp

jjmp- I already have a finnlight .270 in a mcmillan edge and the sako 30'06 has an edge coming..and has had the barrel fluted, thats the issue, the sako always wins!