I know it's an old disscusion, but on paper they seem so close in balistics, but what about in the field, say 350 yds and under, do they serve the same purpose? For a backpack rifle, if a guy can carry a .308 that weighs over a pound less than an 30'06, why not?

I've never hunted with a .308, opting instead for the 30-06. If you're talking about deer hunting, I think it'd be a wash. Where the '06 is supposed to be the better choice is with your heavier bullets.

no real diff

There is probably not a bunch of difference between the two, assuming you are shooting bullet weights suited to both - e.g. a 165 grs. If 200 grs bullets are called for, the choice is obvious, though.

quote:

Originally posted by handwerk:
For a backpack rifle, if a guy can carry a .308 that weighs over a pound less than an 30'06, why not?

Just out of interest, what do you imagine the change in rifle components would be to save 1 lbs between a .30-06 and a .308 rifle?? The action is obvious - the .308 will fit in a short or medium whereas the .30-06 will require a long action. Using the Rem M700 as an example, there are about 3-4 oz difference between a short and a long M700 - given equivalent models (e.g. BDL vs. ADL). That still leaves quite a bit to reach the full 1 lbs difference.

- mike

Mike- I'm comparing my sako ss/syn 30'06, if I put it in a mcmillan edge it will weigh around 7 3/4 all up vs. a kimber montana in 308 which all up should be around 6 1/2 lbs, but will the montana be as "shootable" in the field?

There is a very slight difference in bullets up to 165 grain. I think the only real edge that the '06 has is from 180 up due to powder capacity. I think the compactness is worth having the .308. A good 165 grain bullet from a .308 makes for a very dead elk.

I have both extremes, a very heavy 30-06 (A&B barrel, heavy walnut stock) and a very light 308. I can see the only differences are what has already been mentioned...30-06 with heavy bullets and ease of carrying a light rifle. I love both of mine. I shoot 180 and heavier in the '06 and 150s in the Micro Medallion 308. I see no real performance difference, other than I will admit to being partial to the 308m in general.

if one is talking about hunting the 800 pound animals like very large elk, moose, Kudu, eland, zebra etc then the 30-06 takes over with it's ability to handle the heavier bullets.
For deer and animals about 400 pounds and less the difference is minimal if at all in the field.

I started loading for my 30-06 almost 30 years ago. For years I used a load I got out of Bob Hagel's book for the 180gr nos/par. Thought it was a lazer beam. It had to be smoking fast the way it dropped game. Elk,deer,and caribou would usually drop to the shot. I chronyed it last year for the first time and started laughing out loud at the bench. 2620fps Thats 308 bal.

Any thing I would hunt with a 30-06, I would hunt with a 308.

Guess twice witch one I would chose....

If there is any differense? Unless you use 200 grain bullets and reload max.. no... Will a bullet that is 20grain lighter not kill the animal? Probably not.
But the 06 has a bit more space.. Action lenght? not enough to really make a differense.

I use my 308 with 185grain Lapua Mega bullets for moose, red and roe. I chose the 308 because my father had 3000 rounds from the army..

Johan

quote:

Originally posted by 308winchester:
I chose the 308 because my father had 3000 rounds from the army..

Johan

Johan, are you telling us you are "borrowing" ammo from your Dad?? My, my what Dads don't have to go through with their kids...

- mike

Let's see, the average difference between a .308 win. and a 30-06 is supposed to be 100 FPS in favor of the 30-06. That may not be quite true. Also, the 30-06 is supposed to hadle bullet of 180 gr. and heavier better. That ain't quite true as well.
Now before all you guys armed with flame thrower take me on, do a little chronograph work first. Let's keep it apples to apples as much as possible. Fair enough?
The .308 180 gr. bullet is advertised at 2620 FPS average. The 30-06 is advertised at 2700 FPS average. The 30-06 with 220 gr. bullet is advertised at 2400 Average.
Using chronographed data from my rifles using .308 and 30-06 Winchester brand Silvertip ammo (It's what I had on hand.) average veloacity from the .308 was 2610 FPS from a Winchester M70 with 22" barrel. The 30-06 was tested in a Remington 700 which gave a velocity of 2620 FPS. The same ammo from a custom Mauser with 24" barrel gave 2640 FPS, and from the 26" barrel of a Ruger #1B, a whole 2690 FPS.
I didn't have any factory 220 gr. loads to try in the 30-06, but I did work up a load for the .308 in the M70 which, BTW, has a 1 in 12" twist which according to the "egg-spurts" in the gun rags is not supposed to stabilize a 30 caliber 220 gr. bullet. Well, a velocity of 2300 FPS was not only easily achieved, but accuracy was excellent with groups rangeing from .375" for the smallest and .75" for the largest. Considering the fact that many state that any critter in the field won't notice the difference from 100 FPS if the bullet goes in the right place to begin with, why the BS about the .308 and heavy bullets? I think it is more a case of "velocity sells" and nothing more. Is it a fluke that that particular .308 with the slow twist shoots 220s so well? I think not as the custom Mauser mentioned above also has a 1 in12" twist barrel and it too will group less than 1.0" with 220 gr. bullets when I do my part. I don't think either will do well with the 220 gr. SPBTs on the market today, but with the round nose bullets, they should do just fine.
All the above is based on empirical data gathered by me for cartridges fired in my rifles. Any disbelievers are welcome to dispute my comments, but I would ask that rather than call me a liar or worse, work up the loads for yourself and post your results. Try it first. Then you can have a basis to agree or dispute what I said. fair enough?
Paul B.

Paul B.....any reloader that cannot muster 2,800 feet second in the 30-06 and 180 mgrainers just isn't paying attention!

If you shoot factory ammo I don't think you'll be able to tell the difference. If you handload you may be able to get a bit more out of the 06 but probably nothing big enough to matter. I personally prefer the 06 but have shot enough deer in PA and WV with my old 760, 308 pump to say that you nor the deer will ever be able to tell the difference.

I think if you plug a premium 165 grainer in the 308 it will perform just as well or better than a 30-06 with cup/core 180 grain bullets.

I shoot 30-06 but 308 is pretty damn close

As vapodog has said, the .30-06 outstrips the .308 only with the heavier bullets. For 165 grainers and lighter, there is zero practical difference.

From 150gr to 220gr when loaded to the same pressure in each case, there isn't a man or animal that can tell the difference. Not in the wound chanel or the reaction of the animal to the strike of the bullet.

" For a backpack rifle, if a guy can carry a 308 that weighs over a pound less than an 30-06, why not?"
Exactlly right. Why not?

If the .308 is as good as the 30-06 who needs a .308? Why was it born? If it hadn't been a military round would it even be around today to be used for hunting? I think not. Shoter lighter rifle ---nonsense!!! roger

quote:

Johan, are you telling us you are "borrowing" ammo from your Dad?? My, my what Dads don't have to go through with their kids...

- mike

after my father turned in his H&K AG3 rifle, he didn't have much use for the ammo.... He doesn't hunt or shot, only if I drag him out into the woods or on to the range I can get him to fire some shots.... Also shot all his 9mm parabellum ammo as well + kinda adopted his 22... hahaha

If you aint shoting it....

Johan

Look guys, most of us are handloaders here at AR so generally speaking we all try to develope loads to shoot the smallest groups at the highest velocities for any round we are working with. We as a group are very awear of small numerical differences between one load and another. The value we give to an extra 100 or 200 fps that we might see at the range simply doesn't transfer equally to the effect on game we would see on a hunt.

I'm just speaking from my personal experience when I say there are a large number of cartridges out there that when used with bullets of similar structure and sectional densities, will produce identical results in the field.

Actually, let's make this a true trail of (only) slightly diminishing returns and see where we end up.

Get a 30-06.
Get a 308, for practical field application is nearly the same as the '06 in a short action lighter rifle
No! Get a 308 Marlin, and realize the advantage of a lightweight, easy handling lever rifle same ballistic data
Get a 300 Savage, in an even handier carbine with a rotary magazine so you can use spitzer bullets.
Hey, take a trip down nostalgia lane, get a 30-30 in a Savage 340, so you can use spitzer bullets.
Even better, get a 7.62x39 in an AK-47and have a 30-round magazine for all the back up firepower you'll ever need in a really lightweight sweet handling carbine...200 million communists can't be wrong.

By following the logic that 308 proponents use, the old AK round is plenty for deer thru brown bears.
Chew on this one a little while and get back to me tomorrow...

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Actually, let's make this a true trail of (only) slightly diminishing returns and see where we end up.

Get a 30-06.
Get a 308, for practical field application is nearly the same as the '06 in a short action lighter rifle
No! Get a 308 Marlin, and realize the advantage of a lightweight, easy handling lever rifle same ballistic data
Get a 300 Savage, in an even handier carbine with a rotary magazine so you can use spitzer bullets.
Hey, take a trip down nostalgia lane, get a 30-30 in a Savage 340, so you can use spitzer bullets.
Even better, get a 7.62x39 in an AK-47and have a 30-round magazine for all the back up firepower you'll ever need in a really lightweight sweet handling carbine...200 million communists can't be wrong.

By following the logic that 308 proponents use, the old AK round is plenty for deer thru brown bears.
Chew on this one a little while and get back to me tomorrow...

Rich
DRSS

Rich,
Your logic is illogical. But what the hay...if it makes sense to you then use an AK. They're excellent brush guns on full auto.

As they say, zilch, zero, nada...

Kinda grumoy aren't ya Rich

I would say the following...for anything under elk and under 250 yds and under a 180 grn bullet their is no practical diffference.

Would I take a shot at an elk at 260 yds with 180 grn bullet and a 30-06 yep. If I had a 308 with 180s, I think I would get closer.

I was being a "butt" to make the point...each step up the power ladder is a fairly close one, at what point is "almost as good" inadequate? Hmmmmm...
At what floor does your elevator stop?

Rich
DRSS

When a shot is fired at game with either of these two cartridges would you know the difference if you had been handed the rifle blindfolded?

I know this discussion is center on and beaten to death the miniscule difference in the field performance and bullet weight handling abilities of the '06 and the '08.

So let me put my slant on the real issues! The actual firearm which is chambered and it's handling characteristics. Weight and ballance, accuracy and recoil, ease of operation. Does the rifle fit the shooter?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
...By following the logic that 308 proponents use, the old AK round is plenty for deer thru brown bears. ...

Wrong aga as usual. Pitiful!

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
So let me put my slant on the real issues! The actual firearm which is chambered and it's handling characteristics. Weight and ballance, accuracy and recoil, ease of operation. Does the rifle fit the shooter?

I do like both cartridges and 308Sako has described the very best way to decide on which one a person should get.

bolt throw and recoil, thats all.

quote:

but what about in the field, say 350 yds and under, do they serve the same purpose?

After having killed stuff with both, I think they both easily "serve the same purpose" and I don't think there is any difference that either you or the game you are hunting could tell. Just one man's opinion!

Here's how I break it down:

For the Rock Mountain West, Alaska or Western Canada where elk and moose are hunted I'd always opt for the 30-06.

Back East/Midwest where whitetail are the goal I'd stick to the 308... the 30-06's extra margin of power isn't needed.

The 30-06 will typically run 125-150 fps faster than the 308 with all bullet weights (handloads).

The 308 shines as a mountain cartridge in an ultralight rifle... to me the 308 is noticeably gentler in equal rifles.

The awful truth is I doubt there's much difference between them that one could objectively quantify over a lifetime of taking game with each.

Me, I tend to err more on the 30-06 side... today (grin).

When I bought my first new deer rifle, I went with the .308 as they were out of the 30-06 models.

For all pratical purposes, there isn't much difference. You get a little more fps from a 30-06, but if shoot factory ammo that is debatable.

I like my .308, and wouldn't trade it in. But I can't honestly say that a 30-06 wounldn't have worked just as well.

Two things: One, Load both cases to equal pressures and the .30/06 yields superior ballistics. Same goes for the .280 versus the 7X57. Two, The .30/06 was our go-to cartridge in World Wars I and II. It has been everywhere and done everything in the hands of folks like Stewart Edward White, Theodore Roosevelt, Townsend Whelen and other worthies. This part is subjective, I know, as many hunters and shooters care not a fig for tradition or the romance of our hunting heritage. For these folks, a .308 in a syn stock and a stainless action is a marvel of efficiency, and a good joke on the clunky old .30/06. That's fine. But the bottom line is the .308 in every way will always be Bud Light to the real deal.

so, the answer by the panel is just to hunt with what you feel comfortable with...?

Rich
DRSS

I have a .308 Model 70 compact that has a 20 inch barrel. Have not cronoed it, but it is accurate. Also have a 7mm-08 compact, with same length barrel. I loaded up some 175 grain hornaday spire points for the 7mm-08 using just the published load in the hornaday book. Was supprised that I got about 2450 fps average over 10 shots.

I will crono the .308 sometime in the near future. I put a one inch recoil pad on it to increase the length of pull. It is very handy in the field. The only problem is the big deer show up only when I have my marlin 45/70.

The only obvious difference you will notice in the field between the 308 and the 30-06 is that is that when you or your buddy run out of ammo you can not excange ammo with the other one.

Brad: That was about the best explanation I've heard on the differences between the two cartridges!
I'll also add the fact that both cartridges were obviously military rounds and the 308 was designed to cycle faster through automatic weapons without losing the inherent qualities of the 3006. jorge

I have to agree with Brad and Jorge here...new powders and optimal bullet weights blur the distinction. 308w165's, 30-06 with 180s+.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
so, the answer by the panel is just to hunt with what you feel comfortable with...?

Rich
DRSS

Yes, that about sums it up!

Nugman,

Thats great and I will convince 10 people at work tomorrow that its the gospel. I LOVE IT......................

I live in northern ontario, people here use mostly the .308Win, 30-06 or the .303 British.

There is a good percentage using 7mm rem mag along with 300 win mag.

I started off with the .303 brit ($100) rifle, then bought my .308 Win Rem 700 VS. I've shot moose with both and there's no difference. My wife shoots a M70 in .308 Win because she feels the recoil of the 30-06 is worse for her. The father in law shoots 7mm rem mag and I still haven't seen the difference.

Point being, if the .303 Brit with a 180gr bullet at 2450 fps can do the job with no difference in animal behavior then having more doesn't mean a whole lot unless the range is terribly long.

If you want a light short backpack "scout" type rifle then the .308 Win is the best indeed. If you want more punch out of it, you can always opt for the Hornady Light or Heavy Magnum loads.