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Hi, First post and I need your expertise. Question: Are Boat tail bullets a poor choice for big deer? Story: Hunting deer and I shot a good buck (about 250lbs 137Inch). I made a shot at about 90 yards using a 30-06 and factory boat tail federal bullets (box just says boat tail and shells are about 15 years old) It made a very small hole and no exit hole. The 150lb buck I shot the day before had no exit hole either. Discovered zero blood. Found him lying on his side, the side with the entry hole and still no blood coming out. Chatting with the local gun store expert and he said the Boat tail is a very poor choice. It doesn't hold up well and that is why I didn't get a good trail of blood. He said I always need a bonded bullet. Is this true? | ||
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It depends on who you ask..You will get many different answers.. I'm not a boattail fan as they do tend to slip the lead core, but I have not had a failure with them in years..Early on the sierra was too soft in the .270, but that was many years ago.. I do get better accuracy with flat base bullets..I see no need for any premium bullet for deer, its about 12 inches through a deer broadside and any bullet will kill them..going away try the Corelokts, they always work if they will shoot accurtely in your gun. A noser partition is always a fine choice under any circumstances on any animal. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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How far did he run? | |||
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All I have ever used is a boat tail bullet of some sort. Molon Labe New account for Jacobite | |||
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I've killed a lot of deer, elk and antelope with a 7mm Mag shooting a Hornady 162Gr Boat Tail Spire Points. Never had a problem with them untracking deer or other game. | |||
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Wow, great info with an hour. Super comments. The larger buck went about 45 yards in tall grass and thick, short pines. Which is a very short distance but it could have been lost if I didn't hit both lungs and clipped the heart. Small buck gave a lot of blood and ran maybe 20 yards but I hit him perfectly. My dad says I shouldn't complain considering the results of 2 quickly killed deer. | |||
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I will add I have never had a bullet not exit a deer. You don't say what weight bullet? Molon Labe New account for Jacobite | |||
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I always match not only the bullet to the game but also to the velocity window at which I am launching it. Proper bullet selection is essential -- and you don't "need" a premium or a boat-tail to cleanly kill a deer. But to that end, the boat-tailed projectiles can indeed work quite well:     And here's a short blood trail from a the above which was shot with a 150 grain Ballistic Tip:    And as to the "expert" saying a boat-tail is a poor choice, he needs to get out and hunt more instead of re-hashing garbage. The Accubond is a boat-tail, as is the Scirocco and numerous offerings in the Barnes lineup, all of which are premium bullet and will likely shoot all the way through any deer that ever walked. I am certainly not saying premiums are necessary, but what you were told is pure hogwash. Here's a photo of the ground where a hog hesitated briefly before completing its 25-yard death run. The damage was caused by a 130 grain Accubond from a 6.5 Bullberry IMP and was launched at a pedestrian 2626 fps MV. But in the "expert's" eyes, I guess that bullet was a poor choice...   Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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I prefer flat based bullets. The boat tails are usually prettier but I've never seen them to be more accurate nor letal. Ray pretty well capped it. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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For deer, I never worried about it. Maybe I should.  I use boat tails because they are pretty and load easier, and with only one exception that I can think of, they have been accurate. As stated above, I also consider the use. Boat tails are not all the same. For example, Accubonds are boat tail, and they aint the same as a Sierra. Many of the Barnes TSX and TTSX are boat tails, and of course they are in a seperate class. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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The best bullet action I ever got was with a boat tail bullet on a mule deer doe. 30-06 and the old Nosler 165 Solid Base Boat Tail at about 150 yards. The doe was standing in front of a big juniper and on impact jumped straight up, turned a 180 and bounded off. There was a 24" diameter blood splat on the tree trunk and a pool of blood where she had been standing. Followed the way she left and there were pieces of lung everywhere. She made about two bounds and piled up. An exit hole I could put my fist in, lungs shredded and the top of her heart blown off. | |||
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From the description of your ammo it sounds like they are Nosler Ballistic Tips. You may have the older style bullet with lead tip instead of plastic so I am just guessing. These bullets are designed to blow up shortly after impact. I have never recovered a BT except for fragments and they create a lot of bloodshot meat. As much as I do not care for them I never lost an animal because of performance. I prefer an exit wound for blood loss and prefer full penetration. On the negative side a bullet that completely penetrates will not expel all of it's energy inside the animal. How much energy is transfered can vary greatly and I am not the one to expand on this subject. The Nosler BT and Hornady SST are thin copper jackets with unbonded lead and a plastic tip and boat tail. They are basically match bullet designs IMO. I have seen very good accuracy with them and love shooting targets with these designs. They are inexpensive and behave like their bonded counterparts up until impact on game so it is great for range time. I just prefer a better bullet design while hunting and since the cost is negligable use bonded or mono bullets. A BT(38 cents) is about half the cost of an Accubond(58 cents). Decide what you want out of your bullet then choose one that fits the criteria. If you are looking for penetration then look to Nosler Partitions and Accubonds or Hornady Interbonds. For mono metals there are the Barnes bullets, Nosler E Tips and Hornady GMX. If you choose mono metal bullets I would suggest dropping weight because they perform like heavier weight lead bullets. If you use 165 BT's then try a 150 Barnes TTSX. The 30-06 is a superb caliber and you have so many options it can become daunting. I would look for accuracy first then the bullet that best suits your expectations. | |||
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I am coming to the conclusion that in bullets that are not bonded, assuming all other features of construction are the same, the boat tail bullet tends to separate it's core and jacket more easily than a flat base design from the same manufacturer. An example of this would be the 30 cal Hornady interlock BTSP vs SP. In some ases the Boat tail bullet will actually be designed by the manufacturer to be softer than the equivalent flat base. the thinking here is that a boat tail design is intended for long range shooting and needs to open up at lower impact velocities than the flat base. An example of this is the 30 cal Speer BTSP vs hot-cors. I started my hunting career using boat tails because of the hype about their better ballistic coefficients, but realised that most game is shot under 200 yards and hence have started moving to bullets I or others I trust have found as reliable on game. That last is the most important attribute of a hunting bullet IMO. | |||
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As usual GHUBERT gives us the commonsense "Brit" viewpoint. | |||
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You shot your deer & they died quickly. You did not loose the animal. So what is the problem? The key is shot placement. As long as you avoid big bones, BT bullets are fine for deer. Yes Balistic tips, Sierras, Speer BTSP & such tend to expand quickly and fragment at close range. So the answer is to be careful about shot placement. As mentioned by others the Accubond, Sirrocco, Barnes TSX etc. are premium BT bullets. If you are relatively new to hunting & are starting to get more interested in cartridges, bullets, loads etc. I would suggest that you read a lot of the old posts here on AR to get a good "education". Do not take as gospel what a gun shop assistant tells you. Most of those I have met are not very experienced hunters or shooters and often perpetuate old myths with little factual basis for those opinions! Good hunting "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Again, thank you all for your time and opinions. They are all valuable. I have hunted for over 30 years but have always listened to the wisdom of my elders. I was happy with the results but no blood trail is still no blood trail. I have shot many different bullet sizes and styles, mostly in the 180 or 165 or 168 grain sizes for deer. In Ontario, I have taken deer from 120lbs to almost 300lbs. I have not lost a deer but with so many bullet choices, I wanted to know if I needed to switch. I think I will give the premium BT a try at the range. | |||
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i don't think i've ever hit a deer with a hunting bullet butt first .. makes zero difference.. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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No, you do not need a bonded bullet to kill deer. If you are shooting a 7mm STW, or a 300 RUM, and launching them around 3500, then I would recommend a bonded bullet, but at normal 30-06 velocities, a good cup and core bullet will kill a deer just fine. | |||
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I think BT bullets are fine for deer. I just shot a 265 lb buck here in Sask. He was 80 yds away quartering to me and a bit downhill. The bullet shattered front shoulder, took out two ribs, heart and some lung. Bullet was found on far side hide resembling a mushroom. The bullet was a 140gr SST and after that weighed 88gr. There was zero blood trail. But none was needed as he only went 30 yds after the shot. | |||
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Sure. No view point of any nationality is required. Just get your fingers dirty by digging a lot of bullets out of a berm. | |||
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Be very aware of these types of people.. I can honestly say I've never had a failure with a boat tail but most of my cartridges run in the 2700-2800fps range so I'm not really stressing them. The 139gr btsp Hornady is a favourite in my 7mm08 and the 85gr hpbt has worked very well for me in a 243 for a couple of decades. Boat tail or flat base?, it's not something I spend a lot of time wondering about | |||
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the boat tail has more to do with bullet flight than bullet performance on game; so, The farther away you shoot game the more important it becomes. The boat tail design offers better ballistics by reducing drag while in flight. This translates directly to flatter trajectory and more retained energy but this is all trivial inside 300 yards. I use boat tails mostly because the Nosler Ballistic tip comes that way. Captain Finlander | |||
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 Exactly.My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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I shot this 300lb deer 2 weeks ago at 200 yards with a 180gr Nosler Accubond. The bullet went through both lunds and his heart before exiting the animal. The deer went about 30 feet and fell over. Not a drop of blood to be found. The bullet traveled between the ribs on both sides and made very small holes in the hide. | |||
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"boat tail" merely describes the shape of the base end of the bullet. your concern should be with the construction of the bullet, be it boattail or flat base. accubond is a good boattail bullet that works very well on deer (and there are several others), while some cup and core boattails MIGHT NOT work as well because of their construction. the boattail design is there to improve aerodynamics, not terminal performance. good hunting. | |||
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You're on the right track onthunter...I've used VLD boat tail bullets & they do much the same, enter the animal and fragment devastating the vitals, but no exit. A couple years ago I happened upon some Accubonds & gave 'em a try...the first deer shot with 'em ran about 80 yards, but a blind man coulda followed the blood trail. The last deer I shot was a high shoulder hit & it dropped him in his tracks, but if he had ran, there would have been much the same blood trail. If you're hunting thick brush & a good blood trail is a must, I'd go with a bullet that holds up a bit better @ close ranges. Where I hunt tracking isn't as difficult as it can be in the thick spruce brush you guys get out in Ontario so I can get away with a more frangible type bullet. Happy hunting!! | |||
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Exactly Coyote Killer82, I was rethinking what happened to the vitals of the two deer I got this fall. Both deer's vitals were a mess. Love the results but a good blood trial is something I feel is equally important. I'll save those Federal Soft Nose Boat Tail for some farmer's field or large food plot where I can see the deer fall even if he runs. Again, thanks for everyone's great responses. | |||
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I've been using Sierra 165 grain BTSP handloaded to 2800 fps in the 30-06 to shoot deer with for many years. I have often thought about trying a 180 grain load and even bought 400 Hornady 180 grain .308 bullets to do some load development. The 165 BTSP works so well on deer that I've stuck with it. I have never had one of the 165 grain BTSP handloads fail to exit on a broadside shot. I have shot deer facing me through the chest and recovered the lead core, without the jacket, in the hind quarter but those deer dropped instantly to the shot. All the deer I have shot with this load left a good blood trail but in every case it didn't really matter because the deer either dropped in it's tracks or only went 50 or 60 yards. | |||
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Ranger02, looks like a classic case of COMPLETE BULLET FAILURE to me....(nice buck.. too bad the bullet failed) | |||
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You are worrying about the wrong end of the bullet IMHO. Boat-tail has no effect on performance once it impacts meat. I have not done a full research project on available bullets. However, I will say that .30 cal. 168 gr. Sierra boattail match bullets, the same bullets I used in competition for years, work just fine on anything up to deer sized animals -- from experience -- and probably anything short of "thick-skinned" game. As long as you place your shot. I would not want to come up against a shoulder joint. | |||
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It's really not true. If exits are a priority you can go bonded. A cheaper alternative is to use 180 grain bullets in your 30-06. High velocity impact is the enemy of all cup and core if you want penetration. Bigger bullets solves a lot of the issues. Also, if you are shooting under 300 yards, boat tails do very little for you over flat based bullets. I use the Nosler Ballistic Tip which has a solid base to mimic a flat base. If you use medium to heavy bullets for caliber and drive them at 2500-2800 muzzle velocity, you won't have any problems. | |||
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From what I've read the bt's are for longer shots.They shoot well in my guns but since long shots don't apply where I hunt deer I use flat base bullets.They shoot just as well and I like having more surface for the neck to grip the bullet since I usually only neck size my reloads. | |||
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 I've killed a number of fair sized mule deer bucks with both FBs And BTs. Never thought it an issue. From a reloading point of view it would be nice if all bullets were at least abbreviated Boat Tails. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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onthunder, A boattail bullet is just a bullet that has a tapered base. This is done for aerodynamic reasons, which don't really matter at short range (0 - 200 yds). It does make a difference at longer ranges. The shape of the base has little to do with how it performs when it hits a deer. Your local gun store expert is not so much an expert. Some would say your bullet performed perfectly. It hit where you were aiming, and killed your deer in quick order. In this sense, your dad is right. Your only beef is that the bullet didn't exit and leave you a blood trail. You could change to a tougher bonded bullet, or use a two piece bullet like a partition. This would give you better penetration and increase (not guarantee) your chances at exit wound. Bullets can do funny things when going through flesh and especially bone. Note also that an exit wound does not necessarily guarantee you a blood trail. I've deer hunted in NW Ontario, and the deer there can be very large and very fat. I've killed deer there that had an exit wound with no blood trail, as the fat under the hide plugged both holes. Others in my party had the same thing. You are hitting where you are aiming, which is the most important thing. If you keep doing that, changing bullets is a secondary concern. -nosualc Beware the fury of an aroused democracy. -Ike | |||
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My opinion is that the prejudice against BT bullets stems from the early cup and core designs which were prone to separating. I don't think that is nearly the problem it once was in cup/core types because the bullet makers have improved their designs. I've been using the Hornady Interlock 139gr BTSP in my .280Rem for nearly twenty years and taken deer/antelope with it from 10-315yds. It is launched right at 2900 fps and will group ten shots into .75" from my 22" barreled Rem700 Mountain Rifle. I appreciate the slight advantage the BT gives at long range, but am not under the illusion that it is required. The pics below are of the spent bullet I dug out of the buck I killed at 205yds this week. He was going over the hill quartering away and the bullet entered between the shoulder blades, plowed through 5-6" of spine and stopped just under the skin just down from the jaw line. It weighs 93gr (67%) and folded back to the "interlock" at the cannelure and stopped. I would consider this excellent performance. The only other one of these bullets I've recovered was shot at a ground squirrel sitting on a stump 30yds away. I shot low and the bullet ended up sitting on top of the stump and looks just like the one in the picture, so they can survive high velocity impacts as well. I'd choose something heavier for bigger animals, but a properly designed BT bullet does not concern me.   | |||
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I don't say a BT bullet is not letal, I am saying it really brings nothing to the table. And folks that say it enhances trajectory, need to read a couple of load books. You have to be waaay out there before there is a difference and then it's rather moot from a hunting situation. I concluded my speech by telling them that I was done with politics for the present, and they might all go to hell, and I would go to Texas. -- Davy Crockett 11AUG1935 | |||
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