I hope this isn't beating a dead horse but I have a question regarding the differences between the Ackley and Nosler versions.

I've read the past posts and am still a little confused. My rifle is an older 280 Ackley Improved. Since both the Ackley and the Nosler can safely shoot factory 280 Remingtons and since the Nosler is said to ever so slightly set back from the Ackley version, it would seem totally safe to shoot the Nosler 280 Improved ammo in my 280 Ackley to get fire formed brass with the proper head-stamp on the case. Am I correct? If so I'm willing to give it a try but just wanted to be overly cautious before doing so.

Thanks for any thoughts and/or advice...

I believe a lot of the fear and issues come from the fact that there are a lot of factory 280 rechambers out there that the barrel wasn't set back when rechambered to AI. People shot factory 280 in it and even though it was probably no longer a crush fit they go away with the excess headspace. Then the formed brass had the prober headspace.

If it were mine and I wanted to use the Nosler brass I'd simply neck it up and back to 280 to form a false shoulder to insure I didn't stretch the brass in the head area. Just make sure your brass is a crush fit in your chamber.

I shoot Nosler 280 AI as a matter of routine in my "old" or "standard" 280 AI. The Nosler cases fit a bit tight but are safe and fit perfectly when reloaded.

Interesting in that I am building myself a full blown custom on a G33-40 small ring action and intended it to be a 7x57 long throat gun like most of my 7x57s have been..The shoot with the 7x57 Ackley, but have been wondering about doing a 280 Ackley IMP with a long throat and magazine, Im pretty sure it will do about anything the 7 mag will do, but in lighter more compact rifle..A long throated 7x57 or Ackley IMP will equal a factory 140 gr. 7 mag round but not a handloaded 7 mag..a 280 IMP with long throat and magazine just might equal a 7 mag at its best???, if not it will come real close.

Atkinson,

QL lists the case capacity of the 280 AI at 74 grs of H20, whereas the 7mm Rem Mag is listed at 82 grs of H20.

Everything else equal, the 7 Rem Mag will out perform the 280 AI, because of the larger case capacity.

Nonetheless, IMO, behind a good hunter and shooter, both calibers - that is, loaded properly - will work just fine for anything in North America and for all but the most dangerous game in the rest of the world. Likely, there is little practical difference.

I can testify that the 280 AI is quite accurate and fairly easy on barrels. I use mine for long range shooting.

AI USer,
Don't confuse ray with physics -- a 15% greater case capacity can't be overcome with any length throat, but he'll never admit that...

SPECIAL long throated rounds. .

Now yall have confused me . I thought the 7x57, 7x57ai, 280ai and 7mmRem mag were all the same caliber.
Did I miss something ?

All Those cartridges are the same caliber, as in they use 7mm/.284 diameter bullets.
They all have different case sizes.
The 7mm Mauser has the smallest case. The 7mm Mag the largest.
With all loaded to the same pressure they get faster as the case size increases. Larger case = more powder.
Leo

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
AI USer,
Don't confuse ray with physics -- a 15% greater case capacity can't be overcome with any length throat, but he'll never admit that...

SPECIAL long throated rounds. .

Yup! Been there.

I had my 280AI cut with a longer throat to handle the VLD bullets. It will not do what my 7mm Rem Mag will do. It will get close to what some companies load their factory 7mm Rem Mag but not if I were to hand load for both cartridges.

Omitting Jeffes usual ridiculas tweets that are never intelligent, informative, conversational but instead just snide and without substance Apparantly he has never learned to read, just obliviate and blather BS..

What I said was one can make an Ackley IMP or a 7x57 Long throated gun duplicate some of the weak loaded 7 mag "factory round" according to my CHRONOGRAPHS..NOT a PROPERLY handloaded 7 mag by a long shot..

The major problem with ALL post is MIS-READING, MIS-UNDERSTANDING and MIS-BLAH-BLAH-BLAH take your pick...

AND...

The fact that that MANY IF NOT MOST of the forum readers don't have the slightest idea of HOW TO PROPERLY set up and fireform ANY Ackley Improved rechambered brass, or HOW TO CHECK factory ammo for usability, even though it has been "beat to death" on this and other forums...nor do they have any actual experience in the "why's and wherefore's" of wildcatting other than what they read, or actually MIS-READ/MIS-UNDERSTAND ON THIS VERY DANGEROUS AND SEEMINGLY SIMPLISTSIC WWW...plus all the krap blow offs that little AND big boys tend to feel necessary.

Having ANY AI has a certain bragging rights attached to it...but in todays world I see no real need for any of them as it is cheaper just to buy a larger cased "COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE STANDARD" rifle in the same or larger caliber...except for nostalgic reasons or "just because".

I got a shock yesterday while looking around for reamers for a proposed 375 WSM...PT&G reamers are now ~$170 plus s/h...Dies ~$126...BBL after adding in on all the fancies like crown, Cerokote, contour,(no chamber as they don't have the reamer) was near $400...a blank was much cheaper at ~$165...I can do the rest myself.

Bragging rights and the few FS be damned, I can buy a new rifle for the price of a barrel almost.

I think EVERYONE should have an AI or two or some other wildcat...but I also think that those contemplating this action should spend a few months/years studying and learning the nuances just to keep themselves from being hurt or blowing a lot of money on a DANGEROUS POS.

By the way Jeffe, you might want to check your math or case capacity info...the differences in the listed case variance's is on the order of ~5% to ~9%...even the best of the bunch, the 250 Sav AI is only ~11% and as it's been already proven your net gain is on the order of ~2% of that...you can see the resulting velo increase in several reloading manuals.

NO FLAME OR DISS INTENDED...BUT...you need to aire any grievances or disagreement's by email between yourselves and not in forums...We have ceased being gentlemen in this world.

Luck

Where is the fun of just buying a bigger case or bigger caliber rifle.
Wildcats are fun. Having fun is what it's all about.

I think there is a definite niche for the 280 AI.
On the low end the factory 280 Rem has been typically or historically under loaded from the factory as we all know. At the upper end the 7mm Rem Mag out performs the 280 but at the cost of more powder and recoil and muzzle blast.
Some people seek that magic line in the sand where you get the most performance from an economy of powder and case size which the 280 AI does that.
When you push beyond that you are in that level of diminishing returns.
With that said everyone's cartridge choice is completely personal and one persons reason to select a cartridge is the exact reason why someone else will choose a different cartridge.
To each his own I say.

quote:

Some people seek that magic line in the sand where you get the most performance from an economy of powder and case size which the 280 AI does that.

That was my plan. Actually when you plot up the results the break over point is just a touch more capacity than the 280AI. Closer to the 280PDK 7mmGibbs 280 Howell.

Just remember capacity will always win all other things equal

Forget worrying about capacity, pressure, MV, etc...I'm gettin me one of these....


The batteries are heavy...or you need a long extension cord...MV isn't measure in fps but in mph!! However, the muzzle blast can be problematic but leaves a good blood trail.

Just thought we needed a lighter moment here...

The only problem I have with any 06 based case wilcat is we still have the 30-06 and none of them will beat it from a practical standpoint or from a hunting standpoint..Its just that I have 3 30-06s and that's my only justification for a 280 Ackley IMP, but if one takes a serious look at a 30-06 Ackley, well there ya go.

quote:

it from a practical standpoint or from a hunting standpoint..Its just that I have 3 30-06s and that's my only justification for a 280 Ackley IMP,

Heck Ray if you focus on practical 99% of the rifles out there aren't needed.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Some people seek that magic line in the sand where you get the most performance from an economy of powder and case size which the 280 AI does that.

That was my plan. Actually when you plot up the results the break over point is just a touch more capacity than the 280AI. Closer to the 280PDK 7mmGibbs 280 Howell.

Just remember capacity will always win all other things equal

I agree the breakover is slightly above the 280 AI and below the 7 mag

I shot my .280AI with incredible fps last fall with 162 Hornady ELDX bullets

Literally mind boggling

Sad fact is if you plot it out the 7mm S&H is really ideal

Or the 7mm WSM
Oh god the horror!!

I like the 7WSM or 7SAUM

I just wish rifles and brass were available because I don't like it enough to neck down 300WSM....and thats an easy task

quote:

7mm WSM

That is only less than a grain smaller than the 7mag. The S&H is around 78. I thought the break over point was 76-77 but I have slept since I ran the numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Some people seek that magic line in the sand where you get the most performance from an economy of powder and case size which the 280 AI does that.

That was my plan. Actually when you plot up the results the break over point is just a touch more capacity than the 280AI. Closer to the 280PDK 7mmGibbs 280 Howell.

Just remember capacity will always win all other things equal

I agree the breakover is slightly above the 280 AI and below the 7 mag

Cutting things pretty thin....The 7 Rem Mag has been around for decades and the 280AI offers no meaningful advantage that I can determine.It's more a cult cartridge for loonies than anything else and will never catch the 7 Rem Mag in either popularity or performance.

We all have our opinions on thee things but to me the 280AI is ancient history....the 7 Rem Mag made it extinct.

This is easy to see and the reason I was not interested in a 280AI 30 years ago nor now.No advantage at all.

Who sets the criteria for the "break over point"? :roll eyes:

I can spec a cartridge tomorrow with low pressure FF loads that equal or exceed what a 280AI will do; yet leave a 7 Rem Mag firmly behind.

Is there a formula out there? Just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

7mm WSM

That is only less than a grain smaller than the 7mag. The S&H is around 78. I thought the break over point was 76-77 but I have slept since I ran the numbers.

And the 280 AI has one less grain than the 7mm SAUM.

Whoa! you guys are going to piss Jeffe the caliber cop off!! He is opposed to MAX..apparently has never been there, just surmising its loacation, then uses AR for support as opposed to illumination and the difference between fact and fiction. He is a walking contradiction some fact but mostly fiction.

Ray you and Jeffe should take your love affair off the forum.....

I have a 257 AI. It does have its perks, but count me in among the crowd that doesnt believe in magic. Much as I like my "Improved" rifle, I think if I wanted another 7mm I would just go with one of the standard versions and adhere to the KISS rule of thumb. I guess what I am saying is I am not so sure I believe that the 280 AI is really that much better than the original, which is a fine round in its own right.

I'm shooting SAMMI Spec 280AI and kind of nice to buy brass for. I never figured it was anything other than 280AI so guessing few think it's something else.

I think I'll stick to my 7 STW :-)

quote:

The 7 Rem Mag has been around for decades

I don't believe anyone is saying that a 280AI will beat a larger case such as the 7mag. The only advantage a 280AI or any of the other 06 based 7mm wildcats will give you is 5 down instead of 3. You can "normally" load the wildcats hot enough to equal a 7mag factory. But 7mag handloads loaded to equal pressure will win all day long.

If you simply want max velocity get a larger case. Simple.

I took the same 280 barrel, took it to RCBS, AI then 7mmJRS then my 280PDK. Yes for each 4% of capacity I gained 1% velocity. Could I match my own 7mag handload. Nope.

But for some of us it isn't max velocity it is efficiency. WOW yep spend big $$ to play and save a few cents per round.

Plot it out a 7-08 or 7x57 are more efficient than a 280 the various 280 wildcats etc. The mags will get less efficient as they get bigger. Yes the 7STW Umag etc have higher velocity but burn a lot more powder for small gains. The plot of velocity vs capacity will form two lines that breaks over in the 76-77gr range.

For if you want KISS buy factory and be done with it. The various wildcats won't really gain you anything but great campfire talk.

So if you want max efficiency for a 7mm bullet look for a case in the 76-77gr range. Wildcat S&H etc. Want max velocity then get a large case and be happy.

For the vast majority of the shooters, hunters etc will shoot within their cartridges Max Point blank range. That animal won't know if he was hit by a 7-08 280 7mag or STW. Yes there are a few that want to stretch their barrel so go for it.

There is no wrong answer. Simply what was the original plan or question.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The only problem I have with any 06 based case wilcat is we still have the 30-06 and none of them will beat it from a practical standpoint or from a hunting standpoint..Its just that I have 3 30-06s and that's my only justification for a 280 Ackley IMP, but if one takes a serious look at a 30-06 Ackley, well there ya go.

I built myself a 280 AI on a Springfield action and wish I had built it as a 30-06!

I gave up using any .300win mag when I converted from .338win to .338/300win. Basically an "improved" chambering. Like reaming a .458 to a Lott. No shoulder dimension changes though.

As far as the .280rem AI goes, I studied it for years, as was always appealing. Yet, I live in AK and if needed anything, it was a 200gr or heavier bullet.

The .338-06AI is close enough to the .338win for me, and the .30-06AI will stand-in for the .300win mag.


If had it to do over, would likely have selected a .338/284 as the case is more versatile for bullet seating. Would go with a long action. The Hodgdon 26 manual cites the .30/284 and .30-06 data as interchangeable. .284win and .280rem ought be also, except you get the standard 35deg shoulder versus the 22deg of the 06 derived .280rem.

I would go .284 over .280rem and not worry about the AI. Get that nice 6.5/284 Lapua brass or Winchester brass in .284... Much better selection of dies. Better bullet seating options, better case design if precision is one of your goals.

I no longer care much for shooting off the bench or match bolt guns. But the .338-06AI is a Shilen installed match barrel with trued action and boltface, so it is rather historic. Not too happy with the McMillan stock, but who knows? Maybe the 3rd replacement for defect will be a charm?

With heavy bullets the 06 derived AI ctgs are superb, if you want to shoot varmint weights, the AI gains you nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

The 7 Rem Mag has been around for decades

I don't believe anyone is saying that a 280AI will beat a larger case such as the 7mag. The only advantage a 280AI or any of the other 06 based 7mm wildcats will give you is 5 down instead of 3. You can "normally" load the wildcats hot enough to equal a 7mag factory. But 7mag handloads loaded to equal pressure will win all day long.

If you simply want max velocity get a larger case. Simple.

I took the same 280 barrel, took it to RCBS, AI then 7mmJRS then my 280PDK. Yes for each 4% of capacity I gained 1% velocity. Could I match my own 7mag handload. Nope.

But for some of us it isn't max velocity it is efficiency. WOW yep spend big $$ to play and save a few cents per round.

Plot it out a 7-08 or 7x57 are more efficient than a 280 the various 280 wildcats etc. The mags will get less efficient as they get bigger. Yes the 7STW Umag etc have higher velocity but burn a lot more powder for small gains. The plot of velocity vs capacity will form two lines that breaks over in the 76-77gr range.

For if you want KISS buy factory and be done with it. The various wildcats won't really gain you anything but great campfire talk.

So if you want max efficiency for a 7mm bullet look for a case in the 76-77gr range. Wildcat S&H etc. Want max velocity then get a large case and be happy.

For the vast majority of the shooters, hunters etc will shoot within their cartridges Max Point blank range. That animal won't know if he was hit by a 7-08 280 7mag or STW. Yes there are a few that want to stretch their barrel so go for it.

There is no wrong answer. Simply what was the original plan or question.

The 7mm Rem Mag and most other magnums are regarded as over-bore, which is to say not optimum for performance mostly due to smallish bore diameter in ratio to case capacity. Might be an old fashioned term these days; few guys are concerned about burning throats and accelerated barrel wear. The .264win mag was the posterboy of overbore for standard magnums.

Pretty much the optimum for barrel life and benchmark for precision and case balance is the .308winchester. The .308 variants are even better when AI'd IF you're going with heavier bullets (again there's the rub). If going to shoot a .260rem with 142gr SMK or super Bergers, then no reason not to go AI if going for 1000yd effectiveness. The 7mm-08 is about the same, but them 6.5mm bullets are basically about the best out there these days, until you get into the .750 BC and up .338 match stuff.

I would say best all-around for years of plinking, targeting, and just bang it's dead fun; the .308 variants are the ticket; and you go AI with premium bullets if you plan to shoot elk once in a while.

If elk is your ticket and you got other guns for walk-about, plinking, targeting; then who cares about barrel life or ctg efficiency?

There are guys who love the 6.5-06, and 6.5x55 which is also AI'd a lot. Nothing to gain there by not going with the 6.5x284 though. I would also choose it over a magnum, tgere tgere us that .284win...