This is amazing. Out of 100 votes cast the results are all but five believe the gain is less than 300 Feet/second and 70 believe less than 200 feet/sec.

The .300 mag has a much larger case than the .30-06 and still much greater than the .30-06 AI, yet when someone tells us that his .30-06 AI nets him 300 ft/sec no one says a word.

Hey vapo, I figured about 200 ft/sec gain so I voted in the 101-200 column but could have gone the next higher up. A very interesting poll as I never heard of a 22" .300 mag. but then we don't see many .30-06 rifles in 26" tubes either.

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The reason for the seemingly same velocity is the fact that you can let the bullet out of the 308 norma allowing for a fuller case capacity with larger bullets as compared to the 300's deeper bullet seating depth.

Using the 180 accubond of the orginal question and equal OAL the bullet in the 300wmag will be seated .066" further. So IF the two cases had equal gross capacity because of the deeper seated bullet the 308Norma would have great net capacity.

The 300wmag is on the order of 8% larger gross capacity. From memory I thought the net with equal OAL was still on the order of 7% larger.

Push come to shove the 300wmag will win. However there is nothing you shoot that will ever tell the slight difference in velocity.

I shoot a 308Norma instead of the 300 simply because I like to be different I prefer the case and it goes will with its big sister the 358Norma sitting next to it in the safe.

Robert Wilde, didn't you know that "AI" is magic?? You can even write "AI" on the side of a cartridge with a magic marker and get an extra 50-75fps increase.

I think the real reason no one corrects the AI shooters is it gets tedious after a time. Kinda like the folks that claim to shoot sub MOA groups off the hood of their trucks with store bought ammo. Why bother?

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Two perfectly identical rifles Poll

I'm still trying to figure out how this is possible if the 2 rifles or of different calibers. I mean perfectly identical, but different is the perception

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You can even write "AI" on the side of a cartridge with a magic marker and get an extra 50-75fps increase.

Now that's funny....thanks for that!

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Originally posted by Hot Core:

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will load both rounds with the slowest powders available that also generate 65,000 PSI and no more than that.

Hey Mick, I did not read that as meaning, "use the Same Powder" in bof`um. Looks like to me the premise is to Optomize the Load for each(identical, but different, as Jim C. pointed out) rifle with the Best Power for each Cartridge.

That would be H1000 in the 300WinMag and maybe H450, H4350, or H4831 in the 30-06(I'm sure you know all of that though). Oh yes, and Hot Dogs for roasting in front of the pitiful, sawed-off 300WinMag stub of a barrel.
-----

By the way, if your Super Wham-O Dyne Ballistics Program shows more F/P Energy in the 300WinMag using the same Bullet at the same Velocity, then something is bad Wrong with the software.

Good Point Hot Core, I was thinking about the powder problem today myself.

Doc mentioned using RE 22, why not? I’ll use it for the 30-06.

I wouldn’t normally use such a slow powder as H1000 in the 300 Win but why not?

I’ll run it through QL again.

So I guessed low, I guessed less than 100 FPS.
Thought process:
Volume, .300 WM > .30-06;
Pressure equal;
Therefore more gas behind .300 bullet means more pressure longer, giving a faster bullet.
With the theoreticals all being equal the win mag would be faster just no numbers to guess with.

Thanks to Mike and QL for providing numbers.

Just in case anyone wonders about the slightly higher chamber pressure in the 300’s numbers, here you go.

Well Mike.....I'm new to QL....(too darn cheap to buy a copy)....but maybe will have to break down and learn it...LOL

Let me see.....Am I correct here that the difference is about 128 FPS?....at least according to QL?....I didn't see barrel length...can you educate me on this....

I must say....QL is a very impressive tool....thanks for posting this.

.300 Win Mag, case length 2.825, Cap. 94.4 gr H2O

.30-338 WinMag, case length 2.5, Cap. 82.1 gr H2O

.30-06, case length 2.494, Cap. 67.1 gr H2O

Is the .30-06 case so much more efficient than the .300 Win Mag to only loose about 150 fps at max loads with the same bullet? Why can the .30-338 be loaded to almost exactly the same speeds as the .300 WM? Is there more consideration for case design/effeciency that needs to be considered?

In my opinion it simply shows tha H1000 is to slow for the 300wmag. Simply asking QL for the best powder with a 65,000psi limit and 110% case capacity there are 26 powder listed before H1000. With calculated velocity in the 3150fps range. On the flip side RL22 or MRP are right at the top of the 30-06 scale but need to be compressed to around 115%.

To me for apples to apples you should be willing to compress the load as much in each case as well as use the smae pressure limit.

Yes the 06 is more efficient than the 300 just like the 308 is more efficent. You need more powder in the larger case to simply reach the 308 velocity.

Have you tried H-1000 in the 300 Mag?

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Originally posted by vapodog:
Well Mike.....I'm new to QL....(too darn cheap to buy a copy)....but maybe will have to break down and learn it...LOL

Let me see.....Am I correct here that the difference is about 128 FPS?....at least according to QL?....I didn't see barrel length...can you educate me on this....

I must say....QL is a very impressive tool....thanks for posting this.

Vapodog, QL is a fascinating program. It has its problems but it’s usually “right in there” with “typical” bottleneck cartridges. Anything QL tells you is not a proven fact. You always have to approach a QL prediction about any given load with caution. But when QL tells you the same thing over and over again as you change variables, you need to pay attention and think about it.

QL is not the final word or even an answer, but it has value in a discussion like this were we are kicking an idea around.

Back to your topic, I think we’re starting to exceeding true case capacity with the slow powders now.

Sorry, 22" barrel length.

I quess I forgot waht we were trying to determine. I posted my actual results from a 24" 06 barrel that I later turned to a 308Norma. Each loaded to what the same handloader (me) felt was maximum in both cases. In my case it was around 235fps difference. Same barrel same reloader. Add another 40-50fps if you want for a 300wmag.

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Originally posted by vapodog:
You have two identical rifles....both capable of holding immense pressure....both with the same barrel length...22"...

One is chambered for 30-06 and the other is chambered for the .300 Win Mag

You will use the 180 grain accubond in both rifles and have pressure measuring equipment and will load both rounds with the slowest powders available that also generate 65,000 PSI and no more than that.

Essentially the only difference between the two is chambering and powder.

Who really gives a darn. Both gets the job done on everything in NA equally well. I'd personaly rather choose a 200gr bullet.

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Who really gives a darn. Both gets the job done on everything in NA equally well. I'd personaly rather choose a 200gr bullet.

Thanks for that intelligent and well thought out post....

Did your parents raise some "front ends of horses" too?

Those are funny.

Reminds me of a poster from a couple years ago about how the 300 win mag was the shizam for all NA game and the 30-06 was anemic yet the bigger 30's were a waste of powder. LOL

I never really compared the 30's with each other much as when I go up in case size I usually went up in bullet weight as well.

My 30-06 I have set with a 150 at 3100 fps. I have my 300 win mag with 180's at 3150. When I had 300 ultras (five in all) I loaded 200's to 3200 fps.

What is the point of this thread anyway???

From the bottom line in the Quickload graphs it seems to be 20" not 22".

This is for fun, remember?

Thanks for putting the time in on the Software Mick.

RL-22??? Does the Software show the Erratic Burn as it approaches a Safe MAX Pressure?

Those sawed-off barrels really create a Logic Problem. Come to think of it, if Vapo just chopped off another 2" of each barrel and "AIed" the 30-06, it would probably outshoot the 300WinMag.

Maybe Bartsche told me that.

P.S. Love the Joules!

No point needed when your talking ballistics.

quote:

From the bottom line in the Quickload graphs it seems to be 20" not 22".

That graph is bullet travel not barrel length.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
In my opinion it simply shows tha H1000 is to slow for the 300wmag. Simply asking QL for the best powder with a 65,000psi limit and 110% case capacity there are 26 powder listed before H1000. With calculated velocity in the 3150fps range. On the flip side RL22 or MRP are right at the top of the 30-06 scale but need to be compressed to around 115%.

I'm all for the RL-22 in the .30-06....it compresses a bit but delivers exceptional performance. I'm getting a tad over 2,800 FPS with a 22" barrel and 180 grain bullets.

I was thinking H-1000 to be the best performer in the .300 Mag.....apparently not....can you please tell us what the optimum powders are?

Bear in mind that we're still talking about a 22" barrel as I'm considering rechambering a 22" .30-06 to .300 Win Mag.....but won't do it if the (nominal) gain is less than 200 FPS.

From evidence presented so far.....I doubt that the difference is over that!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
In my opinion it simply shows tha H1000 is to slow for the 300wmag. Simply asking QL for the best powder with a 65,000psi limit and 110% case capacity there are 26 powder listed before H1000. With calculated velocity in the 3150fps range. On the flip side RL22 or MRP are right at the top of the 30-06 scale but need to be compressed to around 115%.

I'm all for the RL-22 in the .30-06....it compresses a bit but delivers exceptional performance. I'm getting a tad over 2,800 FPS with a 22" barrel and 180 grain bullets.

I was thinking H-1000 to be the best performer in the .300 Mag.....apparently not....can you please tell us what the optimum powders are?

Bear in mind that we're still talking about a 22" barrel as I'm considering rechambering a 22" .30-06 to .300 Win Mag.....but won't do it if the (nominal) gain is less than 200 FPS.

From evidence presented so far.....I doubt that the difference is over that!

Well, here is what I did and you can do it too:

I bought a Ruger No1 in 30-06 but never shot it.
(you could work up '06 loads and record them)

I took my new rifle to Huntingtons Sportsmans Store and had the gunsmith (Tommy Miller) make me a "Thirty Magnum" (.30-338 Win Mag) and got some dies frim next door (RCBS) that were matched to once fired cases. Bob Post worked up the loads using .338 WM and .7mm RM cases and 180gr nosler partition bullets. We arrived at a safe maximum at 3,100 fps. Since I hate reloading, I gave the dies to a friend of mine who likes reloading and told him he could reload for me and I would build him a garage. Worked well. (You could then do the same thing and work up and record loads for the 30-338)

I left Oroville, California and ended up in Texas with a wildcat rifle and less than 25 rounds of ammunition and my dies in California and still had no desire to reload so I sold the dies, brass and ammo (here in classifieds) and took the rifle to a gunsmith nearby who rechambered it to .300 Win Mag so that I can shoot 'cross the counter' ammunition.

So Vapodog, you can do the same thing at a minimum of cost and be satisfied in your mind that you have done everything possible to determine the velocity differences in the big thirty caliber rounds. There just so happens to be a .30 Pegasus round out there that eats buckets of powder and spits out 180 gr bullets at about 3,5K fps.

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I was thinking H-1000 to be the best performer in the .300 Mag.....apparently not....can you please tell us what the optimum powders are?

I set the pressure at 65,000 and 110%. Using 63,000 or 115% didn't really change powder order just the velocity by maybe 20fps up or down. I think you can get your 200fps gain. Maybe 230-250. Remember I did the same thing but it was a 24" and I went to 308Norma gain was 235. Notice at 110% compression the H1000 is 5000 below the pressure limit. Take it to 115% you get over 3000 the couple other powders above it move up as well. In the 22" something like 7828, RL22 or RL25 MRP give you a higher potential gain. Sorry the data pulls together. IN a 24" the order stay basically the same everything just moves up about 55fps.


Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-25 109.1 81.7 5.29 3089 100.0 65000 14329 1.069
Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy) 105.2 84.8 5.49 3086 99.1 65000 15041 1.065
PB Clermont PCL 517 105.6 84.8 5.50 3085 99.1 65000 15027 1.065
Norma MRP 101.1 79.4 5.14 3085 99.9 65000 14897 1.079
SNPE Vectan SP 12 105.4 84.7 5.49 3085 99.1 65000 15001 1.066
Vihtavuori N560 102.9 79.1 5.13 3083 98.3 65000 15293 1.073
IMR 7828 SSC 101.7 78.6 5.09 3075 98.7 65000 14828 1.063
IMR 7828 107.5 78.6 5.09 3075 98.7 65000 14828 1.063
Accurate MAGPRO 103.1 82.5 5.35 3072 97.2 65000 15374 1.080
Vihtavuori N570 110.0 87.3 5.66 3062 94.3 59979 16422 1.108
ADI AR 2213 102.7 78.1 5.06 3061 98.6 65000 14683 1.061
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 103.2 78.5 5.09 3059 99.5 65000 14698 1.079
Raufoss RA15 103.2 78.5 5.09 3059 99.5 65000 14698 1.079
Alliant Reloder-22 103.2 78.5 5.09 3059 99.5 65000 14698 1.079
Winchester WXR 106.0 78.9 5.11 3058 99.4 65000 14715 1.079
ADI AP 2214 106.5 83.2 5.39 3055 98.9 65000 14495 1.059
Norma MRP 2 110.0 82.8 5.37 3045 98.7 61994 15198 1.105
Rottweil R905 104.4 78.0 5.06 3028 98.3 65000 14360 1.078
Bofors RP5 NT ~approximation 106.3 81.6 5.29 3026 96.9 65000 14475 1.064
ADI AR 2209 99.6 74.5 4.83 3021 99.3 65000 13948 1.067
Alliant Reloder-19 100.1 75.4 4.88 3018 99.4 65000 14021 1.075
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 100.9 75.9 4.92 3012 99.4 65000 13922 1.075
Winchester 760 90.4 72.0 4.66 3010 99.9 65000 13617 1.082
Hodgdon H414 90.4 72.0 4.66 3010 99.9 65000 13617 1.082
Ramshot Hunter 95.7 74.4 4.82 3009 100.0 65000 13534 1.081
Norma 204 95.0 73.9 4.79 2997 99.2 65000 13675 1.074
Raufoss RA4 98.1 73.9 4.79 2997 99.2 65000 13675 1.074
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 98.1 73.9 4.79 2997 99.2 65000 13675 1.074
Alliant Reloder-17 88.2 69.6 4.51 2996 100.0 65000 12775 1.070
Hodgdon H4831 105.4 77.1 5.00 2996 98.0 65000 13846 1.071
Hodgdon H4831 SC 101.3 77.1 5.00 2996 98.0 65000 13846 1.071
Hodgdon H1000 110.0 81.9 5.31 2990 98.3 60747 14275 1.093

quote:

Alliant Reloder-25 109.1 81.7 5.29 3089 100.0 65000 14329 1.069

Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy) 105.2 84.8 5.49 3086 99.1 65000 15041 1.065

IMR 7828 SSC 101.7 78.6 5.09 3075 98.7 65000 14828 1.063

IMR 7828 107.5 78.6 5.09 3075 98.7 65000 14828 1.063

Alliant Reloder-22 103.2 78.5 5.09 3059 99.5 65000 14698 1.079

Thanks Ramrod.....I copied/pasted this to my notebook for future use.

From this one might conclude that there's about 250 FPS advantage to the .3006 from the .300 Win Mag....at least theoretically and in a 22" barrel......less than a 10% gain.....

This also translates to a gain of energy at 500 yards of about 340 ft-lb

There is also a trajectory gain but IMO it's not important as both still require a rangefinder and proper holdover.

quote:

This also translates to a gain of energy at 500 yards of about 340 ft-lb

There is also a trajectory gain but IMO it's not important as both still require a rangefinder and proper holdover.

Yep pretty much what I found. I converted my 06 to 308Norma simply because I had found a steal on a 358Norma and I wanted to have both. Best I can tell that etra 200fps hasn't killed a thing that wouldn't have dropped with the 06.

Hey Vapo, If it were me, I'd leave the 30-06 as is(unless it is a Mouser or rag P-64 M70, then it would be Trade Bait). Then I'd buy a Remington M700 S&S 300WinMag or perhaps a 26" Wby U-Lt 300WinMag. And stock up on H1000, Retumbo, 180gr and 200gr Non-Politically Correct Bullets.

Vapodog, I’ve owned the 300 as I’m sure you have. I’ve had fun with this thread running things through QL, with Ramrod 340 being the realist on this subject with his copy of the program. I can’t understand why you want to take a 30-06, with a 22” tube, and re-chamber it to a 300 Winchester Magnum? Done get me wrong, it’s your rifle you can do what you want with it but it seems to me that this is a little akin to chambering a TC Encore handgun barrel in 45/70. It works, with a lot of muzzle blast and recoil but at nothing close to the round's full potential.

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I can’t understand why you want to take a 30-06, with a 22” tube, and re-chamber it to a 300 Winchester Magnum?

The reason is to achieve a 1500 ft-lb energy statistic at 500 yards. The .30-06 just makes it and I was hoping a .300 mag would be significantly better.....and it's simply not much better.

I do not want to give up on the handling and convenience of the short barrel. That feature is something I really like.

I have a .300 H&H in a 26" barrel.....it's a helluva shooter too but I just don't like it for mountain hunting. We all have our preferences don't we!!

I'm also looking at a 24" .300 weatherby Vanguard....priced reasonable and delivers enough over the .30-06 that it fills the bill for a 500 yard elk rifle. I need another rifle like another hole in my head!

LOL...like everyone else....I want a short light weight rifle with very little recoil, high long range energy, extreme accuracy, and cheap as well as very good looking.....simple as that!

Maybe I should just learn to shoot my elk with a .223.....

Was there ever a "final" answer?
I like my .300WM but it tends to beat me up a little. I have a .270 that shoots well and does not beat me up too bad. Both had the same trajectory but obviously different energy levels with a 180 gr and 130 gr bullet.

I like the .300 on bigger stuff that needs to be DRT. The .270 kills about everything we shoot at also.

Oh well...

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Was there ever a "final" answer?

LOL.....that's the best reply ever!!!

Of course not....we'd have nothing to discuss if there was!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
...Maybe I should just learn to shoot my elk with a .223.....

If you find the Recoil to be a bit Harsh with it, here is a Projectile that would help abate it.

And if that is still too much Recoil, you could go with this, because it is "All about Placement"!!!

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Maybe I should just learn to shoot my elk with a .223..... jumping

I don’t have any “experience” with that. You'll have to talk to Teancum about that

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Ramrod 340 being the realist

Most positive thing I've been called in weeks.

Let me wish one more positive statement… Merry Christmas.

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Originally posted by MickinColo:
Let me wish one more positive statement… Merry Christmas.

When one says merry Christmas as in "May the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ be a blessing unto you" It comes as a very warm greeting.....thank you and I'd like to extend it to everyone that enjoys gun talk and having a bit of fun here.

Merry Christmas to you all!