You have two identical rifles....both capable of holding immense pressure....both with the same barrel length...22"...

One is chambered for 30-06 and the other is chambered for the .300 Win Mag

You will use the 180 grain accubond in both rifles and have pressure measuring equipment and will load both rounds with the slowest powders available that also generate 65,000 PSI and no more than that.

Essentially the only difference between the two is chambering and powder.

Question:
What do you expect the difference in muzzle velocity to be.

Choices:
000-100 FPS
101-200 FPS
201-300 FPS
301-400 FPS

 

I did have two identical Brno ZKK 600 rifles. BOTH in 270 Winchester.

And with identical handloads one was a good 40-60fps faster than the other.

So in answer to your poll there are too many variables.

FWIW a better test would be to do all the load testing in the 30-06 then rechamber it to 300 Winchester Magnum.

I would nevertheless expect at equal pressure the 300 Winchester Magnum to be slightly faster as:

1) It is a "better" case design

2) It has a greater capacity therefore should burn more powder than the 30-06 for the same pressure.

But if you allow for the inbuilt 40-60 fps that I had with my two Brno rifles I'd say that a figure of 50-150 fps would be more likely.

I wasn't aware there was an AR "meltdown" in 2010...

As to the question, the answer is 201-300 fps all fantasy aside.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
FWIW a better test would be to do all the load testing in the 30-06 then rechamber it to 300 Winchester Magnum.

One can use that description if one chooses....It was my intention that the experiment be the same as this you described here.

Well the two I loaded for were 24" but loading to where I felt comfortable it was a little over 200gain. A shorter barrel might pull it below 200 difference.

A 1 for 4 will give you 250FPS which I think would be optimistic.


If interested I can see if I still have the 06 data for the barrel that became my 308Norma. It was a simple reamer job a swapped bolt.

I picked 0 - 100.

I have a 300 win mag Beretta Mato with a 24" barrel and have reloaded and shot a 30-06 Beretta Mato with a 24" barrel.

Typically it was really pushing it to get 2800 fps with a 180 gr bullet in 30-06, although I did do it several times. With my 300 win mag I can load to and exceed 3100 fps with ease. Both with RL22 and Fed215 primers.

Pretty much holds true for all 30-06's and 300 win mags, IME

Rather have a question> How much drop will the 3006 have at 3 hunert yards compared to the 300 magicum ?
Oh,, and how much more would it cost for the extra powder in the 300 magicum

What if a guy with a 308 shot first?


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quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Typically it was really pushing it to get 2800 fps with a 180 gr bullet in 30-06, That's the same for me.....2800 is close to the end of the road for a .30-06


although I did do it several times. With my 300 win mag I can load to and exceed 3100 fps with ease. Both with RL22 and Fed215 primers.

Pretty much holds true for all 30-06's and 300 win mags, IME

So you're saying more like an advantage of 300 FPS?....same barrel length etc

quote:

Originally posted by JD Miller:
Rather have a question> How much drop will the 3006 have at 3 hunert yards compared to the 300 magicum ?
Oh,, and how much more would it cost for the extra powder in the 300 magicum

What if a guy with a 308 shot first?


.


.

Are we having fun tonight or what?...

OK in the one data point category. I had a MKX 30-06 I converted to 308 Norma. What I did was work up what I felt was a max load for the 06 with 180 accubond seconds using some Norma brass I had.(Norma will have a touch more case capacity) Max was 2880. No hard bolt lift but marking on the case head. I backed down to 2840 for accuracy with no signs what so ever.(I also didn't keep it as an 06 long enough to measure case life) It was August in Houston. I then reamed the barrel to 308 Norma and swapped the bolt. In this rifle I got up to 3120 but accuracy was going away. Tried at least 3 powders. Accuracy load is 3075fps.

I've loaded 300wmag for 2 M70s. They would do 3100+ but I found it easier to tune the boss at 3050. They aren't mine and I'm not sure of the actual barrel length with the boss.

So 250+/- maybe a little more. However with a 22" the 300wmag might suffer a touch more than the 06. I have no data to compare.

Remember brass type will have an impact. I think there is about 7grs(around 8%) swing between 300wmag brands.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

Are we having fun tonight or what?...

Yes

Got to force myself to have fun



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A weighted average of the poll now shows a gain of 168 FPS

If one rounds that to 200 and gives it a +/- 100 he covers all but one vote.....

seems fairly uniform so far!

Interesting question Vapodog, so I played with the question in QL. There is a difference in M.V. of around 129 fps (300 Winchester is the fastest). That’s because the 30-06 is incapable of a 100% burn with the amount of powder it needs to achieve 65,000 psi.

On the other hand if you increase the barrel length of the 30-06 to a point were it can achieve 100% burn (26”) there is no difference in velocity but the 300 Winchester with the 22 inch barrel still has greater muzzle pressure and ft lbs.

A couple of things I see that makes the comparison difficult are:

65,000 psi is closer to the normal operating pressure of the 300 Win then it is for the 30-06.

Case capacity is 24% (if I did the math right) greater in the 300 Win.

The differential will only be the additional burn time of the additional powder which would equate to less than 200 fps difference IMO.

What if the .06 had a 28" barrel? Just for another comparison, and loaded with a slow powder and magnum primer (Re22/215M).

Bore exit velocity is a function not only of max pressure but also of area under the pressure curve.

Velocity being related to the acceleration being applied to the projectile and acceleration being a function of the force applied to the projectile.

F=MA and P=F/unit surface area

Velocity = the integral of acceleration from t0 to t1

and all that.

So what's the point? That poor horse has been beat enough, hasn't it? Chrono's and software programs have thoroughly trashed or answered that question.

The '06 is SAAMI spec'ed at 60KPSI and the 300WM is 64KPSI SAAMI plus 20 some percent larger.

The problem is we keep comparing apples and cumquats or just want to stir the pot with some comparison question.

I expect questions like this from newbees, but not from knowledgeable people such as yourself...not meant as a diss or flame...for a forum with people with vast knowledge, this one leaves much to be desired...all that information is just wasted on posturing and pecker waving.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Bore exit velocity is a function not only of max pressure but also of area under the pressure curve.

Velocity being related to the acceleration being applied to the projectile and acceleration being a function of the force applied to the projectile.

F=MA and P=F/unit surface area

Velocity = the integral of acceleration from t0 to t1

and all that.

This is a guy that was paying attention in his integral calculus class!

At least in thoery, given two identical rifles except for chambering and required max pressure of 65,000 PSI....the area under the curve is the only variable that can show a velocity differential.

The .300 Mag will allow for a bit more of a slower burning powder to increase the area under the curve.

I can only guess.....a net difference of 200 FPS seems like a lot!!!but is probably close.

The .300 Mag has quite a bit larger boiler room!

So, the rifles are identical...but different! ???

Interesting what you remember from a physics course you took 46 years ago. I found I can still derive most of that stuff for acceleration.

Nothing quite like converting a little chemical energy into work to liven up an afternoon

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
So, the rifles are identical...but different! ???

You and Hot Core need to get together and have the Carolina water tested!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
... the 30-06 is incapable of a 100% burn with the amount of powder it needs to achieve 65,000 psi.

Hey Mick, Go to a slightly Faster Powder. Something like Blue Dot and use a Reduced Load. It has the potential to reach some fairly High Pressures - according to those who have Ka-Boomed their rifles with it.

quote:

there is no difference in velocity but the 300 Winchester with the 22 inch barrel still has greater muzzle pressure and ft lbs.

Same Velocity, but more f/p energy? Did you change to a HEAVIER Bullet?
-----

quote:

By Jim C.:
So, the rifles are identical...but different! ???

quote:

Whammed in by Vapo:
have the Carolina water tested!!!

Jim caught you (and you can give credit to the water).

Hey Hot Core....isn't there some Killing season open in the Carolina?...you know....deer or mouse or something?...

Hasn't this sort of thing been discussed (but never explained) before?? They would take two rifles, number 1 and 2, out of a factory, that were supposed to be identical in every aspect and one would shoot faster/slower than the other? With identical ammo?

Without getting all twisted up in this, I'm gonna guess that the 300WM is going to be faster for several reasons by at least 100-200fps.

If you red lind a 30-06, shooting a 180, you may get 2900fps; taking the same 180, you can easily get 3100 from a 300WM.

quote:

What if a guy with a 308 shot first?

That's funny, thanks for the laugh. I needed that tonight.

What would happen in they ran 60K? Should still be 200 fps difference, just not as fast correct?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
... the 30-06 is incapable of a 100% burn with the amount of powder it needs to achieve 65,000 psi.

Hey Mick, Go to a slightly Faster Powder. Something like Blue Dot and use a Reduced Load. It has the potential to reach some fairly High Pressures - according to those who have Ka-Boomed their rifles with it.

quote:

there is no difference in velocity but the 300 Winchester with the 22 inch barrel still has greater muzzle pressure and ft lbs.

Same Velocity, but more f/p energy? Did you change to a HEAVIER Bullet?
-----

quote:

By Jim C.:
So, the rifles are identical...but different! ???

quote:

Whammed in by Vapo:
have the Carolina water tested!!!

Jim caught you (and you can give credit to the water).

LOL on the Blue Dot suggestion.

Why there is more muzzle energy and ft lbs is an interesting question and one which I can only surmise an answer. QL is only showing around 500 psi and a 100 ft lbs difference between the 30-06 with a 26” barrel and the 300 with a 22”. My test was with a 180 grain Hornady BTSP and IMR 4831 powder. My guess as to why there was a difference? Better efficiency with a slow powder in those volumes. Although I haven’t tried, I’m sure I could skew the 30-06’s values by using a different powder.

quote:

What would happen in they ran 60K? Should still be 200 fps difference, just not as fast correct?

Yes dropping only to 60,000. You might be able to reduce the pressure down to a point the larger case becomes a disadvantage. I've never tried it.

quote:

Dropping only to 60,000. You might be able to reduce the pressure down to a point the larger case becomes a disadvantage. I've never tried it.

another guess.....:

At lower pressures we may reach a point that (assuming both cartridges were confined to the same pressure) the .30-06 case has the capacity to provide all the gas needed to keep the pressure up all the way to the end of the barrel.....the larger case is of no value then...merely wasted boiler room.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
What if the .06 had a 28" barrel? Just for another comparison, and loaded with a slow powder and magnum primer (Re22/215M).

Doc, by adding another 2 inches to the 30-06 barrel, making it 28”, you increase ft lbs by almost 100. The muzzle pressure drops by about 800 psi, and the velocity increases about 40 fps. This is not what I would call a benchmark load for the 30-06. It was only intended to meet Vapodog’s poll criteria .

In my experience 300+ is more like it. Add another 250 fps for a 300 rum LOL.

What would the differences be between 30-06 and say the .30-338 Win Mag (.30-7mm Rem Mag)?

The .30-338 has less case capacity than the .300 Win Mag yet seems to be able to be loaded to the same velocities and additionally seems to be somewhat more accurate.

This is a very interesting discussion in that I believe that as far as North American Game animals are concerned, the key to the retirement system is a 180gr bullet leaving the muzzle at or in excess of 3,000fps.

quote:

What would the differences be between 30-06 and say the .30-338 Win Mag (.30-7mm Rem Mag)?

a 30-338 is basically a 308 Norma. See my actual data above. Pushed to the limit the 300wmag will always better a 30-338 by a touch all things equal.

I've loaded for a couple 300wmags and the 308Norma I've never seen an accuracy advantage. But I'm just one data point.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Hey Hot Core....isn't there some Killing season open in the Carolina?...you know....deer or mouse or something?...

Here are the answers in the order of the questions (so as not to confuse anyone ):Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

quote:

will load both rounds with the slowest powders available that also generate 65,000 PSI and no more than that.

Hey Mick, I did not read that as meaning, "use the Same Powder" in bof`um. Looks like to me the premise is to Optomize the Load for each(identical, but different, as Jim C. pointed out) rifle with the Best Power for each Cartridge.

That would be H1000 in the 300WinMag and maybe H450, H4350, or H4831 in the 30-06(I'm sure you know all of that though). Oh yes, and Hot Dogs for roasting in front of the pitiful, sawed-off 300WinMag stub of a barrel.
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By the way, if your Super Wham-O Dyne Ballistics Program shows more F/P Energy in the 300WinMag using the same Bullet at the same Velocity, then something is bad Wrong with the software.

quote:

Originally posted by RonE:
What would the differences be between 30-06 and say the .30-338 Win Mag (.30-7mm Rem Mag)?

The .30-338 has less case capacity than the .300 Win Mag yet seems to be able to be loaded to the same velocities and additionally seems to be somewhat more accurate.

This is a very interesting discussion in that I believe that as far as North American Game animals are concerned, the key to the retirement system is a 180gr bullet leaving the muzzle at or in excess of 3,000fps.

The reason for the seemingly same velocity is the fact that you can let the bullet out of the 308 norma allowing for a fuller case capacity with larger bullets as compared to the 300's deeper bullet seating depth. The 300 would be faster with lighter bullets but not by much.

Sorry the 30-338 thing doesnt make sense. The O.A.L. of the 30-338 and 300 win mag would be the same. I would figure an identical rifle would have an identical mag box length. With the bullet the same distance from the primer the 300 win mag would have more case capacity behind it.

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8122723/