Understanding and using Mil-Dot Reticles

We are currently blessed with more Reticle options than has ever been available. Most work well for a single task and some work well for multiple tasks. Thin crosshair reticles and thin duplex reticles work fine for shooting paper targets and do right well on Varmints during the daylight hours. Changing to a heavy duplex reticle allows the Hunter to see the Point-of-Aim on Game significantly better in overcast, low light and Twilight conditions. And the Duplex designs allow for some Range Estimation on known size Game when using a Variable Power Scope design. There are also variations of the old German Post which typically has a heavy picket in the low vertical position and perhaps heavy pickets in both horizontal positions.

All the previously mentioned Reticle styles work well for their intended task with relatively close shots. And for many years they have been pressed into longer shots using two methods:
1. The shooter simply learned how much to Hold Over to compensate for his specific Load.
2. Target Knobs have been designed in or added on as an aftermarket accessory, which allows the shooter to Crank-In the necessary compensation for Bullet Drop at a specific distance.

Both methods have worked well for a very long time. The Hold Over method is much quicker, but the Crank-In method is more precise.

Then we come to Multi-Crosshair reticles and Mil-Dot designs. Here is a link to a Method typically used to explain Mil-Dot Usage. I can see how that can be a bit confusing to the first time user. Hopefully this Procedure will be a bit easier to understand, and explain the flexibility of the excellent Mil-Dot Reticle Design.

NOTE: For the rest of this Procedure, it is important to understand that what is said for the Mil-Dots can be applied to any Multi-Crosshair Reticle design. You are not restricted to a single Load as the scope manufacturers try to make the buyer believe. You get to select your Load with any Cartridge and then create appropriate Drop Charts for your specific Load.

Mil-Dots allow the shooter to Estimate Range quickly without making Scope Power adjustments. And they allow the shooter to quickly select both a Hold Over and Windage Compensation amount for a specific Load. Mil-Dots work extremely well, are quick to use and easy to understand.

However, there is often a bit of confusion on how to get an accurate Mil-Dot Drop Chart created. Speaking about using Mil-Dots “in Mils” (or Mil-Radians) really creates confusion for most folks, so I've found it best to just explain it in Inches. There are many ways to take advantage of Mil-Dots and that flexibility is what can lead to the confusion. As long as you understand that we simply go from Guesstimated Measurements to Verified Measurements, you will have the Key to the understanding.

Verifying the Spacing

First off, you will need to determine what the actual measurements of your Mil-Dots happen to be at different distances. The manufacturers try to make them 3.6″ at some specific Power(normally 10x). The manufacturers do fairly well at this, but as in anything man-made, there is the occasional error or variance which can lead to false measurements. So, this is how we Verify the Mil-Dot Spacing.

NOTE: You may choose to set your Mil-Dots at a Power other than 10x, or at a different spacing. If so, that flexibility is as easy to do as making all the Settings for a Standard Mil-Dot spacing of 3.6″.
Example: You might choose to set your Mil-Dot Spacing for 5″ and determine that works at 6x with your scope. Or maybe you would prefer a Mil-Dot Spacing of 3″ and determine that works at 12x. It is your choice, so don’t let anyone make you think it has to be “only” 3.6″. I will use 3.6″ through this Procedure so that people who want to use it in that method will not be intimidated. Just use the same “Logic” that will be discussed and you can set it wherever you desire.

Now, this can get confusing, but if they do not actually measure 3.6″, it doesn’t matter. In a Military situation where multiple people might be required to use the same Rifle at a moments notice, it would make a difference. Obviously, they all need to be trained to the same Method and the rifles set-up accordingly. But as a civilian, it really doesn’t matter what it measures – as long as you know what it is at a specific Power. And you can check this at different Powers to create both Range Estimation and Drop Charts specific to any Power you want.

Take a regular sheet of paper and lay it on it’s side. Make a straight 1″ BLACK line across the bottom. You will be using the Top edge of this line. Then go up the paper and make short 1″ BLACK lines so the Tops of them are at 3.3″, 3.4″, 3.5″, 3.6″, 3.7″, 3.8″, and 3.9″. Now verify that your Mil Dots actually measure 3.6″ at 100yds for some specific Scope Power. Or, choose 5″or 3″, what ever you desire. Do this by setting the Bottom of a Mil-Dot atop the Bottom Line and see where the Bottom of the next Mil-Dot above it aligns with the upper Black Lines.
NOTE: Some write-ups encourage you to use the Center of the Mil-Dot for this exercise, but it just isn’t as precise. You can “Set” the scope to read exactly 3.6″ by adjusting the Power.

If it is off just a bit, you can place a Witness Mark on the Power Adjustment Ring and another Witness Mark on the Scope Tube. Use a small brush and a bit of Paint to make the Witness Marks, because they can be easily removed if you desire to change your Settings at a later date.

To eliminate any confusion for those of you desiring to use Mil-Dots as the Military does, I’ll use 3.6″ between the center of each Dot (or Bar) which is the Standard. But, if you desire a different spacing, like having a 3″ Mil-Dot, you simply determine when the Mil-Dots are 3″ apart at a specific Power, then you just apply these same principles.

Most Mil Dot Reticles have the Dots (or Bars) running up, down, left and right. Left and Right can be used to estimate the amount of hold into the wind(Kentucky Windage), but this is a Learned Skill. No amount of Guessed-at, Calculated Ballistic Chart(CBC), data will compensate for actual Trigger Time. The only way to learn this is to do a lot of shooting in various wind conditions.

For the Dots (or Bars) running up and down, you have the option of using them any way you want. You can use them to Estimate Range to an object of a known size. And of course you can use them in multiple ways for Sighting-In and creating your specific Drop Chart.

Creating a Range Estimation Chart

You can chart the Range Estimation for any of the Powers on the Scope you desire. This is how the Standard 3.6″ Mil-Dot would look:
1 Mil-Dot = 3.6″ at 100yds
2 Mil-Dots = 7.2″ at 100yds
3 Mil-Dots = 10.8″ at 100yds
Likewise, 1 Mil-Dot = 3.6″ at 100yds, 7.2″ at 200yds, 10.8″ at 300yds

Or if you want 3″ Mil-Dots then you locate the Power on the scope where the distance between the Mil-Dots is 3″ (maybe 12x) and use that:
1 Mil-Dot = 3″ at 100yds
2 Mil-Dots = 6″ at 100yds
3 Mil-Dots = 9″ at 100yds
Likewise, 1 Mil-Dot = 3″ at 100yds, 6″ at 200yds, 9″ at 300yds, etc.

Estimating Range is easy to understand if you first think of an item at 100yds fitting between the Horizontal Cross-Hair and (the center of) the first Dot. Here is an example is using the Standard 3.6″ Mil-Dot:
If a 4.5″ object fits 1 Mil-Dot(like a Soda Can), then it is at ((4.5/3.6)*100 = 125yds. And if a 12″ object fits then it is at (12″/3.6″)*100 = 333yds. Or lets say a Deer (14″-16″) fits between 2.5 Mil-Dots, then it is ((15″/(3.6″*2.5))*100 = 167yds. (This will be less confusing with a Range Estimating Chart as you will see below.)

How about that flexibility I mentioned earlier for us Deer Hunters. Where I Hunt, the “takers” are normally 14″-16″ from the top of the Withers to the bottom of the Chest. Lets call it 15″. And let’s say we wanted our Range Estimation Chart to be for our Deer Hunting. No need to make it confusing at all, we simply make the Chart fit our needs.

Deer Range Estimation Chart (with 3″ Mil-Dots) for a 15″ Deer.
1 Mil-Dot = 500yds
1.1 Mil-Dots = 450yds
1.25 Mil-Dots = 400yds
1.4 Mil-Dots = 350yds
1.7 Mil-Dots = 300yds
2 Mil-Dots = 250yds
2.5 Mil-Dots = 200yds
3.3 Mil-Dots = 150yds
5 Mil-Dots = 100yds

Now, in order to do those Calculations, it only takes a couple of minutes with a Calculator. We use a simple Proportion Formula. Then we convert it to 3″ Mil-Dots by dividing the result by 3.

The Formula is the Height(or it can be the Width if you desire to measure in that direction) over a specific Yardage is equal to X over 100yds. Here is an example for a 15″ Deer at 400yds:

15″/400yds = X″/100yds We rewrite the Formula to: (15″*100yds)/400yds = X″ = 3.75″ Now we convert that to our 3″ Mil-Dot by: 3.75″/3″ = 1.25 Mil-Dots (see above Chart)

If we were converting that same 15″ Deer at 400yds to the Standard 3.6″ Mil-Dot then we would divide by 3.6″. Or 3.75″/3.6″ = 1.04 Mil-Dots or rounded to 1 Mil-Dot. Here is the same Range Estimation Chart using the Standard 3.6″ Mil-Dot:

Deer Range Estimation Chart(with Standard 3.6″ Mil-Dots)
0.8 Mil-Dot = 500yds
0.9 Mil-Dot = 450yds
1.0 Mil-Dot = 400yds
1.2 Mil-Dot = 350yds
1.4 Mil-Dot = 300yds
1.7 Mil-Dot = 250yds
2.1 Mil-Dot = 200yds
2.8 Mil-Dot = 150yds
4.2 Mil-Dot = 100yds

Nothing hard about it.

Creating a Verified Drop Chart

For creating the Drop Chart, you also need to select a specific Scope Power that you want to use for the majority of your Shooting. And you need a Specific Load(Case, Primer, Powder, and Bullet) that is known to be accurate in your rifle.

If you have access to a CBC, or a Load Manual, you can get an initial Guesstimate at the Drop Rate. This allows you to get onto the Target when you are actually shooting the Specific Load to create the Verified Drop Chart.

And I’ll make-up a BOGUS CBC for us to use:
100yds = 1.7″
200yds = 0.0″
300yds = -6.5″
400yds = -18.7″
500yds = -35.2″

So you go get all Zeroed at 200yds and then begin checking the Actual Drop Rate with 3-5 shot groups at the other yardages.

NOTE: When measuring the Drop Rate, we are interested in the Average Vertical Group Distance from the Point-of-Aim. Shooting at the corner of a Black Square simplifies this task. You draw a Horizontal line across the Bottom Edge of the Black Square and measure Straight Down to the Center of each Hole you shot in the Target from that Line. (Do not measure to each Hole at an angle from the Corner.)

Lets say you made 3-shots at 300yds:
Shot 1 = -6″
Shot 2 = -8″
Shot 3 = -7″
With an Average Drop of (6+8+7)/3= -7″

We look at the CBC and note the Actual Drop Rate is different from it – that is normal. The Computer(or back of the Manual) CAN NOT adjust itself for your Specific Load. You absolutely must create your own Drop Chart using your Specific Load in one Specific Rifle. Way too many variables to simply count on it being - close enough.

You shoot, measure and create your own:
Verified Drop Chart
100yds = 1.5″
200yds = 0.0″
300yds = -7″
400yds = -20″
500yds = -41″

There are a couple of ways to convert the above ACTUAL Drop Chart into a Mil-Dot Drop Chart:
1. You can use a French Curve to draw in the Arc on Graph Paper and Plot the corresponding Drop.
2. You can enter your Verified Drop Rate info into some CBCs and the data will now be very accurate.
3. You can simply do a Proportional Analysis using the data closest to the Verified Drop Chart which was shot with the specific Rifle and specific Load.

When you convert the above Chart to reflect the Mil Dots at a specific Scope Power, we will use a Proportional yardage development to keep it simple:
1. By sighting in at 200yds, we must make some minor adjustments to our Formula.
2. When the size of the Mil-Dot falls between a specific Yardage Range, we calculate using Numbers within that Range and then add the minimum yardage.

Since the Bullet Drop is not Linear, there are a couple of ways to get reasonably close with these numbers that are not complicated. In the first Example, we are using 3.6″ Mil-Dots. So the Mil-Dots would be 3.6″, 7.2″, 10.8″, 14.4″, and 18″ apart. And we will use the old Proportional Formula:

X/Known Yards = Y/Unknown Yards(Z) And we will have to vary the numbers to correspond to the actual yardages. Now from our Verified Drop Chart we

1 Mil-Dot = 3.6″, so (7″/100yds = 3.6″/Zyds) or (3.6″*100yds)/7″ = 51yds. Now we compensate for the 200yd Zero So that is 51yds + 200yds = 251yds

When we get ready to do the Calculation for the second Mil-Dot, we notice it will be beyond the 300yd Drop Rate. Here we add a bit of a Conversion Trick to the Calculation in order to keep these Calculated Values relatively close. The Conversion Trick is to simply work “within” the 300yds-400yds Drop Rate and act as if it was 200yds to 300yds. In order to do that we Subtract the Drop at 300yds from the Drop at 400yds (20″ - 7″ = 13″) and “13″ is now our 300yd-400yd X value” in the Formula. We will also convert the Mil-Dot Values that fall within the 300yd-400yd range by Subtracting the 300yd Drop Rate from them (7.2″-7″= 0.2″).

2 Mil-Dots = 7.2″, (7.2″-7″= 0.2″) So with the Conversions (13″/100yds = 0.2″/Zyds) or (0.2″*100yds)/13″ = 1.5yds, then 1.5yds + 300yds = 301.5yds = 302yds.
3 Mil-Dots = 10.8″, (10.8″-7″= 3.8″) So (13″/100yds = 3.8″/Zyds) or (3.8″*100yds)/13″ = 29yds, then 29yds + 300yds = 329yds.
4 Mil-Dots = 14.4″, (14.4″-7″= 7.4″) So (13″/100yds = 7.4″/Zyds) or (7.4″*100yds)/13″ = 57yds, then 57yds + 300yds = 357yds.
5 Mil-Dots = 18.0″, (18″-7″= 11″) So (13″/100yds = 11″/Zyds) or (11″*100yds)/13″ = 85yds, then 85yds + 300yds = 385yds.
When we reach 6 Mil-Dots, we are now falling between 400yds-500yds. So we must now redo our Trick to the Formula. Here we Subtract the 300yd -20″ from the 400yd -41″ (41″-20″ = 21″) and “21″ is now our 400yd-500yd X value” in the Formula. We will also convert the Mil-Dot Values that fall within the 400yd-500yd range by Subtracting the 400yd Drop Rate from them (21.6″-20″= 1.6″).

6 Mil-Dots = 21.6″, (21.6″-20″= 1.6″) So (21″/100yds = 1.6″/Zyds) or (1.6″*100yds)/21″ = 8yds, then 8yds + 400yds = 408yds.
7 Mil-Dots = 25.2″, (25.2″-20″= 5.2″) So (21″/100yds = 5.2″/Zyds) or (5.2″*100yds)/21″ = 25yds, then 25yds + 400yds = 425yds.

Our Guesstimated 3.6″ Mil-Dot Drop Chart beginning with the first Mil-Dot below the Horizontal Crosshair would look like:
1 Mil-Dot = 251yds
2 Mil-Dot = 302yds
3 Mil-Dot = 329yds
4 Mil-Dot = 357yds
5 Mil-Dot = 385yds
6 Mil-Dot = 408yds
7 Mil-Dot = 425yds

Just remember the Chart needs to be Verified by actual Shooting before attempting to use it on Game.

Now lets repeat the above, but use a 3″ Mil-Dot. Now our Mil-Dots run 3″, 6″, 9″, 12″, 15″, etc. And we will still use the Verified Drop Chart to work from.

1 Mil-Dot = 3″, so (7″/100yds = 3″/Zyds) or (3″*100yds)/7″ = 43yds. Now we compensate for the 200yd Zero So that is 43yds + 200yds = 243yds

Since the next Mil-Dot is still inside 7″, we will not do the Conversion Trick yet.

2 Mil-Dot = 6″, so (7″/100yds = 6″/Zyds) or (6″*100yds)/7″ = 86yds. Now we compensate for the 200yd Zero So that is 86yds + 200yds = 286yds

Our third Mil-Dot now falls between 300yd-400yd so we must once again use the Conversion Tricks. We once again Subtract the Drop at 300yds from the Drop at 400yds (20″ - 7″ = 13″) and “13″ is now our 300yd-400yd X value” in the Formula. We will also convert the Mil-Dot Values that fall within the 300yd-400yd range by Subtracting the 300yd Drop Rate from them (9″-7″= 2″).

3 Mil-Dots = 9″, (9″-7″= 2″) So (13″/100yds = 2″/Zyds) or (2″*100yds)/13″ = 15yds, then 15yds + 300yds = 315yds.
4 Mil-Dots = 12″, (12″-7″= 5″) So (13″/100yds = 5″/Zyds) or (5″*100yds)/13″ = 38yds, then 38yds + 300yds = 338yds.
5 Mil-Dots = 15″, (15″-7″= 8″) So (13″/100yds = 8″/Zyds) or (8″*100yds)/13″ = 62yds, then 62yds + 300yds = 362yds.
6 Mil-Dots = 18.0″, (18″-7″= 11″) So (13″/100yds = 11″/Zyds) or (11″*100yds)/13″ = 85yds, then 85yds + 300yds = 385yds.

When we reach 7 Mil-Dots, we are now falling between 400yds-500yds. So we must now redo our Trick to the Formula. Here we Subtract the 300yd -20″ from the 400yd -41″ (41″-20″ = 21″) and “21″ is now our 400yd-500yd X value” in the Formula. We will also convert the Mil-Dot Values that fall within the 400yd-500yd range by Subtracting the 400yd Drop Rate from them (21″-20″= 1″).

7 Mil-Dots = 21″, (21″-20″= 1″) So (21″/100yds = 1″/Zyds) or (1″*100yds)/21″ = 5yds, then 5yds + 400yds = 405yds.
8 Mil-Dots = 24″, (24″-20″= 4″) So (21″/100yds = 4″/Zyds) or (4″*100yds)/21″ = 19yds, then 19yds + 400yds = 419yds.

Our Guesstimated 3″ Mil-Dot Drop Chart beginning with the first Mil-Dot below the Horizontal Crosshair would look like:
1 Mil-Dot = 243yds
2 Mil-Dot = 286yds
3 Mil-Dot = 315yds
4 Mil-Dot = 338yds
5 Mil-Dot = 362yds
6 Mil-Dot = 385yds
7 Mil-Dot = 405yds
8 Mil-Dot = 419yds

Just remember the Chart needs to be Verified by actual Shooting before attempting to use it on Game.

So, let’s say you see a WHOPPER TROPHY Buck off in the distance. You absolutely positively have practiced shooting at long distance at least once a week or more during the Off Season. That means you have tightened your groups and now have some hard learned knowledge concerning the wind. You have set-up your scope to use 3.6″ Mil-Dots. You have Verified both the Range Estimating Chart and the Mil-Dot Drop Chart.

You look at the Deer through your Binoculars. You check the movement of the Weed Tops between you and the Deer and determine you need to hold about 1.5 Mil-Dots into the Wind.

You ease the Scope up and notice the Deer fits 1 Mil-Dot. You look at your Verified Deer 3.6″ Mil-Dot Range Estimating Chart and determine the Deer is 400yds away.

Next you look at your Verified 3.6″ Mil-Dot Drop Chart and notice the 5th Mil-Dot would be dead on at 385yds and the 6th Mil-Dot strikes at 408yds.

You decide the shot is too risky, turn and notice a World Class WHOPPER at 50yds and Blast him.

Thank you for that, Hot Core.

get a copy of US Army FM-23-10.

Hey Ricochet, You are welcome. If any of it looks like it would be confusing to a Beginner, let me know and I'll see if I can make it clearer.

I'd gotten a PM for the information, but have not heard back from the guy that asked for it. Don't know if it confused him more than he was or what happened.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
get a copy of US Army FM-23-10.

Hey KSTEPHENS, Feel free to add anything from that Document, a Link to it, or scan all of it into this thread if you believe it would help the Beginners understand how to use Mil-Dots. The more info, the better.
-----

Apparently some folks do not realize how easy it is to convert the Mil-Dots to dimensions which are not in Mil-Radians. For the folks who Deer Hunt inside 300yds, it really is difficult to beat a HEAVY Duplex on a High Power Variable Scope. Add a bit of Red or Green Illumination to the Small portion of the Duplex and it is as good as it gets for me.

But the guys who Hunt small Things at l-o-n-g distances will certainly have difficulty finding a better Reticle than a Mil-Dot because of the amount of flexibility they offer. I currently have two Scopes with Illuminated Mil-Dots. One is excellent and the other as good as a VariX-II(which I intend as a compliment).

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

FM 23-10

I will add that I feel the PM designed GEN II reticle to be far better that the STD army

Hey H C

Nice post. Next time try to put a little time and thought into it, will you!

You have thouroughly convinced me that I don't want a mil-dot scope. I'll just stick to the TDS Reticle, the RapidZ reticle or the MultiZero (download one of the videos to see how easy long range targeting can be).

Course my methods may not be as adaptable to any situation as your mil-dots, just don't forget your calculator!

Hot Core...

thanks for all that info Buddy...

Now armed with that and a couple of my Mil Dot scopes.. think how far I can stretch out some of those Blue Dot loads now!!!!!

Hot Core

Thankyou for posting. It is very useful information.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...Next time try to put a little time and thought into it, will you!

I could expand on it a bit if it would help you.

quote:

You have thouroughly convinced me that I don't want a mil-dot scope. I'll just stick to the TDS Reticle, the RapidZ reticle or the MultiZero (download one of the videos to see how easy long range targeting can be).

And you think that is easier than a good old Mil-Dot?

quote:

Course my methods may not be as adaptable to any situation as your mil-dots, just don't forget your calculator!

What's a "calculator"? That something you youngsters use?

A person should be able to do ANY of those calculations on the normal "Abacus" we have laying around the house. (I use Bailing Wire to hold the Beads in place.)

i practiced all summer one year on using the power ring and my standard duplex leupold 2.5-8 scope to figure out distance on deer by bracketing.
after much fun and finally getting pretty good at it i came to the conclusion that as long as i held on fur and dindnt hold the cross hair over the backline i could reasonable make a good solid hit on any deer out to 300-325 yards.
now i dont worry about distance. if they are 100 or closer i shoot them in the neck or head and if they are further i shoot them behind the shoulder. if they seem to be in exess of 250 yards I hold on the backline as a POA. it hasnt failed me yet.
but then again a kill zone on a whitetail or a pig isnt nearly as small as a prariedog.

Hey Seafire and Jon, You all are also welcome.

Hopefully it will be a bit of help if you have any of the Reticles with multiple Horizontal Indicators.
-----

By the way, Woods has a good point about there being other Designs that might work better for some folks. And it does take a bit of time to get the Charts ready and then Verify them. (I feel sure Woods is Verifing those fancy jobs too.)

If anyone wants to try a Mil-Dot scope, I'd recommend you might want to get a rather inexpensive one to start with and put it on something that you are sure won't tear it up. If you like it, you can move it to your 22LR for Squirrel, Rabbit and PD Hunting. And set it up so you are working at the Highest Power on the scope so there is only a small amout between each Mil-Dot - since the Drop Rate is so high.

Then get a really nice one for your HEAVIER Recoil rifle to help with those longer distance shots.

For those that have never shot beyond 200yd-300yd, there is a whole lot more to distance shooting than just figuring out how much the Bullet should Drop. It is easy to see just how much there is to Learn by actually practicing at distance.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills to all you folks.

It is confusing at first, and on going, if you don't use it all the time. A good souce, which costs money is www.shooterready.com where you can, as I did, buy a Long Range Shooting simulation CD. The exercises really make you know how much you really understand! I did buy a 20X SniperScope for long range use (up to 600 yards) but have yet to try it out.
Peter.

i'll have to remember that next time i take a quick running shot in the bush

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i'll have to remember that next time i take a quick running shot in the bush

Hey Butch, I'd greatly appreciate it if you would "highlight" the portion that got you to thinking the post was about "Women".

/

quote:

If anyone wants to try a Mil-Dot scope, I'd recommend you might want to get a rather inexpensive one to start

Tasco's ( Bushnell owned now) 2.5 x 10 vammint scope that is sold via Midway for $61.00 is a great example.. I have a couple of them...

My son has one mounted on a 243 this season.. and it worked real well at the range.. and has worked well in a couple of field days it was pouring down rain...

I also have one mounted on an ADL in 223.. and it makes a very well balanced package

Bets the heck out of, and is better backed, than those BSA pieces of junk...

Is there a list of manufactures settings or calibrations for mil-dot scopes ? ie: Bushnell is calibrated at what power , Leupold is at possibly another . Does anyone have this info ?

Hey ALF, Thank you. Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

If anyone wants to try a Mil-Dot scope, I'd recommend you might want to get a rather inexpensive one to start

Tasco's ( Bushnell owned now) 2.5 x 10 vammint scope that is sold via Midway for $61.00 is a great example.. ...

Hey Seafire, That is exactly the kind of Inexpensive I was talking about. If they make one with a Higher Power, you can normally get the "Increments between the Dots" down small enough that it would be a great asset for any of the PD Cartridges you might have with a "relatively high" Drop Rate.

But for $61 a guy could see if he likes the concept and not have a lot of money tied up in it.
-----

Hey CLL, I do not have that information, but if no one else has it either, you might contact both their Customer Service Depts and see if they can send you that info.

I've handled 6-10 different brands of scopes with Mil-Dots and the ones I looked at all seemed to have the 3.6" set at 10x. As I sit here thinking about it, I feel sure I did not look at any Mil-Dot scopes that had a smaller Power Range. I don't know if they are even offered below 10x, but they might be.

One Mil-Dot I have goes up to 24x, but I've not as yet measured how far the Dots really are apart on the top end. I need to do that though.

Best of luck to you.

I have the Bushnell Ledgend 5x15x40 , which has two dots between the 9x and 12x and two dots between the 12x and the 15x . Anyhow I will check the 10x dot first . Thanks
Im talking in referance to the power setting marks , not the reticle MIL-DOTS .

quote:

Originally posted by CLL:
I have the Bushnell Ledgend 5x15x40 , which has two dots between the 9x and 12x and two dots between the 12x and the 15x . Anyhow I will check the 10x dot first . Thanks
Im talking in referance to the power setting marks , not the reticle MIL-DOTS.

Hey CLL, If you make the Chart where I was talking about Verifying the Spacing, that will allow you to determine what those Scope Settings represent.

I've had a good many HEAVY Duplex Reticles in Leupold Scopes. Sent a bunch of older regular Duplex Reticles back to have them swapped many years ago. I was a bit surprised to find they seemed to "look different" in the spacing between the Vertical Pickets when they came back. Could not understand how Leupold could send out different HEAVY Duplex Reticles. Really aggravated me, because it meant I would not be able to remember a single set of Range Estimation results for all of those scopes. Each needed to be measured with the Chart. And so will yours.

Leupold lists how much space is "supposed to be" between the Pickets in the back of their yearly catalog. It just is not accurate for all the Leupolds I have. It is a real pain to have to re-think how much the spread is when I'm looking through the different scopes, but it just has to be done.

So, even if Bushnell provides that information in their catalog, or through Customer Service, I'd still encourage you to do your own dimensional Verification with a Chart.
-----

To the guy who originally PMed me about Mil-Dots, I have responded to you, but since I've not heard back from you, I suspect you might have your "Notifications" turned OFF in your Profile.

hey - quick running shots is about all i get anymore

Howdy all!

Found this very informative thread that was the product of a ton of hard work by Hot Core. If any of you have taken the time to compose an informative thread for the sake of others, you know how time-consuming and difficult it is to be thorough. He did a great job.

I hope I can compose a reply that will do this thread justice.

My reply has to do with the advances in technology that have occured since the original post. The advances have been made not only in devices such as scopes and reticles, but in rangefinding optics. Portable computer ballistic programs capable of gathering current atmospheric data and compensating for any discrepencies between the location and conditions at load development and the conditions at your current location of use are also available at nominal cost.

There are several programs available that can be run on an iPhone or iTouch, and several that can be run on a PDA. This JBM link lists many available for your home computer or your portable "in the field" computer.

I happen to use BulletFlight from Knight's Armament. It will run on my iPhone and is a military-grade ballistic computer that provides quick solutions in the field. Click on that link for detailied information and further instructions.

The program comes with pre-set data for commonly used military and sporting cartridges and allows for the input of hundreds of additional entries of any cartridge you may be using. It has a bullet data base with just about every bullet manufactured complete with Ballistic Coefficients ready to import into your entry. The program has the ability in the utilities section to calculate projectile stability, calculate a bullet's BC from drop, calculate a bullet's BC from velocity at two locations along the flight path or time of flight, or estimate range of a target of known size based on its span on your MOA or Mil reticle. The Options Page gives choices for display in Metric units, Metric range, mRadian display instead of MOA output, Spin drift, and even correct for the rotation of the earth (Coriolis Correction).

The program, when run from the iPhone, can obtain atmospheric conditions at the closest weather station to your location and output a range card that will allow for atmospheric conditions different from those present at the time of load development/original input.

For example. You developed your load at 80 degrees, 5200 ft above sea level with atmospheric pressure of 29.92 and 56% humidity. You are now shooting a match or hunting in the winter. The temperature is 43 degrees, 30.43 inHG pressure, 82% humidity at 9700 ft above sea level. The program will output the correct drop and wind drift data to engage your intended target. The data can also be manually input from a portable weather station such as the Kestrel 4000 portable weather station for exact conditions.

This program costs $29.95 and is great!

A good laser rangefinder/binocular is a must. The Leica Geovid are the cream of the crop IMO. I know the cost may be prohibitive, but there is no substitute for being able to range your target as you are glassing without changing devices. They are spot on accurate out to 1200+ yards.

Scopes and reticle choices and how to use them, the topic of HC's thread, are another product that has improved. This part of the puzzle must function perfectly from elevation and windage adjustments to aimpoint spacings or all of your drop data and rangefinding is moot.

If you have a mil dot reticle or a ballistic reticle of any type in your scope, you probably think that it works without any doubt. As HC has pointed out, the spacing may not be actually as advertised and some judicious "tweaking" may be necessary to make the reticle funtion properly.

For ballistic reticles in the first focal plane, the spacing is supposed to be correct on any power setting. The reticle will actually change size as the power is adjusted. For second focal plane reticles, the correct power setting to make the reticle spacings correct must be found by shooting the developed load and even then, the load may not "fit" the reticle.

For reticles set up in MOA or mRad the same applies.

There is the issue of manufacture as well. I have seen scopes set up with MOA or mRad reticles with which the spacings are incorrect and meaningless. The MOA or mRad graduations are NOT. If your data says to hold over 1.75 mRad to hit the target and your mRad markings are not correct, it sure makes a hit difficult and your data worthless! The only way one can know this is to have access or make a sighting board or target that is precisely marked for the distance used in both MOA and mRad. The same goes with checking turret function. When 7.5 MOA is dialed in elevation, does the reticle ACTUALLY MOVE 7.5 MOA?

You'd be surprised how many top dollar scopes fail these tests.

When all of these tools are working correctly and combined with an accurate rifle and load, making hits on small targets at long distances become an easier task.

It sure is great to have all facets working properly and see it pay off with results!

Thanks R! That helps move people up a Generation(or two) from the old ways.

Once you have he math down mildots are great. I have se them for many years and wack a lot more game way out there because of them.

Some of the newer reticle pattrens work well too others are just to messy to work with. It is great to have choices pick the best one for you and buy it.

I own 3 or 4 now, some pretty expensive. I think they are great for varmints. If you set back and analyze the whole situation, my personal decision is that they really dont offer a lot for big game. Reasons for saying this are:

1) The first requirement is that you know the range. Once you know this, holdover is quick and easy. It is a LOT faster to simply hold over than it is to set knobs and adjust power. I presume that no one is putting a 16 power MilDot on a 30-30. With most modern high velocity cartridges, you can sight in 1.5-2" high at 100 and be no more than 3" low out to 300-325. Simply memorize the correct holdoverfor 350 and 400 and you are ther.

2) My pet peave is that I don't think people should ethically shoot over 400 (and that is stretching it) due to wind, time of flight vs potential game movement etc. Below that, there is really no need for MilDots. Go to any rifle range and half the people ther aren't capable of staying on paper at a hundred yards. These same people believe that with a MilDot they can hit an animal, when in fact they can't shoot into 10 MOA.

3) Finally, the MilDot system is designed for use at one power setting with current scopes. This is very limiting. As a matter of practice, I think most people should hunt with their scope set at it's lowest setting, since that is where most rapid shots will occur.

4) Related to some of the above is the fact that it takes too much re-adjustment to accomplish. A lot of chances are lost due to the hunter taking way too much time to get ready. One trait I have seen in almost all good game shots is the ability to see the game and just shoot it.

quote:

I think they are great for varmints. If you set back and analyze the whole situation, my personal decision is that they really dont offer a lot for big game. Reasons for saying this are:

1) The first requirement is that you know the range. Once you know this, holdover is quick and easy. It is a LOT faster to simply hold over than it is to set knobs and adjust power.

I agree.

When you have the time, nothing is more accurate than dialing drop data into the scope. Knowing the range is made more simple by having some kind of rangefinding Bino's

Holding over for faster shots in hunting situations can be accomplished with any number of ballistic reticles. I have a couple of Leupold's with the Varmint Hunter Reticle, The Long Range Duplex, and the Long Range Varmint Duplex. All work well for hold over IF you have done the due dilegence of shooting and nailing down the drop data for your load.

It is not as simple as looking at the owner's manual, noting that with a 200 yard sight in that the next aimpoint is 300, the next is 400, and the next is 500. If it is a second focal plane scope, you may be able to adjust the power setting to get it close, but more than likely it will not fit EXACTLY AS ADVERTISED.

quote:

With most modern high velocity cartridges, you can sight in 1.5-2" high at 100 and be no more than 3" low out to 300-325. Simply memorize the correct holdoverfor 350 and 400 and you are ther.

True.

In most hunting situations, nothing more than holding on the target is necessary.

In target shooting, varmint shooting, and long range hunting situations, lots of practice and work combined with good equipment will allow accurate hits on small distant targets.

quote:

My pet peave is that I don't think people should ethically shoot over 400 (and that is stretching it) due to wind, time of flight vs potential game movement etc. Below that, there is really no need for MilDots. Go to any rifle range and half the people ther aren't capable of staying on paper at a hundred yards. These same people believe that with a MilDot they can hit an animal, when in fact they can't shoot into 10 MOA.

Everyone has ethical limitations and limitations due to ability and knowing those before you hunt or shoot is paramount.

quote:

Finally, the MilDot system is designed for use at one power setting with current scopes. This is very limiting. As a matter of practice, I think most people should hunt with their scope set at it's lowest setting, since that is where most rapid shots will occur.

This is true only for scopes with the reticle in the second focal plane.

With a first focal plane mil reticle, the subtensions are always the same no matter the power setting....a mil is a mil at 6X and a mil is a mil at 24X

I like the TMR reticle on the Leupold Mark IV. It is accurate. If a guy was serious about being able to hit what he was aiming at, every one of his rifles be it a hunting rifle or a target rifle would be wearing one.

With second focal plane Ballistic Reticles, the power must be set properly for them to work. The drop data must be confirmed by shooting. The aimpoints may not perfectly "fit" the load.

For example, with a 200 yard sight in, the next aimpoint may actually be 330 yards instead of 300 etc....

It all depends on your load variables.

quote:

Related to some of the above is the fact that it takes too much re-adjustment to accomplish. A lot of chances are lost due to the hunter taking way too much time to get ready. One trait I have seen in almost all good game shots is the ability to see the game and just shoot it.

Like anything worthwhile, you only get out of it as much as you are willing to put into it.

Most game is "just seen and shot" because the range is limited to the point blank sight in of the rifle..simple.

You will be surprised how inaccurate holding over on extremely long (500 to 1000 yard) targets really is. If you haven't tried it, give it a shot!

Before the AF funded and installed LASTE system with CCIP (constant computed impact point)in the A-10, every thing we did with the GAU 8, 30 mm gun was based on mil sizing and mil offset.
Of course we did not have a scope, but we had the HUD. After a pilot understood the basics of that system, you got to be very good with that system.

Barstooler

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
...the MilDot system is designed for use at one power setting with current scopes. This is very limiting. ...

I agree that is the way all the Instruction Manuals are written that I've seen.

However, that "One Power only" limitation is not in my initial post to begin the thread long ago. The flexability of the Mil-Dot System is limitless for those that want to follow what I wrote.

If you desire a Drop Chart for each Power on the Scope, you can do it. But, you still need to "verify" the actual Drop Rate by shooting.

Here are some examples of different reticles available. I'm sure most have seen these from Leupold or own one.







A mil dot reticle. The reticle will work great on any power setting IF the reticle is in the front focal plane. If it is in the second focal plane, the power setting must be determined to make it work. Usually the highest power setting.






The TMR reticle from Leupold is more sophisticated. There are fine lines on the vertical and horizontal retical delineating 1/2 and full mils. It is more precise than the mil dot reticle. Near the posts are graduations in .2 mils. They are great for accurately determining the span of an object and ranging it (known size). With the FF plane scope and the power set to whatever you want, the lines still are 1/2 and full mils. If you have your drop data taped to the rifle and in mils, hold over is simple and accurate.

With the simple mil dot reticle, the dots are actually .2 mils in size which is huge. You also have to guess where 1/2 a mil is on the reticle.


Here is a Ballistic Reticle




The Varmint Hunter's Reticle from Leupold. Other manufacturers make similar reticles. They are usually in the SF plane. The aimpoints are in neat little 100 yard increments from the center crosshair. With the multiple rifles of different caliber that this scope could be used on, it is unlikely that whatever load being used will exactly "fit" the nice little 100 yard drop aimpoints, or the nice 10 mph and 20 mph wind drift aimpoints. Bullet BC's are different, different loads have different velocities. The reticle has "general aimpoints" that may or may not be exact.

This reticle takes more work than the other two. You have to experiment with different sight in ranges to see if the lower aimpoints come close to neat 100 yard drop points. The Leupold site has instructions on how to make your load approximately fit the aimpoints. You are to sight in at 200 or 300 yards depending on caliber velocity; 200 for standard calibers, 300 for flatter shooting calibers. After this is done, a long target board is taken to 500 or 600 yards (dependant on caliber, standard is 500 and 600 for higher velocities), a big dot is drawn at the very top of the board as an aimpoint. Make sure you have plenty of board underneath the big dot for bullet impacts, like 6 feet or more.

A group is fired with the original sight in while aiming at the dot with the crosshair. Realize with a 200 or 300 yard sight in the bullets at 500 or 600 yards will impact the target way low. Go to the board after you shoot the group and mark the center of it with spray paint or something you can see back at the firing line. Now you have two dots on the board; one at the top was your aimpoint and the one at the bottom is the center of the group.

Set up the rifle steadily on the bags or bipod with the crosshairs on your aimpoint. Now adjust the power setting while the crosshair is on the aimpoint until the marked center of the group comes in line with the corresponding aimpoint on the reticle.

For example, for a standard caliber with which you sighted in at 200 yards and shot the group at 500, the supposed 500 yard aimpoint should be aligned by adjusting the power with the mark you made for the group.

You'll have to shoot at all of the other ranges to see how close they match.

If I have a load that I know will not "fit" the reticle, I simply sight in for the range I want, check the drop data for my load in MOA and compare it to the MOA spacing given for the reticle. The subtension distances are given at high power setting. 1.81 MOA from the intersection to the first dot. 4.13 MOA from the intesection to the second dot. 7.02 MOA to the top of the picket.

It's my coyote rifle so I wanted to sight in at 200 yards. Checking the drop data, between 320 and 330 yards the bullet drops 1.81 MOA, at 440 yards it drops 4.13 MOA and at 570 yards it drops 7.0 MOA.

I simply take a piece of masking tape to my bell of the scope, draw a mock reticle with the corresponding yardages on the aimpoint. I have confirmed by shooting and made adjustments.

************
The best option IMO for quick shots (or any for that matter) is the FF TMR. No worries about power setting, just know the range, drop data in mil, quickly hold over if necessary and fire.

With the SF plane scope, power setting is key, knowing the range and possibly having to guess at an aimpoint (if target range is between the two aimpoints)....a lot more to go wrong.

Wow, those were some pretty long descriptions.

I just remember:

"A Mil is a Meter at a Klick"

and work from there.......................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Wow, those were some pretty long descriptions.

I just remember:

"A Mil is a Meter at a Klick"

and work from there.......................DJ

Sounds simple!

How do you go about shooting 6 targets of known range in a 3 minute time limit?

Say 220, 340, 410, 475, 550, and 625 with an 8 mph wind from 3 O'clock?

rcamuglia:

Buy the book The UltiMate Sniper by Major John Plaster's.

Great book, good reference and a great chapter on wind.

.

Instant uncomplicated point of aims

400 YARDS



430 YARDS



540 YARDS



Uncomplicated turret turning without calculators and with a zero stop so you can't get lost



When you have a big buck or bull walking through an opening and looking like he is not gonna stop, you get your I-phone out, I'll be aiming.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Wow, those were some pretty long descriptions.

I just remember:

"A Mil is a Meter at a Klick"

and work from there.......................DJ

Sounds simple!

How do you go about shooting 6 targets of known range in a 3 minute time limit?

Say 220, 340, 410, 475, 550, and 625 with an 8 mph wind from 3 O'clock?

I'd use the cheat sheet taped to my stock that I figured out ahead of time..............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
...How do you go about shooting 6 targets of known range in a 3 minute time limit? ...

I'd fire a shot about every 28-29sec with the proper Hold Over and lean into-the-wind with the Mil-Dots!

Jeez, this is making those other voices in my head argue. I won a Trijicon 5-20X TR23-2G at the Vietnam Veterans breakfast at SCI. Now I have to learn how to read that stuff.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by woods:


Instant uncomplicated point of aims


......That are inaccurate and if your guess while holding somewhere out in outer space for wind and elevation is lucky, you may hit "somewhere" on the animal

400 YARDS






430 YARDS






540 YARDS



Uncomplicated turret turning without calculators and with a zero stop so you can't get lost


Uncomplicated?? I guess you have to be clairvoyant to decipher what the heck those knobs are set to!!!




When you have a big buck or bull walking through an opening and looking like he is not gonna stop, you get your I-phone out, I'll be aiming.

The data will be taped to the stock so no iPhone necessary in a quick shot hunting situation.

Or it can be on this Super Whamo-Dyne Data Thingy on your scope








Now here is a target knob you can actually read and know what the heck it is saying!





So again we come to making an accurate shot at longer range than your sight in. If you don't dial, which is the most accurate way to hit exactly where you want and you'll most likely have time to do so on an unaware animal or on any target, you'll be holding over.

Which do you think will result in the best chance for a hit on the target?


This?...........







Or this.........







Even just dialing the elevation and holding accurately for windage with a scope set up in Mil (which is how most competitive SRM shooters function) is more accurate than "guessing" between the aimpoints on a Ballistic reticle, holding out in outerspace somewhere.


This is what dialing elevation and holding for wind looks like..........






So woods!

I can't wait for us to shoot together at Whittington so you can show me how much better holding over with the Ballistic Reticle is over dialing!!!

I'm willing to make a prediction and back it up with a wager.....BBQ or Lasagne??

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by rcamuglia:
...How do you go about shooting 6 targets of known range in a 3 minute time limit? ...
I'd fire a shot about every 28-29sec with the proper Hold Over and lean into-the-wind with the Mil-Dots!

A heck of a lot better than the Rapid Z!!!

I guess that's why woods should start shooting at the corners of black squares!!!

quote:

Originaly posted elsewhere by woods....:
But maybe that squaring up on the target is a good idea! Might help you when it comes to aiming at game



yeah, that's a good idea!

It'll definitely help you with that Rapid Z!!!




....but still inferior to dialing and leaning if you want to hit what you are aiming at!!!

Hey R and Woods, During the Prime Time(Twilight) Periods of the day, how are you able to see the "thin" Reticles? Do they Illuminate?

I haven't found it to be an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by woods:



430 YARDS






540 YARDS



Uncomplicated turret turning without calculators and with a zero stop so you can't get lost


Uncomplicated?? I guess you have to be clairvoyant to decipher what the heck those knobs are set to!!!

I fixed it for you so even a paisano can understand it!

And the zero stop looks like this (you don't need a mark since it will always stop at the same place by rotating the turret counterclockwise)




You can

• place the marks anywhere you want
• set the marks for any distance, i.e. 200, 300, 400, 500 & 600 or 200, 400, 600, 800 & 1000 yds
• It has a turret cap so you don't have to worry about it moving unless you move it

Easy to move by the plastic mover that comes with the scope or even the point of a ball point pen






Well, the pics won't update with the text and arrows showing how this works, maybe it will update later