Discussions are usually about the best bang for money or the most suitable for the job for a reasonable cost etc. But when money isn't a factor at all, who do you say makes the finest bolt action rifles in the world today?

The nicest I ever personally owned was made by Duane Wiebe.

Oh Boy ! This ought to be gooood !
'Best' w/o regard to price means different things to different people.
I am very fortunate in many ways. One being that I own many fine rifles and am admittedly anal a/b the way they shoot. I really do require tiny groups and see no reason to own rifles that do not deliver. 4 of these are complete customs(2 by smiths who post here) and 2 by 2 other famous US smiths and another being built. I also have quite a few semi customs and some mostly stock riles. Is one best or even better than the others ? I don't think so. But there are those that seem to feel the need to pay a whole lot (waAAAAAY TOOOO MUCH) money for a rifle by a maker (that they read a/b)by some DB like terry weewee so they can brag a/b it as a 'status symbol' to their so called 'friends'. You see the same horseshit in the performance dog world. 'Who's your dog out of ? My dog is out of +++ !" And ? Have you done anything with it----other than pay a pro and brag ?
Best---looking? Shooting ? Carrying? Most accurate?
Really ?

Hartmann & Weiss (Germany) or Purdey or Westley Richards..

that would likely be Jim Kobe or Duane Wiebe using an old model 70 as the basis...

A lot of "custom' Stuff being mentioned.
Production? Sako 1960's era L61R (Finnbear) actions or their medium (Forester) and short (Vixen) family.
No controlled feed or 3 position safety but just a rock solid precision made slick bolt action.
You can spend a whole lot more…BUT????

EZ

Joel Dorleac

http://www.dorleac-dorleac.com

Lon Paul--is a master
Joe Smithson stuff is pretty awesome
Ralf Martini makes a nice rifle.

Our Very own Aaron Little stuff looks pretty nice

Depends on what you want- tacktcool or Africool.lots of good builders out there

quote:

Originally posted by Brian564:
But when money isn't a factor at all, who do you say makes the finest bolt action rifles in the world today?

Echols & Co.

and thats based on having seen every maker at ACGG and SCI.
If one wants to spend less, Ralf Martini is a close finish at the post to Echols.
Those two shops build rifles for people who hunt and shoot their rifles more than they look at them.

Ive never heard of a rifle having to be sent back to Echols cause it would not feed or function.
can't say the same for several other supposedly esteemed US custom makers.

They like to brag about inletting, stock finish, integ. barrels, engraving, etc, etc, But will fail to
properly-extensively test the rifle for basic reliable function!.... customer finding out about the fault on Safari...

This probably comes due to those makers obsessed with the art side, forgetting its really a tool that could be
needed to preserve your life in some circumstances.

IF a round catches or bolt rides over the case lip when you seriously need another round pronto!....
all the show & shine and makers name proudly engraved on the barrel, wont comfort or help you.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Hartmann & Weiss (Germany) or Purdey or Westley Richards..

As good as H&W are, EcholsCo. does changes to a H&W magnum mauser action to make it even better.
Replace the Blackburn unit with a new and better geometry and metallurgy unit,
and replace the bolt stop/release with a new proper magnum mauser spec one.

Of course one must give due credit to H&W for actually recreating the magnum Mauser action...

They have also been proactive & innovative introducing improved design features on the premium
English design Double barrel firearms they build.

Hartmann-Weiss base their gun builds on a modified-improved design, i.e.; Beesley and Boss-Robertson.
small but significant changes in materials & design are made that improve wear resistance,function and
reliability of the weapon;

- Many of their self openers have springs built into the cocking rods and safety sears,
eliminating parts and screws.

- At the junction where their U/O ejectors cam on the action, hardened steel insert prevents wear,
they also modified the Boss single trigger turret to make it easier to disassemble,
where possible they use roller tips on mainsprings, eliminating the breakage prone tumbler link.

In effect H&W can build a Beesley design actioned gun with Boss triggers and H&H Southgate extractors.
...all in order to offer the best in style and mechanical design.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian564:
Discussions are usually about the best bang for money or the most suitable for the job for a reasonable cost etc. But when money isn't a factor at all, who do you say makes the finest bolt action rifles in the world today?

What's the definition of "finest"?

Joe Smithson.

Ralf Martini
Duane Weibe
Joel Dorleac

Those are my top three.

Griffin & Howes have been good for me.

All the above mentioned gunmakers are in their League of their own. To find the finest can only become a matter of tast. Tast=Style.

The general concensus is that the best bolt action rifle in the world are currently being made in the US by individual makers like D'Arcy Echols, David Miller, Joe Smithson, Monte Mandarino, Maurice Ottar, Gene Simillion, James Tucker, Steve Heilmann, Ralph Martini, Lon Paul and Jerry Fisher.

quote:

IF a round catches or bolt rides over the case lip when you seriously need another round pronto!....
all the show & shine and makers name proudly engraved on the barrel, wont comfort or help you.

This is the essence of a DG rifle - it must function flawlessly.
Once AHR has done some work to a CZ550, you ready to go for less money.
Most young PH's cannot afford top Dollar rifles and have to look at alternatives.


Santa Claus

quote:

Originally posted by Santa Claus:
- it must function flawlessly.

I recall Selby stating that his M98 never-ever failed him in 40yrs of PH duties.

Never read him bragging-emphasising about the fact it was a Rigby & Co or about
the grade of wood in the stock.

After some decades it had no bluing, no checkering and a worn-out barrel.
and a stock that was modified by himself not long after after he purchased it.

Clearly it was a work tool and not intended as a fancy artwork.

I remember him praising his .416 for its RELIABILITY, HANDLING and MAGAZINE CAPACITY.

> OF course flawless function should not only apply to DG rifles.

As nice as the work of the gun smiths is/are.

They are not making rifles they are putting parts together and they do a very good job of that.

They do a great job of customizing them.

Unless they are taking raw steel and making them from it.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
As nice as the work of the gun smiths is/are.

They are not making rifles they are putting parts together and they do a very good job of that.

They do a great job of customizing them.

Unless they are taking raw steel and making them from it.

That is an interesting thought, but by that definition it makes Savage a fine custom rifle maker.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The general concensus is that the best bolt action rifle in the world are currently being made in the US by individual makers like D'Arcy Echols, David Miller, Joe Smithson, Monte Mandarino, Maurice Ottar, Gene Simillion, James Tucker, Steve Heilmann, Ralph Martini, Lon Paul and Jerry Fisher.

This is a list that needs paying attention to.

While that is a good list, Maurice Ottmar has been deceased for some time.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
While that is a good list, Maurice Ottmar has been deceased for some time.

I think Phil knows that.

Phil might, but the original poster may not.

well it sure as he77 ain't blaser

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Phil might, but the original poster may not.

He will figure it out when no one answers the phone.

That's like asking who makes the best automobile. They will all get you where you are gong but they each have an individual ride and style. The one that is the fastest is not the one that will last the longest. The one that is the smoothest on the road is not the one that corners best. The one that carries the most passengers is not the one that is best off-road. And so it is with rifles.

The best rifle for any one person will most likely be one that he has had made to his specifications. That would rule out any off the shelf offerings. The man who prefers a rifle built on the Model 70 action could convince a European maker to build one but he is more likely to use one of the well respected USA gunsmiths or companies to build it. I believe the Europeans have the edge when it comes to making a rifle on a modern Mauser action. I like the Holland & Holland style and their fine reputation is well deserved. Others may prefer a different style or area of emphasis in construction. But asking who makes the finest rifles requires lumping all designs, purposes, and styles into one category and it makes no more sense to do that with rifles than it does to do that with automobiles.

Looked at a new model Mauser in a South Africa sporting goods that was a fine fine looking and feeling rifle

Had a Mauser in .416 Rigby, magnum Mauser action by Gottfried Prechtl...one of the 1oo year commemorative Mausers....that action was a dream....so was the feeding..

But alas....another hunter wanted it more that me..

The Mannlicher Schonauers of the 1950's and 60's were pretty smooth and dependable and accurate. Off the shelf of corse, not custom made.

Can't believe nobody mentioned Reto Buehler or Lee Helgeland. They do both metal and wood quite well.

Gunmaker
That is a very nice rifle!

Jack Haugh is my favorite, but great gun makers are nemourous in the USA..Europe has some awesome gun builders such as Harold Wolf and others. Pretty much a loaded question with many opines.

It is a dream of mine to handle all the best builders' work and write a book on the top 20. However, at 60 years of age, I don't think I'd live long enough to visit all of them to confirm their abilities in person. There are so many and of course professionally done photos can be deceiving. I will say that of the ones I've seen personally, most of my favorites were U.S./Canadian builders along with some French.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
As nice as the work of the gun smiths is/are.

They are not making rifles they are putting parts together and they do a very good job of that.

They do a great job of customizing them.

Unless they are taking raw steel and making them from it.

That is an interesting thought, but by that definition it makes Savage a fine custom rifle maker.

No it makes savage a rifle maker or manufacture

There are a lot of good customizers out there very few makers.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
As nice as the work of the gun smiths is/are.

They are not making rifles they are putting parts together and they do a very good job of that.

They do a great job of customizing them.

Unless they are taking raw steel and making them from it.

Very interesting indeed. Can anyone tell me who among the high end makers machine their own actions? I only know of Hartmann and Weiss and Prechtl

If making every part of the rifle, lock stock and barrel in-house is a requirement then there are very few makers in the world who can do that, and even fewer who actually do.
There are a number of European builders like Peter Nelson, Philipp Ollendorff, Peter Hofer, Johann Franzoj and Max Ern who might have the ability but I doub't they sell any rifles made like that, that actually get used for hunting.
Nor are they any better, or even as good functionally, as the ones put together in this country by the makers I listed.
And I did forget to place Reto on the list as he deserves it as well.

quote:

Peter Nelson

I am under the impression that he has retired and the company is no longer in operation.

Re: Peter Nelson, what an interesting & privileged career he had.
From Purdey(53'-71'), then to Hartmann & Weiss(71'-89'), to then having a shop-business of his own.

He usually took more dedicated hrs to build rifles than the Purdey # crunchers demanded.
In other words he work to an exceptional personal high standard and not to the company budget or calculated time constraint.

Like Otto Weiss & Peter Nelson who both were once part of Purdey and then assisted each other after Purdey,
there are also other people in the trade who don't really get much mention, yet were also importantly part
of what made the respected Bespoke label brand guns great.
eg:

quote:

Derek Mills

Past:

•Gunstocker and gunmaker at P V Nelson Gunmaker
•Apprentice and Gunmaker at Holland & Holland Gumakers

Derek Mills's Summary:

I have completed stocking, made parts, or complete guns for almost every "best" gun company in the UK. Just some of whom are Holland & Holland, P V Nelson, Boss & Co, James Purdey & Sons, Hartmann & Weiss, David McKay Brown, W W Greener, Atkin Grant & Lang, Westley Richards, Holloway & Naughton, E J Churchills.
While working for so many different companies I have also worked on almost every type of gun. From the smallest Side by Side Shotgun, to the largest Over and Under Rifle, my experience has grown to cover all and everything in between. Having trained as an apprentice in the conventional way of making my tools by hand, I was also at the very beginning of the introduction of CAD and CNC to the gun trade, giving me an excellent depth of knowledge of both the old and the new manufacturing techniques.

Specialties:

Ultra high quality Rifle design and manufacture in Side by Side and Over and Under configuration, up to .700 Nitro Express. Shotgun design and manufacture in S/S and O/U from .410 to 4 bore.

Derek Mills's Experience:

Gunstocker and gunmaker P V Nelson Gunmaker


September 1984 – January 2000 (15 years 5 months)

I left Holland & Holland Gunmakers to join Peter V Nelson on a self-employed basis. Peter Nelson was still involved with Hartmann & Weiss, Hamburg until 1989 so I was the sole stockmaker for both of them in the UK until that time. I remained the sole stockmaker for Peter Nelson until 2000, helping develop guns that are widely regarded as being amongst the best examples of their kind in the world, both then and now. While only making a small number of guns per year the attention to detail was unparalleled, something that has followed me into my current position.

Apprentice and Gunmaker Holland & Holland Gumakers


September 1977 – September 1984 (7 years 1 month)

Served 5 year apprenticeship and stayed on 2 further years but uniquely it was 3 in different sections of gunmaking. Following one year in the training school I trained in the finishing shop, then the machine shop and finally the stocking shop for the last 4 years.

Theres something about working under the one roof for a good number of yrs and learning from the wealth of fellow
employee skill-base about:
-building actions,-stocking,-barrel making,-regulating,etc... to then end up with the in-house made &completed rifle.

IF you see problem or need to discuss something in the build you can take the actual compontent/rifle and go see the
in-house actioner,barrel maker or regulator etc, with a hot cup of tea in your hand.
And when it comes time for you to learn their particular skills,(or them yours), it all takes place at your normal workplace.

You just DONT get that kind of interaction or comprehensive exposure,experience/skill sharing by ordering your barrels from
Pacnor or Krieger, rings & bases from Talley and sights from Recknagel....

Look at this killer beauty. Pretchl's own 07 action, 338 Lapua Magnum, in a carbon fiber Mansory stock.

https://www.facebook.com/media...9375318136211&type=1

Ive seen that before.

Mansory also offers rather exorbitantly priced (modified) supercars including; AMGs,Lambos,Ferrari,McClarens,RollsRoyce, etc

A big target market area for them are the oil rich M.E. arab states.

A Rolex yachtmaster(general retail $12K?) but one from 'Bamfords' had Popeye caricature as the face and hands.
but I will pass at US$32,000.