What is the definition/criteria for categorizing a "fine rifle".

quote:

Originally posted by wetibbe:
What is the definition/criteria for categorizing a "fine rifle".

The devil is in the details. The last 10%

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Can't believe nobody mentioned Reto Buehler or Lee Helgeland. They do both metal and wood quite well.

Gunmaker

Can't believe nobody mentioned YOU.

Beautiful rifle !

_______________________________________________

Now back to my question:

What is the criteria? So far I have only seen a popularity contest with personal preferences and opinions.

I worked for two bosses in my career, both wealthy and both extreme gun collectors. One had 600 guns.

They can be categorized as current production models, custom individuals, with quality design and features, elaborate engraving, reputation, antiquity, and probably more.

I just can't wrap my head around the elements of judgment. For the moment there is NO answer that I can see. Too many divergent opinions and that makes it virtually impossible to select the king of rifles.

This is posted for the photos only to illustrate my point earlier. The devil is in the details and IMO the last 10% or maybe even 20% make all the difference. Its as much about what you don't see as well. The camera can many times be quite unkind to finished rifles. But can you see any flaws? You know it when you see it, and some makers execute it right time and time again.

http://echolsrifles.blogspot.c...01/given-choice.html

I don't know a lot of theses guys. I thought you built a rifle but you make an action? Just semantics

quote:

http://echolsrifles.blogspot.c...01/given-choice.html

I'm sure he's a fine gentleman, but these are his personal preferences and what he believes. I can see many disagreeing and opting for different features, and that doesn't make anyone's opinion wrong or flawed. Just personal beliefs

A completely reliable, reasonably accurate (for the task) rifle that fits YOU perfectly is my idea of the ne plus ultra rifle. My AV Sakos from the 1980s and their immediate predecessors fill that bill admirably. The new Sakos are unfortunate (I will leave it at that).

I can think of nothing that needs doing to a Sauer.

If the Blaser R-8 professional could be had with some cast-off and toe-out in the stock it would be a wonder as well.

The top custom rifle makers don't just ASSEMBLE parts, they harmonize them and modify as needed.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian564:

quote:

http://echolsrifles.blogspot.c...01/given-choice.html

I'm sure he's a fine gentleman, but these are his personal preferences and what he believes. I can see many disagreeing and opting for different features, and that doesn't make anyone's opinion wrong or flawed. Just personal beliefs

I stated clearly in my post that I posted it for the photos only. The text has nothing to do with this discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by wetibbe:
What is the definition/criteria for categorizing a "fine rifle".

The devil is in the details. The last 10%

Jerry Fisher has said the detail in the last .003" in a stock is what helps define a fine custom from ordinary.

Master Michelangelo apparently said, carving a horse out of marble was easy,
"..one just has to remove all the material that does not make the horse."

quote:

Originally posted by wetibbe:

Now back to my question:

What is the criteria? So far I have only seen a popularity contest with personal preferences and opinions.

you talking demands of an actual 'working-hunting rifle' ...or just 'special event(pampered) safe queens'...?

is one only interested in old period gun craft tradition?....or is one also open to practical intelligent innovation?

If one wanted the finest metal fit and finish, traditional rust-blue won't take to it very well.
Hence the Echols developed high durability hot bluing process would be more sensible option.

modern plasma-Ion nitriding also has its place.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian564:
Discussions are usually about the best bang for money or the most suitable for the job for a reasonable cost etc. But when money isn't a factor at all, who do you say makes the finest bolt action rifles in the world today?

The best bolt action?

There are a few guys in America that specialize in big bore bolt guns Ryan Breeding and Joseph Smithson are two of the ones that a lot of people go to for that type of thing.

Echols and Martini build guns that people swoon over, but the best. The finest?

I think it would have to be someone in Europe. Probably someone in Ferlach, probably Peter Hofer or someone down the street.

In the old days "best" meant engraved to the nines fitted to the individual and as high end as could be. A showpiece that could be counted on to work 100% of the time.

So I am going with that definition of Best.



Engraved to the end of the world, engraving alone would place this rifle made in Europe. I have seen very few American engravers that are true masters. I have been friends with a lady engraver in Germany that is out of this world, and she considers herself ho-hum. Charges a pittance. The people that she considers to be masters would also be in Europe, probably at Beretta.

Porn grade wood

100% reliability

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

Echols and Martini build guns that people swoon over, but the best. The finest?

More than anything those customers tend to hunt with them and purchase them primarily for that reason.

I don't perceive that embellishments like engraving or ultra fancy wood necessarily make a finer rifle,
but they are certainly more luxurious with such options.( way too fancy-busy wood can be a negative)

A fine rifle to me incorporates correct fit & balance,100% proper function, and built to high std. of -
dimensional accuracy,finish & materials. ....yet the end result could be rather understated.

quote:

Originally posted by wetibbe:
What is the definition/criteria for categorizing a "fine rifle".

I guess it comes down to the job the peculiar firearm is suppose to preform.

The best for hunting in the worse weather and conditions. But may not be the best for showing off the fine craftsmanship of a maker/ smith/manufacturer.

Some can afford taking a beautiful expensive blued wood stock rifle out in the really world.

Beating the crap out it reducing the value by thousands of dollars.

More power to them.

I can't thus my preference for stainless syt stock fire arms.

Animals shot with my guns are just as dead as those shot with the most expensive ones.

The best tool for the job defines the best for me.

For an alternative perspective, Jim Borden's actions are exceptional and my 6.5x47 built by Callum Ferguson using one is a masterpiece of its type...

D'Arcy Echols works wonders with a Winchester M70

Mayfair Engineering make an awesome Mauser action, as do FZH.

Hartmann & Weiss make beautiful rifles, as do Westley Richards, Joel Dorleac and some of the other Euoropean and U.S. makers already mentioned by Phil and others on this thread.

The amazing thing is the breadth of rifle making talent on offer in the 21st century...

This thread has been informative and educational by a really nice, sincere bunch of very knowledgeable aficionados.

I don't want to disappreciate any but I am still floundering as to the definition of fine" and ultimately the winner of the world title which is still undefined and elusive.
________________________________________


fine1


/fīn/


adjective

superlative adjective: finest



1.


of high quality.
"this was a fine piece of filmmaking"


synonyms: excellent, first-class, first-rate, great, exceptional, outstanding, quality, superior, splendid, magnificent, exquisite, choice, select, prime, supreme, superb, wonderful, superlative, of high quality, second to none; More
informalA1, top-notch, blue-ribbon, blue-chip, splendiferous


"fine wines"



antonyms: poor



•(of a person) worthy of or eliciting admiration.
"what a fine human being he is"


synonyms: worthy, admirable, praiseworthy, laudable, estimable, upright, upstanding, respectable
"a fine citizen"



•good; satisfactory.
"relations in the group were fine"


synonyms: all right, acceptable, suitable, good (enough), passable, satisfactory, adequate, reasonable, tolerable; informalOK
"the initiative is fine, but it's not enough on its own"



antonyms: unsatisfactory



•used to express one's agreement with or acquiescence to something.
"anything you want is fine by me, Linda"



•in good health and feeling well.
"“I'm fine, just fine. And you?”"


synonyms: in good health, well, healthy, all right, (fighting) fit, as fit as a fiddle, blooming, thriving, in good shape, in good condition, in fine fettle; More
informalOK, in the pink


"I feel fine"



antonyms: ill



•(of the weather) bright and clear.
"it was another fine winter day"


synonyms: fair, dry, bright, clear, sunny, without a cloud in the sky, warm, balmy, summery
"a fine day"



antonyms: inclement



•of imposing and dignified appearance or size.
"a very fine Elizabethan mansion"


synonyms: impressive, imposing, striking, splendid, grand, majestic, magnificent, stately
"a fine old house"



•(of speech or writing) sounding impressive and grand but ultimately insincere.
"fine words seemed to produce few practical benefits"



•denoting or displaying a state of good, though not excellent, preservation in stamps, books, coins, etc.



•(of gold or silver) containing a specified high proportion of pure metal.
"the coin is struck in .986 fine gold"



2.


(of a thread, filament, or person's hair) thin.
"I have always had fine and dry hair"


synonyms: thin, light, delicate, wispy, flyaway More

"fine hair"


•sheer, light, lightweight, thin, flimsy;
diaphanous, filmy, gossamer, silky, transparent, translucent, see-through


"fine material"



antonyms: thick, coarse



•(of a point) sharp.
"I sharpened the leads to a fine point"


synonyms: sharp, keen, acute, sharpened, razor-sharp
"a fine point"



antonyms: thick, blunt



•consisting of small particles.
"the soils were all fine silt"


synonyms: fine-grained, powdery, powdered, dusty, ground, crushed; technicalcomminuted
"fine sand"



antonyms: coarse



•having or requiring an intricate delicacy of touch.
"exquisitely fine work"


synonyms: delicate, fragile, dainty More

"fine china"


•intricate, delicate, detailed, elaborate, dainty, meticulous

"fine detailed work"



antonyms: coarse



•(of something abstract) subtle and therefore perceived only with difficulty and care.
"the fine distinctions between the new and old definitions of refugee"


synonyms: subtle, ultra-fine, nice, hair-splitting, nitpicking
"a fine distinction"



•(of feelings) refined; elevated.
"you might appeal to their finer feelings"



Origin



Middle English: from Old French fin, based on Latin finire ‘to finish’ (see finish).



Translate finest to;

___________________________________________

It seems to me that refining the conclusion we need to eliminate the commoners and qualify the Royalty. Thus the common, current production models are OUT.

Apparently also are out the older models of custom excellence firearms as obsolete too old technology.

Thus we are left with Modern/current technology, design and attributes that leave the old behind.

Walnut. It is known that the old historic, woods were natural and superior. The modern are different and not the same quality.

Metallurgy. It is springing forward by breath taking leaps and bounds.

Design. Whatever opinion, that leaves it to the imagination and opinion of the individual.

Engraving. It obviously enhances the value and certainly contributes to the value.

_____________________________________________

So how do we resolve it. Do we need a poll, a vote ?

Shouldn't all candidates be listed in the poll to be fair.

When I think of fine or the finest, I think of refinement.
some of it visual, some not.

i.e; 'the Purdey was finely weighted & balanced' (Purdey being famous for achieving such charcteristic)

In regards to fine bone china, its formulation has been refined that it allows the walls to be thin
yet remain rather damage resistant, compared to more ordinary less developed forms of porcelain.
also the kiln firing temperature will determine certain characteristics of china.
.......and You still need someone who can design & shape a nicely weighted & balanced cup or teapot...

Plenty of gunmakers are making fine rifles; usually it's the customers screwing up a project.

James Anderson gets my vote.

One thing in common, almost all these mentioned begin with a 98 Mauser or a derivative thereof.

The word finest is another one of those words like "best" or "beautiful' or "love" that we would like to think are objective but are really subjective, meaning subject to the person who is describing it.
So it may be impossible to come to an agreement on a board such as this one as to what the finest really is.

I would suggest that for each individual the finest rifle would be one where there is nothing left to do. It is complete in every dimension that the owner wishes it to be. But the question was who makes them.

Well, many people. The miner's mine the iron and the smelters make the steel and the machinists machine the steel, and the woodsman cut the trees and the sawyer saws the wood, and then a person or persons put these parts together and add their special skills and touches to conform the ensamble to the owner's desire.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
The word finest is another one of those words like "best" or "beautiful' or "love" that we would like to think are objective
but are really subjective, meaning subject to the person who is describing it.

Whether one thinks something manufactured is beautiful or not, is indeed subjective to personal taste,

But as far as workmanship standards go they certainly can be judged/rated objectively.

Plenty of things in this world are industry rated according to their surface finish,tolerance,proportions,accuracy,etc
which have nothing to do with personal feelings,likes/dislikes or personal preferences.

A diamond may be cut into a shape one thinks is not atttactive(subjective),
but its rated; clarity,cut,color,polish,flourecence,symmetry,proportions, etc,, are strictly measured & charted,...objectively.
High grade diamonds cut in Antwerp are of better standard than diamonds cut on much larger production scale in India.
but to many women it don't matter, cause they tend to more often choose or judge on emotion(subjectiveness).

I can buy the same certified loose diamond that prestigious Tiffany & Co. would purchase from Antwerp to put in their jewellery.
The stone itself is worth no more or less on the world diamond price market according to its weight & grading.

Regulating HQ mechanical watches....
They are extensively tested and measured in time keeping performance and industry rated accordingly.
Typical example of this is Rolex and its 'COSC' rating( certified cronometer)
However, certain firms are know for achieving even greater time accuracy in their mech.watches and also
doing more extensive regulation of their calibres.....The technical achievement of such efforts is not subjective,
but how much one values or appreciates such can be.

i.e.; some might just aesthetically like or 'love' the shape of the gold case with pearl dial,
and not really give a frigg about its extraordinary time keeping accuracy.

The makers who spends the most amount of time on the rifle, usually makes the FINEST. Well, its subjetive. I prefer one look over another.

But, I find it funny, that a rifle which is used to hunt.. is a killing weapon. It should be the most fool proof, feed-eject proof, rust proof, dont-blow-up-in-your-face proof, dont-crack-in-the-wrist proof, back-up-sight proof, least-amounts-of-parts proof.


But alot of hunters use 2-3 x the amount needed, because they want a inferior product that looks prettier ( I am thinking wood stock and engravings )..

So good wood and engraving make for an inferior product? Hardly

Trax

My post wasn't meant to suggest that there are not objective criteria for determining the "finest" rifle. There certainly are objective standards for measuring those things that lend themselves to measurement. What I was trying to suggest was that after a consideration of all things objective there still is the issue of subjectivity to get to the "finest" rifle.

You mentioned Rolex watches. Years and years ago (when I had money) I owned a couple of them. One was, I recall, a "datejust" and the other a 'submariner". I think they were both OCC watches. At least I couldn't tell if one or the other kept better time. But for me, the Submariner was the "finest" watch of the two for very subjective reasons. There was nothing else I wanted it to be than what it was, except maybe less costly.

It is easy to see this is a big game hunting rifle forum. . No mention of Defiance, Stolle Stiller, Surgeon actions ect. Nor of barrel makers. I would think that " the finest " would not only look beautiful and be a greatest pleasure to hold. And be 100% reliable in all ways.
But would also be the most accurate.
Defiance recently came out with a crf action with an integral canted rail . I would nominate it as having the potential for being The Finest as to limit the potential fineness to a few hundred yards would be far less of a standard than what is obtainable. Kinda like the front half of a bespoke Seville Row suit. Looks good up front but not so much going away.

For myself, the finest rifle would be one with some appropriate modern engraving. . An extra wear and corrosion resistant barrel. Of course a crf action. A stock that would fit and handle very well for offhand up close hunting shooting, And, with the turn of a couple thumb wheels fit just as well laying prone for a 1200 yard shot. It would obviously have an integral 30 moa rail ( for the cartridges I would shoot in it). And since fineness can't be religated to just 1or3or6 shots. It would have a DBM system that was functional with mittens on but also attractive. And would come with flush fitting as well as high capacity magazines. And it would also have to have a muffler/can/moderator on it that could be removed and replaced with a brake.
And it would all weigh somewhere between 9+13 lbs.
Since a rifle alone without a sighting system is kinda useless it would need a scope to match its capabilities of less than .2 moa to 1 mile distant.

Now to me, THAT WOULD BE THE FINEST BOLT ACTION RIFLE MADE.
And I know it would be because I have never heard of it yet.

Lindy2,

Some people just want a H&H made bolt-rifle or Rolex 'Suby' no matter what!.
they are good safe bets but come at quite a premium.

although Rolex don't have the best industry std. of 'regulation', theres no other watch case & crown
system: '5 seal-Triplock' , that I would seriously trust for regular water dunking & diving..
...and the 3135 cal. inside, remains a trusted robust workhorse.

Rifles are like breast , big or little round or flat , the best ones are always the ones your holding . just a thought

I just read the title and the first name that came to my head:

David Miller. That's my vote.

VO vapen

http://www.vovapen.com/Our-Rifles

They dont market them in europe or US only Dubai.

About 10 years ago I requested a catalog and they sent me one. I wish I still had it. It was the most austentacious catalog you have ever seen. Design isn't for me but then again neither are a lot of things.

On active duty it was common for the squadron to commission a watch from Breitling or Bremont with the logo on it. They were typically given at a 30-50% discount over what is normally available. I never bought one as I don't really have a need for things that fancy.

I recently sold the nicest knife I have ever touched. It was made by Roger Bergh, and is a true piece of beauty.

My theory being that I am never going to use it on an animal, so why keep it.

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
VO vapen

http://www.vovapen.com/Our-Rifles

They dont market them in europe or US only Dubai.

June 2015 issue of The Field p105 has an article on a H&W 6.5X55 stalking rifle that brought 20000GBP at Holts.Doesnt get much better than this to my eye.

ite sounds like we might need to narrow things down abit as the finest bolt action bench rest rifle might be judged a little differently than the finest rifle for dangerous game, or the finest sniping rifle, or the one with the most colorful eye candy.

Abe Chaber of the guns I have personally handled.

Well,
This is my latest. Some of you have seen it on the back cover of Gunmaker magazine. The Winter 2014 issue. It is a 1917 Enfield. It shoots great and feeds very well!
James Anderson did the most work on it. I have shot turtles and squirrels with it.

SATTERLEE ARMS actions /rifles are second to none...have got three my self, and can t see how they could be improved

Spectacular rifle. How about some additional photos and details?

JDG

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Can't believe nobody mentioned Reto Buehler or Lee Helgeland. They do both metal and wood quite well.

20 years ago a VO vapen costed about 2500$ and were intended for the Swedish and european market just a bit nicer than a factory made rifle.
They use a sabbati 1900 action( the same model as for Huqvarna 1900) and a sabbati rifle is available for about 1000$ and kills game the same way as a 100000$ rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian564:

I think it would have to be someone in Europe. Probably someone in Ferlach, probably Peter Hofer or someone down the street.

In the old days "best" meant engraved to the nines fitted to the individual and as high end as could be. A showpiece that could be counted on to work 100% of the time.

So I am going with that definition of Best.



Porn grade wood

100% reliability

I would say this guy here:
http://www.ritterbusch-rifles.com/index.php?id=210000


Or out the box the new Heym Express designed by Ralf Martini...

All of these guys mentioned here are really good. I think it depends on two items:

1. Who builds a style you like? Don't ask someone to do a style that's not their sweet spot.

2. Someone you get along well with personally. I'll take the guy I can relate to on a personal level over someone that is #1, but don't relate to.

And fully assume schedule and budget are not issues.