Well, the timeline was supposed to be March 31 for the plant which produces Model 70, Model 94 and Model 1300s to shut down, did it really happen? Also, this pink shit seems to be scaring a lot of the folks off this site, or it that just my imagination?

They actually shut it down on the 29th because of a lack of work and sent everyone home. Winchester paid them through the 31st though.

It is such a shame. I hope that people will go past the initial finger-pointing to find out exactly why the plant shut down. I know that not enough of the product was being sold to justify keeping the place open, but what prompted the shooting public to back off. Perhaps other arms manufacturers can read between the lines. It just seems like a whole lot of eggs were being put into the WSM basket. Again, it is a shame. Tom Purdom

Tom:

That plant has never made money. If it did, it would have been kept open.

All winchesters eggs had to be put in one basket over the wsm's. It was a last ditch effort to breath life into the M70 and winchester itself.

The M94 and lever actions period have been on a declining market since after WW II.Cowboy action shooting has breathed some life in but not enough. On top of that I've seen more marlins in the field then M94's

If you read these forums long enough,you start to believe everybody shoots M70's. The fact of the matter is the majority of the hunting public uses remington rifles and shotguns and they could careless about their supposed design flaws and short comings.

I doubt remington is doing that great financially either.They do sell alot of ammo and various products though.

More people are getting away from hunting and shooting sports,for various reasons.

I may be a bit wierd but I shoot all remmy rifles and all Winchester shotguns, Winchester will not go away trust me I tried to buy the rights but was shot down. Best guess is that Sako will be building these rifles soon.

Why would SAKO even consider manufacturing a Winchester when their present day rifles are arguably the best thing going. That being said, SAKO quality will probably fall off now Beretta bought in.
As for me, I am partial to the 20 year old SAKOs.
Regards,
GeoW

The crf M70 was exspensive to build from the start. It didn't sell all that well either. Which is why it was drooped in 1964. Things haven't changed any.

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:
The crf M70 was exspensive to build from the start. It didn't sell all that well either. Which is why it was drooped in 1964. Things haven't changed any.

That's why I always wonder why the armchair critics here make such a fuss about CRF. If it was that good, everybody would be buying it. How the cartridge gets from the magazine to the chamber is mostly mental masturbation anyway. Thirty-five years with push feed has yet to make me feel disadvantaged.

From what I can gather CRF is not worth two Bob for most shooting, but is much preferred by the DG African shooters, and there are not too many of them around , and a lot wouldn't use a M70 anyway.
One thing I've noticed is a lot of people in U.S. WANT cheap, want and brag about getting something off retail price.

Down goes service and quality. Then comes all the complaints of which I've seen plenty on M70, Rem 700 s , Rugers, etc. and then people will start looking at buying foreign made guns.
I think other countrys shooters tend to buy less firearms, so can afford to pay more on their fewer guns.?

Back in the 80's when I worked for a the American arm of a company based in a little town about 60 klicks north of Helsinki...where the ammo plant was still under the mountain behind a steel blast door in 1984 the last time I was there... I kept hearing two statements that have stuck with me over the years:
"you Americans have a Kleenex mentality...you want to buy something cheap ... use it once then throw it away".
"A poor man MUST buy things of first quality so that they can last for generations and create an estate to be handed down to his son's and make life easier for them...only a rich man can afford to buy something over and over and throw it away after using something only once or a few times"...

I wish that I had paid more attention to those words of wisdom...and acquired more high quality and PAID for things and paid less attention to the fashion of the day and my whim for the latest greatest whizzbang,and paying the ever increasing Vig on my credit cards and mortgages all of my life...but then I would need a medium sized bank vault to hold all the blue steel and wooden goodies that have passed thru my hands in the last 40 years...oh well ...I must resemble that ugly American remark more than I thought. Ouch!
Ron

OBTW
I now own one winchester M70, a tikka, and two CZ's in four CF game calibers, as I can no longer afford to buy the guns from my old employer... shame on me...but I will start over with probably Kimbers in an American made product as finances allow as they appear to be the best product I can buy in a "Medium Priced" American Made rifle ...then maybe Dakota or ???'s and as many old SAKO's as I can find. I can only hope my kids will appreciate my taste and their good fortune..if they don't then scew 'em I'll have had my fun anyway!LOL!
RV

I think that there are fewer hunters today and fewer hunting opportunities because of the spread of leasing then there were 20/30/40 years ago.

Less land to hunt on = Fewer hunters = Less demand for firearms = Smaller Market = Industty Down-sizing and consolidation.

The mid-range market will probably feel the squeeze before either the high or low ends. Winchester/USRA was mostly in the middle market segment, as are Remington and Ruger.

Jeff

Yes and no. More land is leased than ever but hunting now competes with snowmobiles, video games and skateboards. There is public hunting land every where and in the country, local lads have uncles, grandparents or neighbors that would let them hunt. They'd rather listen to rap or watch VH1. Things change, unfortunately.

If they really wanted to hunt there are places.

This is a post from a gentleman on another board...An enjuneer, he used to be a VP of Manufacturing for a pretty major furniture/casework company, and now does consulting for the wood products/cabinetry industry. His specialty is advanced technologies to keep large companies competitive in this worldwide economy.

He's also an avid hunter and gun collector..

quote:

Sad but inevitable

About 12 years ago these guys put on a real courtship for me--made me feel good--and because of my love of guns it got more interest from me than it might have from someone else.

I went, I saw--I was aghast--they were still using machines that were central shaft powered

I told myself--and then them--that was further back than I wanted to go. There was no doubt in my mind that they weren't ready for me

I agree that there are fewer kids hunting, fishing, trapping, etc. When I was attending to my Mother's and Grandmother's estates in NH during the spring of 2004, I went trout fishing for a couple of hour almost every day and very seldom saw any kids fishing, even on the weekends. I took the son of a friend fishing, but he never wanted to walk more that 1/4 mile from where we'd park the Jeep. 2 of the kids that I ran into while I was fishing were smoking dope, not fishing. I guess that since nobody was fishing, it was a quiet place for them to go and get high.

Jeff

We can blame it on video games, or whatever, but go look in the mirror. If you wnat to find a way, you'll find a way.

FAREWELL TO WINCHESTER
By Michelle Malkin · April 03, 2006 09:31 AM

End of an era

Sad:

The famous Winchester rifle glorified in American Westerns may have fired its last shot as a plant where it had been manufactured since 1866 closed its doors last week. One hundred eighty-six employees of the US Repeating Arms Company plant located in New Haven, Connecticut, were thanked for their work Friday, two days after the facility stopped all manufacturing activity, said Catherine Sullivan-DeCarlo, a spokeswoman for the city government.
She told AFP that the mayor's office has been searching for an investor, who would take over the plant, but has to overcome several obstacles on the way to achieving this goal.

US Repeating Arms Company and its New Haven plant belong to Belgian manufacturer Herstal, which has purchased from US firm Olin the right to use the famous brand name.

"Herstal owns US Repeating Arms and Olin owns the license to the Winchester name so they own the brand name," Sullivan-DeCarlo said. "We've been talking to different gun manufacturers, and at the same time the mayor has been talking to Olin about possibly keeping the name Winchester here for whoever comes in the factory," she continued. "Because otherwise, our fear is that the Winchester name will end up overseas."

That would be a rough turn for the celebrated lever-action 1873 gun that made rapid reloading and fire possible and helped conquer the West.

Local coverage of the factory shutdown here and here.

The Times of London pays tribute:

Emanuel Gomez remembers the day that the company bought tickets for all its workers to watch the John Wayne film Stagecoach.
It was a source of pride for everyone at the factory that made the movie star’s signature Winchester rifle. “You have all these action scenes and you see him shooting his Winchester - killing Indians, of course,†Mr Gomez, who spent 44 years at the plant, recalled.

But the iconic American firearm known as “The Gun that Won the Westâ€, featured in so many Hollywood Westerns, is now riding off into the sunset for good.

Workers at the factory that produced the quintessential cowboy rifle for 140 years were laid off this week amid howls of protest from gun-lovers around the world, and the plant closed yesterday. “John Wayne and so many actors carried a Winchester: They didn’t say: ‘Hand me my rifle’. They said: ‘Hand me my Winchester’,†David Bichrest, the secretary of the Texas-based Winchester Arms Collectors Association, said.

“We have got 2,000 active members in this organisation. It runs from Australia to England to Belgium to France to Norway,†he said. “The whole fraternity is upset. There is a website called ‘Save Winchester’.â€

...Local officials say that three companies - including Smith & Wesson - have shown interest in buying the factory if they can get hold of the name.

“The name is very important. That is why there is going to be a battle,†Denny Johnson, another Winchester worker, said. “If it does not say ‘Winchester, New Haven, Connecticut’, it's not a real Winchester.â€

I had heard that one of the main reasons that Winchester closed was that they infringed on a patent owned by Rick Jameson, and due to the settlement had to close up. I had heard this back in March and the info on this is starting to come out now. I also heard we won't be seeing too many more articles by Jameson. I'm curious as to why it has taken the gun magazines so long to come out with any info on this other than the original press release by Winchester? Anyways we'll see as things develop.

quote:

Originally posted by Alfredo Morrell:
I had heard that one of the main reasons that Winchester closed was that they infringed on a patent owned by Rick Jameson, and due to the settlement had to close up. I had heard this back in March and the info on this is starting to come out now. I also heard we won't be seeing too many more articles by Jameson. I'm curious as to why it has taken the gun magazines so long to come out with any info on this other than the original press release by Winchester? Anyways we'll see as things develop.

Jamison's contract with Shooting Times was not renewed.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Jamison's contract with Shooting Times was not renewed.

Nothing like giving up a career for a single payday.

quote:

Nothing like giving up a career for a single payday

Depends on the payday.

I dont see that the problem is the kids around here. Its thier parents. Im 17, and i do play video games, i do listen to Heavey metal music. I do get stupid every now and then. Who doesnt? But i also help my uncle plant food plots, put up tree stands, scout, ect. I also get down to some hank williams jr. And when season hits im as serious as a heart attack. Just because us youth do things that doesnt invole the outdoors doesnt mean we dont want to. I have more friends that would love to go on a hunting trip with me but cant because thier liberal parents think its "not such a good idea". My niece and nephew love to go outside and play in the woods, but are not allowed because of the possibility of stupidity. My nephew got a .410 shotgun for christmas but has shot it less than 10 times because my lazy-ass brother in-law wont get up off his rear to go supervise him. So where as some kids would rather smoke a joint or three. Doesnt mean that we all would. Ok im off my soap box now.

I'm with Critter_Killer on that one. We all had things we did other things than be in the outdoors, at least if you lived anywhere in the city. I don't blame it on the kids, it is the parents that will not take the time to spend with the kids. Both of my daughters shoot and one, my 16 year old, is my hunting companion. The other doesn't hunt, but can put a 9mm round through a fleas ass at 25 yards because I take her whenever she wants to go. Neither of them smokes dope or is in trouble. I think it is a direct result of parental time spent. My 18 year old comes by my office every other day and we have lunch together. Parents have to make the time, every time, or the kids will certainly find something else to do.

quote:

Originally posted by MontMike:
I may be a bit wierd but I shoot all remmy rifles and all Winchester shotguns, Winchester will not go away trust me I tried to buy the rights but was shot down. Best guess is that Sako will be building these rifles soon.

I am the opposite - I shoot model 70's and Wingmaster 870's. Never have liked model 700's.

quote:

Originally posted by gsears:
Why would SAKO even consider manufacturing a Winchester when their present day rifles are arguably the best thing going. That being said, SAKO quality will probably fall off now Beretta bought in.
As for me, I am partial to the 20 year old SAKOs.
Regards,
GeoW

I have a 1968 Finnbear in .243 for sale in the Classifieds if you love them a lot!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by gsears:
That being said, SAKO quality will probably fall off now Beretta bought in.

Why on earth would you make a statement like that? Beretta has been making firearms longer than anyone else in the business. I to prefer the older Sako's but I don't think that Beretta involvment in Sako will lower quality in the least. Jim

I missed the Jamison/patent/deal. What is that all about?

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
I missed the Jamison/patent/deal. What is that all about?

Jamison holds the patent on the WSSM design (somthing about the length/diameter ratio), and was awarded royalities for there unathurized useage of that design. Let's just say that the amount of the settlement wasn't the real reason behind the plant closeure.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
I missed the Jamison/patent/deal. What is that all about?

Jamison holds the patent on the WSSM design (somthing about the length/diameter ratio), and was awarded royalities for there unathurized useage of that design. Let's just say that the amount of the settlement wasn't the real reason behind the plant closeure.

I agree, the Jamison law suit settled out of court because the plant was going to close, not the other way around. They could have easily fought and won the case against Jamison, but there was nothing long term worth fighting for. This is why you probably won't see Jamison suing any other gun makers. He may send them a letter demanding royalties, but it will never reach court. He and his lawyers took advantage of a company on the outs and kicked when they were down.

quote:

Originally posted by Cockbird Blaster:

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
I missed the Jamison/patent/deal. What is that all about?

Jamison holds the patent on the WSSM design (somthing about the length/diameter ratio), and was awarded royalities for there unathurized useage of that design. Let's just say that the amount of the settlement wasn't the real reason behind the plant closeure.

I agree, the Jamison law suit settled out of court because the plant was going to close, not the other way around. They could have easily fought and won the case against Jamison, but there was nothing long term worth fighting for. This is why you probably won't see Jamison suing any other gun makers. He may send them a letter demanding royalties, but it will never reach court. He and his lawyers took advantage of a company on the outs and kicked when they were down.

Dirty rotten no-good bastard. Kickin something so pure when its down is just shamefull. except crats

For me two factors predominate: CRF and stock fit followed by things like recoil pads and jeweled bolts. I just bought a 375 H&H Ruger for 1050 when I could have gotten the Winchester I was saving for for 800 or thereabouts. With the Winchester I would have had better fit and finish and a trigger I didn't have to immediate change out for a Timney. Plus teh M-70 hadled better and had a livelier feel than the nose heavy Ruger I've had to settle for. Why anyone would pay 1900 retail for this Ruger POS is beyond me. Lets hope Kimber or Sako or someone gets into the Model 70 soon.

quote:

Jamison holds the patent on the WSSM design!>> snip

snip >>They could have easily fought and won the case against Jamison, but there was nothing long term worth fighting for.

You are right about there not being anything worth fighting for! The WSSM is a flash-in-the-pan abortions that was not needed for anything, and only follows Remingtons silly habit of throwing idiotic cartridges on the market that nobody wants, or needs, instead of improving thier rifles, and chambering them for real cartridges with a purpose!

I only own two Winchester rifles, today, and they are simply usefull little things, but nothing to crow about. One is a 94 Trapper 30-30, and the other is an under 10,000 seriel numbered 94-22 22 mag still in the box, and was the first one sold in the city of El Paso,Texas, back in the 60s, or early 70s whenever they came out . I own one remington 700 7mm mag, that belonged to my father, before he died, and that is the only reason it is in my vault at all.
All my bolt rifles are CRF, and most are Mausers, Mannlicher Shoenauer, and/or Whitworth. The rest are a veriety of double rifles, singleshots, and combination guns.

Outside of an American company going tits up, I couldn't care less. A full 90% of my firearms, have always been made in other countries where the pride of workmanship is reflected in the products they make, instead of satisfing stock holders, and bean counters, who care nothing about the quality.

The M70 like the Sherman tank, has served its purpose. Far from equal or superior to the masterful M98, same as Sherman is far from a Panther or Tiger.
lets face it, the M70 was a McdonaldsMauser....yeah 100% beef, , but from which part of the cow?
Its a damn Frakenstein creation. lacking style,lacking grace, with inferior design and function.

you would not have Harley Davidson If Ronald Reagan had not bailed its ass out with large funding. Maybe he would have bailed Winchester out aswell being from the John Wayne camp/era Himself.

I have a newer M70 in .338 mag and it's a great rifle.Also got a couple of remmy"s in 700 and 721 and their all good and far superior to that jap crap brownings they make nowdays.