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I primarily use a 30-06 for hunting elk, but when the weather gets really wet I switch to my all weather 308. I've killed several elk with 165 grain Partitions and Accubonds. I'm considering moving up to the 180 grain bullets in the 308. I'm curious if anyone has experience on elk with 165s and 180s and what insights you might have as to the better elk load. Thanks in advance. | ||
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| one of us |
I've only killed one elk with 180 grain partition. It worked great out of a 300 RUM. I like the .308, but I'd stick with a 165gr partition with the .308 to stay in the bullet's velocity sweet spot (above 1800 fps) for terminal ballistics for a little longer range. | |||
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Pick the one your rifle shoots best. The difference between an 06 and 308 win is ~100 yards. Meaning a 30-06 firing a 180 grain partition at 2750 is doing 1850 fps (50 fps over min impact velocity) at 500 yards and 308 win will be doing 1850 fps at 400 yards. In other words, if you are comfortable shooting an elk at 400 with you 06 then you should be comfortable at 300 with your 308 win. Me personally, I would load a 165/168 Barnes TTSX using CFE-223 at about 2775 if I was using a 308 Win. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Since you have killed several elk with the 165 grain .308 Nosler offerings, I would just stay with that weight and design. Unless, you are just wanting to experiment. I cannot see any logic in the 180 working similar. | |||
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I'm not sure a 600lb+ animal can tell the difference between the 2. Use whichever is most accurate. A dime, a .10cent piece, weighs 35.401 grains. Can an elk tell if it's hit with 4.7 dimes, or 5.1 dimes? I would load the 150gr Barnes TTSX at full throttle and would not worry one bit. | |||
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Moderator |
i use 165 in 308, 30-06, and 300 win ... they work well opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
IMO, this is exactly the logic that should obtain. Well said. | |||
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| One of Us |
An interesting thing, I have killed elk with a: 270 win 284 win 308 win 300 WSM (2) 30-378 weatherby 8x57 338-06 35 Remington 358 Win They all died, no fuss no muss Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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| One of Us |
I've only killed elk with a 180 bullet in .30. That being said, if you killed them with 165's in the past, no reason to change just because. If the rifle shoots the 180's better, then use that. | |||
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| One of Us |
I've used the 168 TSX and the 180 TSX in my 308 for elk and nilgai antelope. I ultimately settled on the 180 because at the time the 180's minimal expansion velocity was 1,500 fps and the 168's was 1,900. That has since been changed and I believe both are in the 1,500 fps range. Of all the elk and antelope I shot I could never tell a difference between the two. My thinking at the time was extending the range of the rifle but all my shots happened with in 300 yds so it never mattered. Both penetrated 30+ inches and expanded to .65 caliber. perry | |||
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One of Us |
Interesting question to me because you are using Nosler partitions and accubonds. Since the partition opens quickly but retains the rear core so well, I don’t think you would see much difference between the 165 or the 180. I hear the accubond is a reliable expander and retainer of weight, maybe you would see a difference. Testing would have to be the judge. I’d probably leave a working solution alone. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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| new member |
Thanks all for the posts and insights. I made a similar switch years ago from 165 to 180 in the 30 06 and have generally noticed that elk shot with the 180 either go down immediately, or stop moving when shot, whereas elk shot with the 165 often run off but are recovered a short distance away. I've considered making the switch with the 308 but wanted to see what others have observed as the 308 is running at lower velocities than the 30 06. Appreciate the insights. | |||
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| One of Us |
Put either pill in the boiler room. | |||
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| One of Us |
It depends on the range. That was the point of Mike's post above. | |||
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| one of us |
You'd have to shoot a great many elk under very similar conditions to make any statistically valid conclusion from "how they act". How an elk reacts to a shot depends on not just the kind of bullet and its velocity, but more so on where the animal is hit; and some people believe whether its circulatory system is at the systolic or diastolic stage when the bullet strikes. I doubt seeing any consistent difference in 165 and 180 grain bullets of similar construction and proportional velocities. The 180 doesn't travel very fast from a .308 due to limited overall cartridge length, so it requires a bit more precise holdover at extended ranges than the faster 165. For that reason a 165 is the heaviest I ever use in a .308. | |||
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| new member |
Thank you, good information. | |||
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| one of us |
Ive never been able to notice any difference in a 165 gr NOsler partition and a 180 in the 308, other than the 100 fps, and 15 grs. of lead and thats nothing IMO... I use both bullets in my pre 64 fwt. Win. in 30-o6 and my 99 in 308, with a shoulder shot any difference notice by anyone is in the mind of the beholder IMO..I use the 99 for hunting horseback and the M-70 walking or driving around. I do have a tendency to shoot the 200 gr. Nosler partition or accubond in my 30-06, its been an awesome killer so far..and seems to knock elk down, but wouldn't swear to anything when it comes to caliber discussion..proper bullet construction weighs more than caliber with me. Id suggest use 165 in the 308 and 180s in an 06 and 200 in the 30 magnums if you have the option, just makes good since.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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One of Us |
I've killed 1/2 dozen elk with the 308 and 165's. I've never seen the need for a 180.  | |||
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| One of Us |
I like the .308 / 180 NP for elk, but have only shot a couple with that combination. And a couple with 165 NP. And as already mentioned there is very little practical difference. I like to think the 180 is slightly more likely to provide full penetration and an exit wound, something I personally favour. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have killed many animals with the 308 Win both here and in Africa. I use only Barnes TSX in 168 grain. This bullet performs well and penetrates deeply and expands well. I feel a 180 grain in the 308 is counter productive as you loose speed and have more arch in the trajectory. As for me it’s 165 or 168 grain in the Barnes TSX. | |||
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One of Us |
I load 165 gr A-Frames for my 308 Win bolt actions. Killed everything up to elk and blue wildebeest. 22.4" barrel, 2,775 fps. I load 180 gr Sciroccos for my buddies 30-06. 22.4" barrel, 2,745 fps. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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One of Us |
I've shot a few game with the 165gr and the 180gr. Couldn't tell a difference "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
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| one of us |
The only advantages that can be found are in the 165s. I am back from a long Hiatus... or whatever. Take care. smallfry | |||
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One of Us |
When Hornady first came out with Lightmagnum ammo, it was faster and as accurate as my handloads so I quit loading my .308 and went hunting. Still the same for the 165 grain Hornady Superperformance. Accurate and a good killer out to 300 yards in my rifle. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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| one of us |
The only reason I shoot the .308 is because I have a well used Sav. mod 99F and I favor the 150 and 165 gr. bullets. In my pre 64 Win fwt 30-06 I like the 180 gr. Nosler Accubond and the 200 gr. partition.. I see no reason to deprive myself of any bullet weight, make, or whatever...but in general I always have 60 or more of the above loaded at all times and these particular loads seem to shoot to the same POI, and thats handy.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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For those who think the 180 is too heavy and sacrifices velocity might take into consideration that the 308 even in a savage 99, can get an easy 2600 FPS with a 180 gr. and reasonalbe pressure.. the 30-06 can beat it with a safe 2700 fps, both can be upped to over max, but the difference will remain at a 100 fps with the most max of loads and that has been 2700 to 2800 at boths best.. That aint much to argue on!!  I like the 165 gr. bullets for deer and elk, but the 165 seems to me to be neither fish nor fowl...I would suggest the 150 for deer and the 180 for elk! why mostly because if someone wounds an elk and you get a Texas Heart shot oppertunity I like the 180 Nosler penetrating advantage..Its good insurance with all calibers and the only real reason to go heavy.. the monolithics change the playing field and the lighter bullets sometimes work as well as the heavies, but these also have pros and cons and thats another subject.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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One of Us |
My rifles say the same thing. I dont think you gain anything at all by going to a 180 gn with a 308. Might as well keep a flatter trajectory. Once you discover peas an carrots, who needs broccoli?  AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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| one of us |
Your putting a lot of faith in 100 FPS thats gained with the 165, add to that a 180gr. boat tail holds its velocity better way out yonder, balistics 101 .....Food for thought only, not sure it makes much difference anyway you look at it.. The bottom line is the 308 shoots the 165 at the same velocity the 30-06 shoots a 180 and that gives the 30-06 an edge of 20 grs. and no more than 100 fps at best..not even the power of a 22LR to the 06s credit...just think about it!!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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