Planning a Elk hunt this fall. I have been watching THE BEST OF THE WEST on TV. They use Berger bullets for long range shooting and talk about how good the bullets perform on game. Last week I shot a grounghog with a Berger bullet 52 gr. out of a 22-250 @100 yards. The bullet did not exit the hog. My question is how will a 168 gr. 7mm bullet perform on a big game @ 100 yards?
THANKS
JY

Read the article in the latest Handloader magazine by John Barsness.

According to him, in a nutshell, they work.
But would limit their use to 400 lb critters and below.

I personally use TSX's and Nosler partitions.

bergers are not designed to exit, they are designed to expand rapidly and dump all of the energy in the animal.

why do you want the bullet to exit?

did the groundhog not die? get away wounded or what?

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
bergers are not designed to exit, they are designed to expand rapidly and dump all of the energy in the animal.

why do you want the bullet to exit?

did the groundhog not die? get away wounded or what?

The Berger's were not design with expansion or hunting in mind.Bergers were deigned as TARGET bullets and were found to work as hunting bullets as well.Many people have been useing them for years......

I believe Berger makes some bullets designed for varmints too--their MEF, or Max Expansion Factor bullets. Not something I'd personally use on anything but paper or varmints though.

Folks shooting game with the Berger bullet have found that they kill animals and targets too. The explanation is even though they have thin jackets, the very small hollow point and the very long ogive delay expansion until the bullet has gone some 2" (at least as measured in ballistic media). This means they will get into the chest of a deer before expanding. JB says he thinks they will work on lighter animals.

They won't work if the animal is too large, or if the shot geometry is not the ideal broadside shot.

How about a nice TSX instead?

jim

Why worry about it? Get you a 160gr NP or a 160gr Grand Slam and kill your elk. At 100 yards or 400 yards (if you can hit him).
I'd hate to be in the middle of an elk hunt with king elk in my cross hairs and have the thought "wonder if that guy that's paid to tout these bullets is full of shit or for real?" run thru my mind.
There's a bunch of 7mm bullets, both standard and boutique, that have a proven track record. Why take a chance on a target bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
bergers are not designed to exit, they are designed to expand rapidly and dump all of the energy in the animal.
why do you want the bullet to exit?

did the groundhog not die? get away wounded or what?

The Berger's were not design with expansion or hunting in mind.Bergers were deigned as TARGET bullets and were found to work as hunting bullets as well.Many people have been useing them for years......

well, MR berger says it on it his website..

"The MATCH VLD bullets are proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullet available. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate up to 3 inches before it starts to expand. This delayed expansion results in a wound channel that is deep inside the vital area of any big game. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 80% to 90% of its weight into the surrounding tissue traveling as deep as 18 inches. This results in a massive wound cavity that creates the greatest possible amount of tissue damage and hemraging within the vital area (organs). This massive and extensive wound cavity result in the animal dropping fast. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow but instead expend all of their energy right where it is most effective, inside the animal. Bullets that poke through so that they can cause a blood trail are designed to result in a hunter tracking a wounded animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger VLD will be on your next hunt"

i was talking to someone who does a lot of long range hunting, and he said that VLDS are the best long range bullet hes used. thats not to say a partition wouldnt be better suited at 100 yards.

Yes, yes, we've all heard the arguments but it doesn't hurt to take your umbrella to the game even tho the sun is shining.
Why do I owe it to myself to field test Mr Berger's bullets for him? If he wants to send me a box, I might give them a go. Or if he wants to arrange me a fancy hunt to a game farm, I'd feel obliged to kill a few goats like Mr. Barsness did. But until he does, I'll stick to the tried and true, thank you very much. Yes, you could say I'm something of a luddite.

Go here and read the article by John Barnsess about hunting with the Berger bullets it is a good read..........



http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl248partial.pdf

I can assure you, first hand, that a 175gr Berger VLD from a 308 Winchester out to 300yds is a deer killing machine. On Elk, I have no idea. I am a Nosler partition guy with Elk.

quote:

Last week I shot a grounghog with a Berger bullet 52 gr. out of a 22-250 @100 yards. The bullet did not exit the hog.

Whether you should use Berger VLDs on game depends on whether you think this is a good thing or a bad thing. If you think its "good", then I would go ahead and load up some of Walt’s 7mm 168gn bullets and go get an elk.

If you think that a bullet retained in the animal is "bad" then use some of the other suggestions such as Barnes X or Nosler Partition.

I have used bullets of both styles and dont have a strong opinion either way.

This is an eye opener about bullets. Special thanks to jwp475 for the article on Berger bullets.
THANKS to ALL
JY

With all the good things I have read about them, I still don't think on an elk hunt is where I would be testing them out at...

I'd stick with traditional on elk.. test it out on deer first...

but it is your elk hunt, so good luck, which ever route you take!

regards
seafire

I have 2 boxes of VLD 168 7mm and 2 boxes of .30 cal 185 VLD to try. Don't know when I'll get to them.

jy,

In regard to your question on the 7mm 168grain Bergers. I just got back from South Afica last week where I took Black Wldebeest ( 230yd bang flop ) Kudu ( 365yd penetrated both shoulders with good exit wound 30yd blood trail ) Springbok ( 90yd bang flop ) Blesbok ( 60yd bang flop ) Impala ( 40yd bang flop ) Gemsbok ( 120 yd blood trail, Raking shot going away shot entered behind last rib and exited blowing out off side shoulder ). At home I have used these same bullets for hogs, Axis deer and white tails with no problems whatsoever and they are the most accurate I have tried to date. Would I use one on an Elk? U - Betcha, and I would be durned confident it would " Go where I aimed it ", and do it's job once it got there.

i've only seen groundhogs shot with the 168's.to say they kill them is an understatement.have also seen deer shot with the 180's out to over 1200 yards and talked to those that have killed elk over 1400. berger bullets are an excellent hunting bullet. hopefully i'll be hunting elk next fall and will be using their new 338 bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
...Kudu 365yd penetrated both shoulders with good exit wound 30yd blood trail ... Gemsbok 120 yd blood trail, Raking shot going away shot entered behind last rib and exited blowing out off side shoulder. ...

According to Mr. Berger, those Bullets are NOT supposed to perform like that. By JTEX's excellent list of Game taken, 2 of 5 did not perform as Mr. Berger expected - 40% problem? (By the way, I always want an Exit, prefer for the Game to drop at the shot and do not find those two requirements to be in conflict with each other.)

Soooo, since the Berger Bullets did "NOT" perform as Mr. Berger said they should/would, do you all think there is a Design Problem, Manufacturing Problem, no Problem at all, or a large pile of Marketing Hype bologna about them in these words:

quote:

"Supposedly by" Mr. Berger(or a Marketing Fool):
...don't poke through like an arrow but instead expend all of their energy right where it is most effective, inside the animal. Bullets that poke through so that they can cause a blood trail are designed to result in a hunter tracking a wounded animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot.

Hey JTEX, Congratulations on the excellent 1-shot(?) Kills. Do you get Exits on the Hogs with the Bergers?

Nosler Partitions, Hornady round noses (160-175), or Speer Grandslams. All have done well for me on elk. Another bullet that will surprise you is the Sierra GameKing, if well placed. Use a 175 in that bullet for elk.

I dont care how many article some chair warming gunwriter writes, bergers are TARGET bullets. Use a permium bonded bullet, and you wont have any regrets. Skip the propaganda articles; sometimes i wonder if all the praises heaped on products by our writers are true, no body would ever have bullet failure!

All I have to say on the subject is that if Walt Berger says anything -listen . You will learn a lot.
Glenn

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
bergers are not designed to exit, they are designed to expand rapidly and dump all of the energy in the animal.

why do you want the bullet to exit?

did the groundhog not die? get away wounded or what?

Whether a bullet exits or not is immaterial unless the animal moves off. In that case, an exit hole lets more blood out than an entry wound, giving you a better chance of finding a blood trail to follow.

The only thing that really matters is whether or not the bullet has sufficient penetration to reach a vital organ or two, and additionally, if it was directed correctly to do this, given adequate penetration.

It takes mass to sustain penetration in flesh (or any other medium, for that matter). This means th bullet has to remain relatively intact in order to have the penetration needed. I assume the Berger bullets do this, on animals like elk! On a woodchuck, this is not really much of a requirement.......

Hot Core,
Thanks for the congrats. All of those shots were in fact 1 shot kills, the only one that wasn't was on an Nyala, about 190yds with a 300WSM using Sierra 180g SPBT Gameking it took and I had time for 2) shots but I am not sure if the bullet used was a factor. I dont know about bullet failure in the Bergers ( over penetration ) but I do know internal damage was extreme, I think most of the internal damage was caused by the long point of the bullet fragmenting and by bone chips blowing in, these bullets are long, I believe that the rear section retained enough mass for full penetration. I think for the size of the animals, especially the Kudu and the Gemsbok the performance was as close to perfect as I could want. From what I have seen I think an Elks hide is thicker than either a Kudu or a Gemsbok that may explain why they don't have exit wounds. But on the Whitetails and Hogs ( up to I'd guesstimate 110lbs ) I've shot, yes, the bullets did exit. On another note my hunting partner and I shot 2 Axis bucks this past weekend, with no exit wounds ( I have no clue ) his was a broadside 70yd shot with a 300Win using 190g VLDs and mine was 40yds with a 7MM Rem. using the same 168g VLDs quartering in, neither animal travelled over 30 yds from where shot. And yes the magnums were overkill for the distances, but they are what we had with us not having a clue what the shooting ranges would be. Maybe at these close ranges and broadside shots the bullet was trvelling too fast and broke up more. I wished we had recovered the bullets but it was too damn hot to dig around in stinkin gut piles.

I've never used Berger bullets, I've thought about buying some for varminting. I have used Nosler Partitions to take elk and bear and can't find fault with that bullet. I've never had a problem achieving good accuracy out of the Partitions as well. I like exit wounds as well so you can put me in that group. I find it kind of funny that people want a Berger to come apart and loose 80-90% of the bullets weight, but when a Sierra does this it is a bullet failure.

I have used 185 Berger VLD's for 1000 yard target shooting. They are very accurate.

Do not think I would hunt with them.

Hey JTEX, Regardless whether or not they work as the Marketing Bull-onee suggests, you are sure having a fine string of Kills with them. Seems like fine choices in cartridges to me with excellent results.

Continued good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills to you and your buddy.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
... I find it kind of funny that people want a Berger to come apart and loose 80-90% of the bullets weight, but when a Sierra does this it is a bullet failure.

HotCore,
Again thanks, yes, by my experience thus far the VLD's are fine hunting bullets.


Originally posted by taylorce1:
... I find it kind of funny that people want a Berger to come apart and loose 80-90% of the bullets weight, but when a Sierra does this it is a bullet failure.

taylorcel,
I agree with your line of thought, but I guess it would also depend on the amount ( depth )of penetration you got "before" the bullet came apart that would make the difference in how effetive they were. Again, I think that the length of the VLD's has something to do with the overall effect. While I am not as experienced in bullet performance as many on this board and I'm not sure I really care to be ( no offence meant by that ) I do live to hunt. I want the most humane kills possible and enjoy shooting at the range almost weekly these bullets are consistent in weight ( right on the dot actually ) consistent in accuracy, and for me at least very consitant on game. I do shoot a lot of Sierra and they are fine bullets and always have been, but my 7mm loves those Bergers.
There are so many fine bullets out there it would be hard to choose just one, and to each their own. I also think that if you shoot something you have confidence in you are always going to shoot better.

JTEX,

are you the guys with the barrel coating product?

Rich
DRSS

Idaho,
No I'm just an electrician that hunts, or maybe to put it in proper perspective is I do electrical work to support my hunting and shooting. Whereabouts in SW Idaho are you? I hunted for several years out of Caldwell at Lake Lowell, Deer flats NWR, the waterfowling was out of this world.

JTEX, my line of thinking wasn't of bullets having the splash effect. If a bullet splashes on impact leaving a shallow wound that was the fault of the hunter not the bullet. I really don't care if the bullet's cup and core separate as long as it does penetrate to the vitals and does the job as well. If the animal is down and dead quickly then regardless of the bullet separating or not it has done the job without failure.

I use Sierra bullets to hunt with in my .243 and .270 with great success. I like the 100 grain SBT in the .243 and 130 SBT in my .270 they have yet to fail to exit on any game I've shot deer size and down. I use the 150 grain Partitions for elk out of my .270. I've yet to have a Sierra fail on me. I'm not trying to launch the bullets out of a Weatherby Mag at deer inside of 100 yards either.

i can see deer, but not elk with that round. maybe i am just stupid. elk are not like antelope -- one hole and they are eager to give up the ghost. my experience with elk is 180 partition, 30 cal., minimum. those vld pills don't dump anything. they do some penetration, then shred. that is great, but only if you are inside the chest cavity.