The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Tell me how great the 325 WSM is?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Thinking of a 70 Featherweight in this..... | ||
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It's perfect. The knock on the 30-06 (whether true or not) is that "it's not truly an elk cartridge and not big enough for brown bears." The knock on 338 win mag is "too big for every day use." Both the 30-06 and the 388 WM are great all around cartridges. The 325 WSM is right in the middle of the two. How can it not be great?! Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I had a buddy who hunted with a .325 WSM in a Browning A-Bolt stalker. It worked very well on anything he pointed it at including wolf, elk, and mountain goat. I wish I'd get to see more game taken by him and his .325 and .270 WSM rifles, as we lost him a year ago. | |||
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the 325 is probably the most practical and efficient of the wsm cartridges. enough bullet weight, good BC while still being light enough for good velocity. it's a notch above the 8mm-06 without being annoying in the recoil dept. what's not to like. | |||
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Feeding. | |||
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I have owned 2 factory WSMs. They both have fed fine. Each of my nephews have factory WSMs, 1 is a 325 - they both feed fine. I find it hard to believe Winchester decided - "Yeah, these WSMs feed like crap but let's invest a ton of money in them." I think feeding issues you hear about with WSMs are when somebody converts a rifle that was not originally mfg'd to feed WSMs. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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When they hit the market I was working at the Sportsman’s Warehouse there in Meridian. We sold an ass-load of them, which is just shy of a shit-pile. Then they started coming back for feeding issues - a lot of them. One of my friends there used to travel the stores and heard similar stories. Maybe was more prevalent on the front end of the release, but it was painful to get them back and have to send them to Winchester, etc. The WSSMs had similar issues. One of the frustrating things was that sometimes it would take a month or so to get one back because guys would single-load at the bench, and it was only when they got around to stuffing the magazine full, that’s when it all hit the fan. I think the issue is that the shorter the round, the more work it takes To get it to feed like butter, and that mass-scale manufacturing a tricky feeder was harder than they expected. That said, the numbers do make the 325 a good round. | |||
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I can't say much from direct experience, as I've never played around with one. But of the various WSM calibers, the 325 seemed like it would be the first to disappear from that market. Or so I thought anyway. But it seems they continue to be available from distributers like Davidson's. The 7mm WSM has vanished. I've been curious about the 8mm. Maybe my thinking on this is incorrect, but the neck/bullet diameter in relation to case diameter seems like feeding might be less of a problem compared to something like the 270 WSM. I've been told the recoil is noticeably less than a 338 WM. For those that have done some shooting with both, is that true? | |||
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I have one. I have not used it on anything larger than deer, and of course it is adequate for that. But the reason I bought mine is because its a Kimber Montana. It shoots better than I can shoot, but the most important thing for me is easy carrying. Its a rifle that you can carry around all day long and it gives you enough juice to use it for elk if you get the chance to hunt them. I like mine. I also have a .223 WSSM Winchester classic. Both the Kimber and the Winchester feed just fine. No problems. | |||
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I like the 325WSM cartridge a lot. Many cartridges duplicate each other's out of the barrel performance. In a short action, lighter weight rifle, I like its performance potential. As to recoil compared to 338 Win, as in most comparisons the individual rifle has much to do with that. My favorite 338 is heavier than my 325, both recoil differently. The Kimber Montana 325, I do not find the push back objectionable at all. It does have muzzle rise off the bench, particularly if you don't grip the fore end. I have not shot anything with my 325, but have carried it a few times. The lighter rifle is a pleasure at times. I usually use a 375 Ruger or 416 Ruger, or these calibers in other cartridges. I was slow to get on the WSM bandwagon, but own 325, 300, and 7mm WSMs. Sportsman's here has 7 WSM ammo. The reloading brass is what is not prevalent at this time.
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I have a friend who bought a Kimber Montana in 325WSM about 10 or 12 years ago. It has accounted for 2 Moose, 2 Elk, 1 Grizzly, 1 Black Bear, I don't know how many Whitetails, 1 Mule Deer a few dozen odd hogs and 8 head of plains game when he took it to Africa. After Bob's first season with it, it became his primary rifle. All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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Somewhere I still have two boxes of Winchester .325 WSM prototype ammo.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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It is hard not to like his rifle and cartridge combination, and his accomplishments with it. The only personal biatch that I have with my Kimber Montana's is, I would prefer an open style trigger instead of box type. Though it does not both me enough to prevent me from having more than one of them. Which reminds me, I have one in 338 Win. In factory form, for my use for a lighter weight rifle, I will take the Kimber Montana in 325 over the 338. I am a 338 fan also. But the Montana in 325 seems just right to me.
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Its a 8mm/06 Ackley in a fat house..I probably should have chambered my 8mm/06 Ackley to the 325, but oh well, that's a done deal. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I've shot about 15 critters with it on a couple different continents. I've always used the 200 TSX Barnes and its a "DRT" combination. My son used it on a couple critters and my wife used it once to kill a HUGE bull elk. No flies on the Win CRF rifle or the cartridge. I don't know how it happened but my son-in-law talked me out of it and killed a moose and a couple elk with it too. I even think his dad killed a moose in Alaska with it. Zeke | |||
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Impressive track record with that 325 and 200 TSX. The 200 grain TSX shoots very well in my Kimber Montana. Though, I have not shot anything with it but paper, I expect it would perform excellently. I still look for a SS Classic M70 in 325. During that looking, I have acquired them in 7mm and 300 WSM. Each was bought with the idea of re-barreling to 325. But, I left as is and still look for the 325. | |||
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Today I acquired a New Haven, M70 Classic stainless in 325. I have been looking for awhile. Of course, I had purchased a stock for it about a year ago. Surprise, this one has 1 piece factory bottom metal. The other WSM’s that I have all have 2 piece. I suppose Winchester started the 1 piece shortly before they closed the doors. This is a stainless with the walnut featherweight stock. Actually a very nice looking factory rifle in my opinion. But, for using I am going with fiberglass. Now, I suppose I shall have to resume the search for a stainless classic with 2 piece bottom metal for the empty stock. | |||
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I have two 325 WSMs. They are the cat's meow as far as I'm concerned. I'll killed grizzly in Alaska, coues deer in Mexico (510 yards), and a butt load of African Plains game with them. My last Namibian PH nick-named it the 'Hammer of Thor', and it has been to Namibia, South Africa and Zimbabwe. 200 Grain Accubonds have done the trick for me. I have never had any feeding issues with either one. Both are Model 70s mounted with Swarovski Z-5's with custom ballistic turrets from Outdoorsmans of Phoenix. One was custom made by MG Arms and has the 'zebra' pattern synthetic stock. The other was customized with a beautiful piece of Bastogne Walnut purchased from Cecil Fredi, by Canyon Creek Gunstocks in Montana. Funny thing, my veteran Alaskan guide loves that caliber so much that he has four of them.  I also love shooting the Winchester 300 WSM and that caliber has accounted for mule deer, coues deer, whitetail, antelope and over 50 plains game in Africa, including one giraffe. I recall shooting my first Eland with the 300 WSM back in 2002. It dropped in its tracks.  My four 300 WSMs love Federal 180 grain trophy bondeds. | |||
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If I have said it once, I have said it 10 times... How can a cartridge that splits the difference between a 30-06 (not quite big enough for the big stuff) and a 338 WM (just a little too big for every day), not be perfect. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I would enjoy hunting with a 325WSM, but we already have a couple of 338's in US and TZ. Both the 325 and 338 are about optimal for all-around, NorthAmerican hunting. Neither the hunters nor the animals are going to notice any difference between the two. The question comes down to finding the right rifle. Tikka used to make a beautiful lightweight 338WM. Technically, they still do, but new ones are not imported by Beretta into the USA. Browning, Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Savage, etc., all make great factory 338's, which are certainly not worse than a 325WSM. So see what you can find or want to build. I recommend getting a rifle as light as possible/practical, since a hunter tends to carry one allday and they don't even remember the recoil for that one shot at an animal. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Use Enough Gun, You have definitely put the 325 to use ! I have yet to kill anything with mine. Though have no doubt that it is a versatile cartridge. I should really hunt with mine. I just have a hard time not using my shorter barrel 375’s and 416’s in the terrain that I frequent. Mike_Dettorre, I agree, I think the 325 is an outstanding cartridge. I got on the band wagon following Winchester’s past demise. The Kimber Montana in 325 is a favorite rifle. I think the 325 is close to my elusive near-perfect do-it-all cartridge. I have a buddy that has killed quite a few Alaskan critters with his. | |||
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416Tanzan, I luv the 338 Winchester, have a couple of them. My 325 in a Kimber Montana is a pleasure to shoot and carry. I think with a 200 grain TSX it should do well on any hoofed game to be encountered in North America.
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ldmay375: I have two Winchester 338's, one in a Browning A-Bolt and the other in a Browning Belgium BAR. Both sit in the gun safe. I did kill a Bison with the BAR and a 6X8 bull elk with the A-Bolt. But, that was before the 325 WSM. By the way, my veteran Alaskan guide lives in Eagle River, the same town that our youngest daughter, her husband and four boys live in. One of the other Alaskan guides that I am familiar with was given a 325 WSM this past spring and he hunted and killed a huge interior grizzly with it last June. He was very impressed with the caliber and says that it has become his favorite. By the way, I am very familiar with the Mat-Su Valley! I love spending time in the wilds of Alaska! | |||
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Use Enough Gun, Your family and friends are definitely in my area of operation. I being a fairly frequent visitor to Boondock establishment. Hopefully when you get up this way again we will be able to meet. I have become a convert of the shorter barrels over the past several years, and do enjoy the 375's and 416's. I mostly hunt in pretty limited visibility area, and usual by myself. I did carry my Kimber 325 part of one year. Each year prior to moose season, I go through the mental exercise of rifle & caliber/cartridge for use. The are always the same four contenders to cartridge, 325, 338, 375, 416. The short barrels have been the winners after their first use. Real or imagined, I find them less of a hassle in confined space areas. The 20" 375 and 416 Rugers see the most use. The 416 version may be pulling ahead of the 375. But, I still have the desire to shoot something with the 325. I truly believe is a dang good cartridge. The Kimber I have groups factory loaded DoubleTap 200 grain TSX very well. I have everything I need to hand-load for it, just has not been priority. The 338 Winchester, I did shoot one moose with it using a 225 grain TSX. It dropped immediately with a side chest shot, a doa on bullet arrival. Of course that does not always happen. But, I anticipate very similar bullet performance from the 325. Btw, that looks like one heck of a Leopard in your profile picture. | |||
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416Ruger +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I own one. Its a Kimber Montana. Its shoots better than I can. I like it because its light to carry. There is a little kick there, but nothing a person couldn't handle. I'd like to have one also in the Winchester Model 70. KJK | |||
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I agree that the Kimber Montana in 325 is a pleasure to carry. I enjoy shooting mine, and have no complaints with its grouping of 200 grain TSX. I actually have 2 of these Kimbers. I am pondering cutting one of the barrels to 22”. | |||
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You can get a better look see of the leopard if you look at the thread "Post Your Favorite African Picture", under African Big Game Hunting. By the way, my daughter has a little business in Eagle River that you should try: Sodaandsmore. They have all kinds of hot and cold beverages and freshly baked cookies. Different cookies each week. Any kind of cold beverage mixture (no alcoholic ones of course)that your heart may desire, as well as all of the hot drinks, coffees, lattes, hot chocolates, etc. etc. etc. | |||
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The only thing I don't like about it, is that the fat little cartridge eats magazine space. Go hard! | |||
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I don't worry about magazine space. Three shots are all that a person needs in any 10-second period. More important is finding the right rifle platform. I just checked and Kimber is NOT offering the 325WSM anymore, nor a 338 for that matter. You almost had me thinking of a good reason for my son getting a 325WSM this year. Now what? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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heck, the 338 win is amazing - the 8-06 was/is a darling - a 338 -06 has a cult following. the 8 remmag was amazing - 8x338 worked great ... it's what, 2.5% smaller case volume than a 338? all in all, it's a very practical HAMMER #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Winchester has it in a number of Model 70 platforms: Extreme Weather, Featherweight, Sporter, Coyote. . . . . . My Custom MG Arms is built on a Model 70 action, as is my Custom Canyon Creek Gunstocks rifle. | |||
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I agree with 416Tanzan, I have never fretted on the magazine capacity of the WSM’s. My 7mm Rem mag, 300 Winchester, 300 WBY, 375’s, 416’s, 458 Winchester, and one of my 458 Lott’s have the same 3 in the magazine capacity. I have never considered it detrimental.
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I really like this caliber and cartridge. 160 grain at 3300 to 220 grain at 2750. I would use it for anything in North America. | |||
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jeffeosso, Agreed. And especially if someone is a short action fan. The 325 makes a neat little package.
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JonP, I am a one bullet type. The 200 TSX shoots well in 2 of the 325’s I have. I have only killed paper with mine. But, have to urge to try for a moose again with the 325. But, that will be after I make the move to cut a barrel to 22”. As for as a North American all-arounder cartridge I think it rates high on the list. I know it and lesser cartridges work on the bigger bears. I will admit, it would be my absolute personal minimum for big bears in limited visibility areas. I would feel better with my 375, and better yet with my 416. Purely a personal thing. With some breathing room distance, I would have no hesitation. The Swift Reloading manual #2 has some pretty impressive loads for the 200 and 220 grain A-Frames.
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458Win, aka Phil Shoemaker, just comment on a 24hr Campfire thread about the 325 and big bears. Basically stating, anything more larger and powerful than a 270 Win and 30-06 work just fine. Phil of course, has More than ample experiences with the real-Big bears. He referenced experiences with the 270 Winchester and 30-06. | |||
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Thanks, Idmay.
It's nice to see Winchester maintaining some great calibers like the 325WSM and 338WinMag. I noticed that they cover entry level, too, with the XPR models. Too many rifle models stop at 30-cal, which is not a bad place, but not the end of the line of practical, day-to-day calibers. Mossberg even does a 375Ruger, also a nice little Alaskan round. I would probably buy a Mossberg in 416Ruger just to thank them for their vision. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Yes, I have an XPR in Kuiu Vias, but that one is in 300 WSM. The XPR is a nice, basic rifle at the lower end of the financial spectrum for Winchester, but it is indeed accurate. It has a detachable magazine and is a bit different in design than the Model 70, but is a no nonsense rifle. I prefer the Model 70s over the XPR because the Model 70s are CRF and have the three position safety. The XPR is push feed and two position safety. The other thing about the XPR is that in mounting a scope BE SURE to purchase Winchester's rings and bases that are specifically made for it. I didn't at first, and had problems sighting in my Swarovswki Z-5 until I finally did. I would also purchase an extra detachable magazine as well. It's been to Alaska with me too. 416Tanzan: In my opinion, there are no flies on the XPR if you are looking for something for your son in 325WSM. My two 325 WSMs are the MG Arms and the Canyon Creek Custom Gunstocks customized Model 70s as stated above. | |||
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It is ALWAYS the Indian. Not the arrow ! Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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