quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
DG hunters usually would prefer to see the beast DEAD-ASAP to minimise chances of the beast possibly gaining
any advantage over the hunter.

[QUOTE] '..a larger round will kill faster..'[endQUOTE]

iF larger bores kill quicker, then I am trying to understand why, anyone thoroughly convinced of this,
would then willingly give that advantage away {under any DG hunting circumstance},
and instead choose a 9,3x62..??

For buffalo a person normally uses the biggest rifle/bullet combination at hand. And one must also factor in the limitations. Some combinations are really only good for clear broadside shots, and other shots should be passed up. For that matter, a strong 243 bullet from behind the ear will put buffalo meat on the table. And if 9.3 is a 'good' buffalo combo, then wouldn't a 338WM or 300 WM/Weath with monolithic bullets be as good or even better?

Let's look at the capacity of the 9.3. It is basically a 270/30-06 case. And there have been many a buffalo taken with a 270 (more often a 7x57) and 30-06 (frequently a 303), and this has been legal in various climes and times past. One must pose the question, why have game departments generally outlawed such great cartridges as the 30-06, a proven DRT buffalo killer, if bigger is not better? Could it be that the smaller calibres were generating too many 'buffalo stories' with the hunter or unsuspecting neighbors on the sorry end?

As mentioned many a time, all considerations on calibre for buffalo are a multi-factored composite compromise. That means various shades of gray, for those who think in black and white.
But implicit in the very notion of a legal minimum
is that bigger is better, safer,-- others things being equal, which they never are.

If the legal strictures were removed I would happily and CAREFULLY hunt buffalo with a 338. But then again, I would CAREFULLy hunt buffalo with a 416 or 500, and would grab the 416 over the 338 provided that the rifle were accurate, reliable, and the bullet of adequate construction.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

For buffalo a person normally uses the biggest rifle/bullet combination at hand.

'at hand'..?
You make it sound like people knowingly choose the most conveniently available DG rifle/chambering,
rather than one they believe is best suited for the job of hunting DG.

Hunting DG one can reasonably expect DG to offer the hunter any kind/angle/distance of shot,
one may be more selective on the first shot, but may not have the same luxury on the potential follow-Up.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

For buffalo a person normally uses the biggest rifle/bullet combination at hand.

'at hand'..?
You make it sound like people knowingly choose the most conveniently available DG rifle/chambering,
rather than one they believe is best suited for the job of hunting DG.

Hunting DG one can reasonably expect DG to offer the hunter any kind/angle/distance of shot,
one may be more selective on the first shot, but may not have the same luxury on the potential follow-Up.

'At hand' is a way of recognizing that many different kinds of scenarios present themselves.

For example, suppose one is tracking a group of hartebeest with a 338 in hand when one encounters a nice dagga boy? Currently in TZ, by law one must pass up the shot. The other way works fine. While tracking a buffalo with a 416 in hand a person is legally entitled to disengage that hunt and drop a hartebeest or guinea fowl. (Yes, an accurate 416 works fine for guinea fowl. Trust me. 338, too. )

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... why have game departments generally outlawed such great cartridges as the 30-06, a proven DRT buffalo killer, if bigger is not better?
Could it be that the smaller calibres were generating too many 'buffalo stories' with the hunter or unsuspecting neighbors on the sorry end?

Reading Bells writings, - he clearly mentions the high proportion of hunters who got mauled or killed,
when attempting to hunt lion with cartridges like the 7x57,
- He clearly put it down to them being novices and unable/unreliable at placing their shot(s) under pressure.
- He clearly pointed out that hunting DG with smaller bores was definitely not for novices to attempt.

Bell didnt survive by luck,
he survived by doing what was critically required to make the smaller bores very effective on DG.
HE definitely didnt rely on the judgement call of a hired PH telling him when to shoot..[or to save his bacon].

I get the impression that[in some peoples minds]that just going bigger N' bigger in bore size,
is somehow going to make up for ones lack of shooting proficiency.

For alot of people I figure that the likes of 9,3x62, .375HH and body shots - are their best option.
leaving the more demanding pressure situation brains shots -with 7x57 or intimidating BigBores,
..to the much more seasoned & capable individuals.

I want to spend a pair of pennies here, using some example told to me by a friend, a veterinarian.
He had the possibility to test his loads and cartridges, shooting cattles when they were in slaughter. He tested a lot of calibers starting from .22LR to arrive to .44 magnum, using pistols and revolvers.

Well at the end the results were that normally any cartidge tested kills the cattles, when shooted in the brain, immediately and without problems, but only the most powerfull cartidges, starting from .357Mag to 44 Mag can stop the animal in its tracks, the other calibers still permit some shift after the hit.

If I remember well in Green Hills of Africa Hengway describes a Buffalo kill made with a 30-06 Springfield his light rifle,and some where I remember that a japanese lady did the same some year ago, and it was a clean "one shot one kill" situation.

Now we can argue what many have written and affirmed, shoot placement is at first place in a hunt, in the worst situation, well shoot placement is again the winning argument.
Of course in both situation if the hunter is able in controlling the big power of a big caliber, better for him, probably he will be helped by all the energy.

There was also some photo here on AR of the head of a buffalo killed in a charge, I do not remember how many bullett entering holes he had in the front and boss area.

Relying on 'energy' figures as a measure of effectiveness/lethality, can be misleading.

In fact, the less energy a projectile may use/shed/dump along its path through the animal,
the more effective the projectile may be.

To explain:

a projectile may shed all its energy & momentum, before actually reaching the vitals.

another projectile of same[or even less energy], may travel all the way to the vitals and also then exit
actually dumping/using less energy in the process -but resulting in a more effective shot.

Broadheads have made complete fatal pass-throughs on Elephant broadside, with a mere 110 ft/lb energy on impact.
What rifle bullet with 110ft/lb energy on impact, can be trusted to achieve anywhere near the same?


Three different projectiles:

3lb rubber ball @50fps
3lb steel-tip spear @50fps
500gn .458cal @2100fps

all have the same 'momentum' .....

You couldn't count how many buffalo were killed by the Boers in the first thirty years of the 20th century with Otto Bock's nifty little 9,3x62.

375 is the lower limit for the Dangerous Five, but the 9,3x 62 and 74R are usually allowed. A 95% 375 option, a rifle could be made a pound lighter and a 22" barrel is enough to get the velocity you need.

My preference on Buffalo and bigger stuff would be either a 416 Rigby or a good 458 something.

That said, Lord willing and I get back to Africa one more time for DG, I will be carrying a 404J.

Absolutly the worlds longest conversation, the most debated in Gundome! I think the first time I heard it was about 1945, but it had to do with the 25-35 as opposed to a magnum like a 30-30 or 300 Savage...

Same discussion on the light mediums to the 600 N.E....nothing changed but ideas, and some jump from one camp to the other several times in their respective lifetimes..I know I have..

I've tried the 7x57, 8x57, 308, and some others on buffalo, and they all worked. Ive used up to the 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs, and 500 Jefferys and they worked also..I have been charged a couple of times and that sure put me in the big bore camp until it wore off..

I have settled on somewhere in between, moderation always works, the .375, .338, or 9.3x62, suits me these days, as age has got its clutches on this old body and I simply shoot the lighter recoiling calibers better,mostly due to a roping incident that took its toll on my right hand, heavy recoil hammers that knuckle and it hurts like hell, makes developing a flinch real easy.. Besides all that I know my 404, 450-400, or 416 is better any way you cut it, if you can shoot it comfortably...I also know that I can get by with the 375 and 9.3s and the .338 Win. works as well but its not legal anywhere.

I am convienced if one has the wheretofore to wait until a proper shot presents itself, and the ability to carefully place that shot with a properly constructed bullet then all ends well. Unfortunatly some do not have that kind of dicipline, including some PHs, nor can they afford the luxury of passing up on a nice bull when a big bore might work??..Just depends on the individuals involved. Its also easier for one with a lot of buffalo hunting under his belt to be more disaplined than a first time hunter who is fired up and has invested lots of money in a perhaps once in a lifetime hunt, and that certainly understandable, especially as the hunt is coming to an end and no buff.

The discussion will wage itself on into the next centuries after all of us are gone, thats for sure. It is what it is!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Absolutly the worlds longest conversation, the most debated in Gundome!
The discussion will wage itself on into the next centuries after all of us are gone, thats for sure.

Well said!

Since the thread started

I have been...

Shot a cape

Back

Put my feet up

You guys are still at it

BTW I used 9.3x62

It was totally utterly illegal but I tipped bloody well

Money speaks louder than any gun in Africa

I suggest get offline and do some real hunting

As we say in england in the good old days

Carry on chaps .....

the 9.3 works well on big australian buff, i'd use it on other big game any day, say with a 286gr woodie or tsx

The 9.3x62 and the .375 are excellent buffalo rifle calibers IMO and they require properly placed shots and properly constructed bullets, and the lack of recoil helps with proper placement, and they are the two calibers I use today..For elephant I like my 416 Rem or 404 Jefferys built on Rem 30-S actions (Enfields)..

As to charge stoppers, I feel like a brain shot is best insurance under most conditions, and very do-able if one is calm and collected and can wait one out until the time is right, and that's not a bad practice.

I killed a couple of Buffalo with Barry and AJ Van Heerden some years ago with my .338 Win as the shots required a scope and I used a good solid, and two more some years later, in all cases, the first shot was perfect, but all of the bulls traveled a bit further than I was comfortable with even though they left real good blood trails and all were found dead, I figure that much real estate could be problematic under some circumstances. I love the .338 Win. but its my go to elk rifle most of the time in Idaho where the thick stuff is.

I have not noticed that in the 9.3x62 or the .375 on buffalo as to distance traveled, so far its been 50 to 75 yards and a "beller" and it can only be concluded that the cross section of a bullet, no matter how little, is a factor in killing big animals like buffalo, at least that is my personal conclusion.

Sometimes I feel like too much is made on caliber itself, when other factors create the problems that caliber gets blamed for..other times I feel the oposite!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The 9.3x62 and the .375 are excellent buffalo rifle calibers IMO and they require properly placed shots and properly constructed bullets, and the lack of recoil helps with proper placement, and they are the two calibers I use today..For elephant I like my 416 Rem or 404 Jefferys built on Rem 30-S actions (Enfields)..

As to charge stoppers, I feel like a brain shot is best insurance under most conditions, and very do-able if one is calm and collected and can wait one out until the time is right, and that's not a bad practice.

I killed a couple of Buffalo with Barry and AJ Van Heerden some years ago with my .338 Win as the shots required a scope and I used a good solid, and two more some years later, in all cases, the first shot was perfect, but all of the bulls traveled a bit further than I was comfortable with even though they left real good blood trails and all were found dead, I figure that much real estate could be problematic under some circumstances. I love the .338 Win. but its my go to elk rifle most of the time in Idaho where the thick stuff is.

I have not noticed that in the 9.3x62 or the .375 on buffalo as to distance traveled, so far its been 50 to 75 yards and a "beller" and it can only be concluded that the cross section of a bullet, no matter how little, is a factor in killing big animals like buffalo, at least that is my personal conclusion.

Sometimes I feel like too much is made on caliber itself, when other factors create the problems that caliber gets blamed for..other times I feel the oposite!!

a gut shot with a 458 win mag wont help that much ....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Sometimes I feel like too much is made on caliber itself, when other factors create the problems that caliber gets blamed for..other times I feel the oposite!!

Combine that with multiple adopted terms,formulas,equations and theories
that also contribute to misleading &/or confusing some people,.. ie;

- Stopping power
- Hydrostatic shock
-'TKO'
- Lethal Index formula
- KOV-Knock-Out Value formula
- OGW-Optimal Game Weight formula
- Threshold of wounding potential based on kinetic energy{more energy = more lethality},
- greater Sectional Density is 'better' for increased penetration.
- Water-Jug & WetPack based 'wound channel & lethality' tests
...etc,etc