This is my resonse to Franks question in the other thread. We had 33 resondants over at it so I am curious to learn about the resonders experiences.

Thanks in advance for you responses

Here is the questions I am curious about.

#1-how many elk have you either taken, and or been side by side of the shooter at a lasered 500 yds?

#2-what rounds did you use?

#3-how often do you hunt elk?

#4-when hunting elk is it on your own, or outfitted?

#5-how many elk have you personnally taken?

Many thanks for your time gents, it is almost spring here so I need something to read while waiting and am bored in late winter in Montana.

Mark D

Oops, I'll start by answering my own question
---------------------------------------------
I've taken 9 head @ 500 or beyond

Rounds used= 270 for 3, 7 Mashburn Super for 3 and 340 for 3

I hunt them yearly and have since 1979

I hunt on my own

For my number I would have to do a quick look in my book but I believe it is right at (or about) 31 elk taken

Many thanks

Mark D

#1-how many elk have you either taken, and or been side by side of the shooter at 500 yds?

Five or six. Last elk I shot was at 456 yards per the range finder.

#2-what rounds did you use? I use the 30-06 with 180 gr Hornady SPBT over IMR 4350. I am however switching to the 190 Hornady SPBT over H4831SC at 2740 fps out of my '06. I have been there when the .300 H&H, the 25-06 and the .280 Remington were also used at the mentioned long range.

#3-how often do you hunt elk? Just about every year though I missed the last two years due to deployment to Iraq.

#4-when hunting elk is it on your own, or outfitted? My own but along with the guys I hunt with we set up a pretty good camp.

#5-how many elk have you personnally taken?
Sixteen

Larry Gibson

Larry thanks for your reply, this is a good start.

MD

Mark , I have taken 33 elk as of now .(I guess I should change my user name to elk 33 ).
All have been taken with---- 30:06-3 ea.
300 Win Mag. - 2 ea. and the rest with 338 Win Mag.(my favorite ).All but 4 were 300 yds. and beyond , with 3 at 500 and change .The 4 were 10 ft. to 25 yds. I find that they are getting bigger every year , and harder to pack up the mountain .I retired in Jan. and am now 63 .I no longer have pack animal's so must count on my young friends for help .

Best guess is about 300, being the ancient 40 yrs that I am we didn't use range finders.

My first 8 elk were all taken with an 06, 180 core lockt's.

I hunt every year, but when I moved to Bozeman I really slowed down the intesity. I hunted every year, but probably no more than 1 or 2 weekends a year. The job I had at the time made it quite difficult to leave town.

I've never used used an outfitter.

I've shot about 12 elk, as mentioned above the first 8 were take with a pump 06. The last 4 have all been taken with a Remmy 7 mag. I think this is the best all around rifle that I've ewver shot and will never shoot anything different in North America. Anybody that thinks you need anything bigger than that really needs some range time.

1)none,377 yards the farthest and about 6 over 300 yards.

2)300ultramag-9 elk,7mmstw-5 elk,8mmremmag-1 elk

3)hunt elk every year since 1991

4)have hunted elk three times with outfitters

5)killed 15 elk myself

Stubble-pretty amazing how few of the other posters are chiming in on eh?

Mark D

My post just reflected my opinion that the 300 win mag would do the job at 500 yds and did not trash any other calibers

I have shot 2 bulls, one at 100 yards and the other at 245 yds

Shot both with the 300 win mag, the one at 100 yards with a 200 gr Swift A Frame and the one at 245 yards with a 180 gr TSX

I hunt Elk once a year for a week but only started 6 years ago.

Both of my bulls were unguided open range that I found and stalked alone.

The question on the other post that I was addressing was whether the 300 win mag was adequate or a 300 RUM was needed. Again, IMO, the 300 win mag will do it.

1. I was in on 1 elk taken years ago before lasers.
2. 7 REM Mag
3. I hunted elk for about 4 years back in the 70's and started again in the last 4 years.
4. hunt on my own
5. 2 elk the last at 340 yrs with a 358 STA this is my rifle of choice for this I also have a 300 Ultra and 2 358/300 Ultra mags but the STA is my favorite.

Hoeram

Mark, honest question.
1) none out to 500, was with my buddy when he put one into a bull @ 465yds, .338wm @ handloaded 210grNPs, that Montana boy can shoot.
3) I hunt every year I can draw, 5 years now, always w/ a friend on our own.
4) I've taken two bulls, one cow. Been in on the taking of 2 cows & 3 add'l. bulls. My farthest was 325yds/ .338-06, the others were 160gr 7mags. The rest of the guys were shooting 06/180gr loads. Ranges from 125yds to the previously mentioned 465yds (.338wm).
If I'm lucky I'll draw this year, I always bring the .338-06/210grNP & a .280 or 7mag w/ 160grNPs.

I have shot 5 bulls, all less than 150 yards, all taken with a .338.

I haven't hunted them since 98. Started in 91. Was 5/6 on my own, including two 6bys or better.

All of my elk were taken on my own, but with help from my brother.

Once again here is the list of folks that posted over on Franks thread, perhaps we can get more to chime in on their 500 yard experiences. I will note as they give account for their experiences.

300winnie
sierrabravo454
fred338=heard from
reloader=heard from
xman
allandegroot
neverflinch
hoeram=heard from
digital dan
bearcat
thumper470
olarmy
jbd
woods=heard from
djpaintles
pop
stubble=heard from
bigborehunter
magnum 61
hunting 1
mmagg
wsterhunter
hvysider
doublegun
jro45
7magman
anotherazwriter=heard from
el deguello
the_captain
warbird
gixxer
mightypeace
paul h

Many thanks and make it your best day

Mark D

Mark,

I think if you will reread the posts over on the other thread they were most all speaking of capable ballistics at that range. And when speaking ballistics, there are many cartridges that have more than enough ballistics at that range to do the job on any NA animal. I've taken animals far tougher than elk w/ cartridges you'd probably laugh about but shot placement was key.

I look at it like this: If a bullet at 500 yards carries the energy of a 30-30 win at the muzzle, it has more than enough capabilities for game at that range. If you do not believe that is capable at that range w/ that type of ballistics, don't kid yourself. Before all these modern cartridges came along the 30-30 piled up 1000s of elk at ranges much farther than the muzzle.

I personally feel that a shot at 500 yards is unethical for most all hunters. Shooting at paper and shooting at game are two totally different skills.

If you really want to test some of your rifles at long range on tough animals, See if you can find a guided or self guided trophy boar hunt that is in cropland. I'm talking big boars 300+. That will thoroughly test your cartridge and bullet selection to the max. If you've ever taken a big russian and seen their composition, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Reloader

So Reloader would you please respond to my questions --thanks, I value all experiences and want to hear all about them. Also am curious as to what critters you've taken that you've found to be far tougher than elk?

Lastly, for sure I agree with you about placement no question there.

Mark D

Sorry Mark,

If you are asking about my experience as a hunter, I've taken well over 100 big game animals in NA. I say over 100 because I don't know exactly how many but I can remember many more than that number. That may be very few to some folks but, I feel it gives me a pretty good idea of the hobby.

How many NA game animals have you taken?

It really doesn't matter how many anyone has taken, I say that because I know some complete idiots that have taken piles of animals but, they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed by any means.

I've personally only been in elk country a few times. I personally never taken an elk, passed on what was available. It's around 25-30 hours to hunt elk in most of the places where my friends and family go and drawing tags is not that easy for the quality places and I imagine it's going to be even worse w/ the new 80/20 split the WFD has come up w/ in CO. I have however witnessed several being taken and those were w/ 270 wins, 280 rems, and 300WM. All of which were put down very easily w/ one shot.

None at 500, I told you I think it's unethical to shoot at them that far but, Ballistics will tell you it is possible w/ many carts.

Yes, I have hunted animals here in NA tougher than elk and those were very large Boar. I've taken many Boar, some very large and they are very tough animals. If you've dressed and quatered each (Large Boar & Elk)you will see very quickly why I make that statement. Anyone that tells you a large boar is not a very tough animal, doesn't know much about big boar at all. I also ask you to question a few folks that have shot big boar w/ bows, they usually have a whole new perspective on them.

What I said above about the muzzle energy of a 30-30 would hold true on the Boar as well.

Have a Good One

Reloader

Thx Reloader for your reply- I am not asking folks about their worldly experiences just the plain old mtn elk is all.

I am kind of a curious type and when Franks thread got so much interest I just became interested to know about all those folks experiences with this topic is all. I mean if you look at that thread there was a lot of responese to it.

Nope, I've not been around the big boars (other than rifles and some people...grins), but would love to beat up on a few for darn sure.

As for critter count, rest assured (or assured as you can be that my resume is healthy) but I've been on the hill a plenty. Some years up to 180 days guiding so my count is 100 plus for sure(personnally).

Make it your best day

Mark D

Oops-one other quick thing Reloader about the big boars, I would have to shoot a bunch to relate them to the elk.

I personally could no way look at a 1/4ered critter and get a feel for how tough they are or not.

I would love to pound on a couple of dozen or so and that would start to become a good test for sure.

As for body size, take Mr Marvin the Moose, he is for the most part a heck of a lot bigger critter than Mr Elk and for my money the elk is one heck of a lot tougher critter.

Mark D

Mark ----- Good post, it got me to going back and counting, thus remembering some great hunts. ----- 1. None killed 500 yards or longer. 7 taken 250 yds to 300 yds, the later the longest, all others less than 250 yards, shortest 18 yards. I witnessed a 618 yard Lazered kill with a .300 Wby. ----- 2. 8 with .300 Winnie, 3 with .340 Wby, 1 with .338 Lapua, 5 with .358 STA. May take my .416 Rigby this year, just for the hell of it. ----- 3. I hunted several times prior to 1992, and yearly since then. ----- 4. I have never hunted Elk with an outfitter. When my son was 18 I gave him a hunt for his graduation from High School. We stayed in an outfitters Lodge, but hunted the Wilderness Area behind it on our own, and were luck enough to get our Elk. ----- 5. 17 Elk killed by me, all
Bulls except one and each and every one a true adventure.

This IS fun.........had to sit and think,even get out a pad and paper. Been a LONG time since 1979.

1. Killed a wounded bull at a lasered 555 with 150 NP's in .280 Rem. Saw two others killed at 500-520 yds with a .300 win mag and 168 gr Match Kings. Jesus! Did I REALLY need to type that??


2. Rounds used to kill elk;
.375 H&H w/300 Sierra's/300NP's five or six bulls. Average range 275 to 300 yds.

.280 Rem with 150 NP's at 3000 fps. Ten by my best recollection. Shortest at 150 yds a cow. And the longest was a good bull at 395 yds - 405 yds at 2nd shot.

.300 H&H with 180 NP's at 3050 fps. Two raghorn bulls one at 175 yds, the other at 365 yds.

.338-06 with 250 NP's at 2450 fps. Large bull at 350 yds.

.308 Win 150 gr RP Core-Loks wounded spike shot with M-14 Patrol Rifle at a later lasered 375
yds.
One of the LUCKIEST shots of my life. Killed on duty with my M-14 as my local Game Warden was
riding with me and didn't have his rifle. Witnessed by several "road hunters" who now have a
new Respect for the MT Highway Patrol!

.44 mag....... killed a wounded raghorn bull with a 1300 fps 245 gr Keith slug.

3. Have hunted elk annually since 1979 here in MT.


4. I Hunt alone or with friends. I have
guided for several years now (unpaid, as a payback for MY access) on a large Private
Ranch. This Ranch has several large irrigated hayfields the reason why so many of my
shots are on the lONG side of 300 yds. These elk are like hunting antelope.

5. Personally killed in a sporting manner; 18. Killed on duty, wounded/road accidents 10-12.
Elk wounded by others, shot by me as they were unable to hit it, out of ammo,etc; 6-8? So
I'd say a grand total killed with a rifle to be 25-28??

I may have left a few out but this is pretty close. And for those of You who do the math and it seems like I have killed an over legal amount. I hunt one of the A-9 areas where you can get an additional over the counter cow tag and kill two in one season.

FN in MT

Mark

I have killed two bulls at 500 yards and over one was standing right next to my 500 yard gong the other one was at 513 yards both one shot kills with a .300 Wby 200 gr. Partitions.

I have killed a lot of Elk living on a ranch gives one a little bit of an edge. LOP tags and Damage control and such lost count along time ago.

I haven't taken any elk at any range, despite a few weeks trying. I have seen elk, deer, moose etc at 500 yards and am just short of amazed that anybody can cleanly take one at that range.

How about these Elk hanging at my 400 yard gong.

JoeCool....... GREAT shot. Thanks for sharing.
I lost a ton of great hunting shots when my last computer died on me,taking them all into oblivion. Too stupid to back them up.

I have a new computer and also a new Nikon camers, so this is the year for some good elk shots.

FN in MT

Mark,

You certainly ought to try it one day. They are quite ugly and nasty little boogers but they can take some lead.

If you get ahold of a big old boar he'll have shields covering his vitals that are very impressive and very thick and feel sort of like hairy concrete from the outside. I think alot of folks under estimate big boars. They are a hoot to hunt.

You should have went w/ me back when my brother in-law had dogs. Talk about exciting, we would catch them and bring em' out alive if they weren't too big . It was quite exilerating to say the least.

Well, time to go to the camp and listen for a big tom in the morning.

Have a Good One

Reloader

Joecool-that is a neat pic, I kind of like that they are right next to your target gong.

Twer it me I'd pick out a youngish one and stick a 150 MK right in her ear. No meat damage and great eating for the year.

Mark D

Hey guyz, one other thing there is a boat load of you that are being bashful and not chiming in here. I am talking of course about the folks that were giving Frank ideas on how to go about building a 500 yd wapiti rifle.

So stop being so bashful and chime in please.

Allan Degroot you have a lot to say over there so please chime in here as well.

Thx

Mark D

Mark


From what I have seen most folks can’t hit anything beyond 300 yards I have had people come down on the Ranch and till me what find shots they where so I start them off shooting at the 300 yard gong if they don’t hit it they usually scare it add 100 yards and they don’t even come close to the 400 yards and forget about the 500 yard gong .

It takes lots of practice if one plans on shooting any game at long range not just going out and buying yourself a big bad gun in a Weatherby or Ultra mag. You and I and the folks here that practice at these ranges can indeed get it done. It isn’t an accident that I have those gongs set up were the elk hang out been watching them for thirty years I know were there going before they do .

Larry

Another picture this elk is at 568 yards the 500 yard gong is the white spot down and a little to the left.

I’ve been hunting Elk since 1968. I have always prepared myself for long distance hunting. I have spent a lot of time in load development with many different calibers and lots of different high BC bullets, to much bench time and lots of chronographing.

Hunted in areas where the long shot was very probable Eastern Washington, Idaho and Wyoming. But after all that preparation and practice shooting freehand the real long-range shot never materialized. All of my hoped for long-range shooting has wound up being from 50 feet to near 150 yards, guess the practice paid off though they have all been one shot kills. I’ll still prepare myself for the one long shot at what I hope will be that once in a life time Boone and Crocket Elk. But you know the bottom line is if I get him at 35 feet I’m not going to feel bad.

All of my work over the years on this has come down to two guns 300 Weatherby and 8MM Remington Magnum. I know some of the RUMS would also make an excellent choice at the cost of a lot more recoil so I’ve just decide to stay with these two they have adequate LR power.

I'm not on the list,but I'll respond anyway.

2005 was my 20th year hunting elk. It was also my 32nd elk killed. I hunt both private ranch land,but mostly forest service.

I've killed three elk at 512 yards,493 yards and 503yards. One was with a 30/06 with 168 gr barnes xlc. The other two were with a 7mmrem mag. using a 160gr partition. All one shot kills. All on animals that were stationary.

The rest of my elk were killed at 350 yards or less.

I use a lazer rangefinder alot. I also burn up a 7mag barrel every 5 or 6 years. I get the rifle off the bench after its sighted in properly and practice everything from field positions. I shoot alot of prairie dogs with the 7mag and get my share of rockchucks on the mountain. Not to mention shooting scores of rocks at various ranges,from improvised rests.

I went alot of years shooting very little and still killed elk. However,since practicing more,I've made shots that I know I wouldn't have pulled off previously.

I've also found myself shooting more non mag rounds out to 500 yards. Especially the 30/06.

Great thread, but in my opinion there is no way to kill an elk unless you're shootin' a 7 mag. Anything else will jhust bounce off, trust me .

Well, let's see, on a personal experience level: Discounting the bow kills, the handgun kills and taking an average of the distances of the rifle kills I've made I see that I have nothing to contribute to this other than proof that elk can be killed at distances under 300 yds.

While guiding I saw elk shot anywhere from 300 to the 500 yd plus mark and taken cleanly by practiced riflemen. However, I also saw elk shot AT and wounded and sometimes recovered and sometimes lost and sometimes hit 5 or more times until they died...

I admire you gentlemen who practice at long range and make your shots count, you realize the effort it requires. I would caution you that you must realize that you are the exception, not the rule.

For the second time in 3 years I came upon elk tracks with blood in them in the area I hunt. The tracks lead from outfitted private lands that offer some serious open country where a 500 yd shot may be the rule if you want to take home a rack. Coincidence?

There are any number of quality gunsmiths that can put together a 500 + yd rifle that will kill an elk cleanly; there are a hell of a lot less riflemen skilled enough to use it consistantly.

Hunter-thanks for chiming in.

I like you have spent more than a fair share of my time guiding. Myself from Montana down to Sonora Mex.

Personally, I've found it with clients that if they were going to the 500 yard range while hunting they were ready. I also found I could generally tell which ones could go there and which ones could not.

The other things I found is that there was a lot more animals poorly hit at under 500 than there was at 500 and or beyond.

I believe the reason why is, people either want to practice or they don't. I also believe that the skill level neccessary to go to 500 is there in many people. But, the desire to practice for that situation is not. I also believe that if the desire to practice to 500 is not there that for the most part the desire to practice to 300 on a serious level was not there either.

I've always said that all rounds/rifles and people are equal to 300. It is after that that the things really begin to change.

Snowing pretty darn good over here today.

Mark D

quote:

I've always said that all rounds/rifles and people are equal to 300. It is after that that the things really begin to change.

My experiences have been that after only 100 yards,the difference in shooters starts to be quite evident.

Mark,
Wet spring snow here in Livingston today, still coming down steadily.

I think there is another factor to the 500 yd shot idea; resident vs. non-resident hunter. I don't mean this a as a critism of non-residents just a look at some differences. If you are a resident Montana hunter your elk season is measured in weeks, months if you bow hunt too. I doubt many non-residents come here for 5 weeks, more likely their season is measured in days.

How does this effect shots taken? Well, I recall a really nice bull (The only branch antlered bull I saw that week.) I spotted him standing at about 500 yds, (pre range finder guesstimate). I didn't take the shot but ended up killing a bull about 2 weeks later.(Last year I got back to the same spot, easily recognized for various reasons, and found that the range finder said it was 558 yds. Humm, a five hundred yard hold would not have worked that well.) The point is I had time to look about, time to get another chance.

If I were a non-resident coming to Montana for a 7 to 14 day hunt I'd damn sure make it a point to have the SKILLS and equipment to make that 500 yd. shot.

Skills is the word here. A 340 Wby is an fire-breathing dragon at both ends in my book and I've never met a 338 I liked. I hunt the black timber with 35 Whelen and I'm happy with sub 250yd or especially sub 100yd shots. A man's got to know his limitations, and make the best of them.

5 for 5 with the Whelen, two 5 point bulls (65 and 75 yards), a rag horn (50 yards), a spike (25 yards) and a cow (50 yards.) Of the other elk I've taken with a rifle none have been over 250yds with the exception of two cows in late season pasture shoots both were a bit over 300 yards with a 270 shooting 150gr Partitions. There is a big difference between picking one out from the haystack and just waitng for the perfect shot angle and trophy hunting at 8000 ft. So, I won't try to extrapolate those two into anyone else's possible situation.

here is a pic of red stag (not elk but) - 500 yds (450 m), at 12 x magnification through riflescope - discard the type and position of the reticle and decide if shot is to be taken...

If I had the right nest (rest) absolutely no doubt I would drop the hammer. I have dots from Premier in my fav long rig rifle scope. I would just put the 500 yd dot where I wanted the slug to go.

That would be it.

Hunter-I hear what you're saying about the time element. I personally disagree that it is the res that has more time though. Certainly he could but the greater majority of the fellas I know just can't get that much time.

I personally feel that the non res coming for a week has more time and therefor in theory more time to be shot selective than a res.

Of course a lot of this depends on the people. Some of the Montana folk I know have plenty of time. I am in my mid 40's, I work a boat load and the vast majority of the folk I am close to are in the same book. It is just very tough to find the time to get away for many people.

Mark D

Hello;
I'm not a dedicated Elk hunter, but have been at it for over 30 years. The area I like to hunt is on a draw and very popular, so my opportunities are somewhat limited. Sorry, but I look down on anybody who hunts with an outfitter.
I've killed 5 Bulls, plus guiding my brother in law to one.
My first and furthest was hail Mary shot at a paced 700 yards with a 30/06 and 165 gr. Sierras, sorry no range finders in those days. I was 18 and had the confidence of youth. Today, I would know better. The shot caught the bull in one fore-leg and we ended up tracking him for about 3 miles, before he tired to the point he had to stop.
My second was on a bare mountain top west of the Ya Ha Tinda, again with the 30/06. We spotted him from below, stalked up to him and called. He came at a dead run and I opened fire at about 100 yards. When I finished shooting,with an empty gun, we were down to 25 yards and stood there looking at each other, contemplating our next move, before he keeled over. That's when I decided on a little more gun for the next time.
Three was a 200 yd shot with my 7mm Rem and 162 grn. Hornadies. I stalked him at the edge of an abandoned road on a steep slope. One shot kill but when he fell, he slid down the steep hillside, to a creek bed below and we spent the rest of the day packing him out of there.
Four and five were 250 yard shots on cut blocks, again with the 7mm combination.
My brother in laws was an estimated 400 yard shot with a .270. The bull made it into the trees on the far side of a cut block and we had to do a follow up.
Grizz

1. Never shot at an elk past 235yds, nor have I seen anyone shoot at anything (except the enemy) at that distance. Distances for me have been from 8 feet to around 230-240yds.
2. Killed elk with 30-06, 300WSM, 50cal ML, Recurves, and Longbows.
3. I hunt CO every year (archery) and either MT or NM (also every year) with rifle or ML.
4. CO is DIY, MT same, and NM is always guided
5. 3 w/06, 2 w/300WSM, 3 w/ML, and 9 with traditional bows.