My brother is wanting to buy his 13 year old son a new rifle for deer hunting.They hunt over large planted fields shooting up to 400 yards.He is looking at a 270wsm for him.Is it worth the difference between the 270wsm and the 270 win .How much more does the 270wsm kick?He has shot deer with the 270 win.Does the 270 wsm need a 24" barrel to be faster than the 270 win.I love Ruger model 77s but their 270wsm has a 22" barrel on it.I dont think he could quite handle a 7mm mag yet otherwise I would get him to get him one in a Ruger stainless.He wants a Browning in 270wsm in stainless.I told him I would reload for the 270 wsm because the shells are way higher than the 270 win.

My buddy has a stainless A-bolt in 270 WSM. It shoots nice, but I don't care for it. The recoil (at least in this rifle) is a real sharp jab. No 13-year-old would like it. I'd much rather shoot my 338-06. A mag in a 22" barrel is a waste, IMO. For a 22" barrel, just use a normal 270. You will need 24" at least to make the 270 WSM pay.

I'd buy either a 270 with a 22" bbl or get the 7mm Mag in a 24" bbl. If you are going to reload anyway, you can certainly cook up some rounds that suit his capabilities and not mess with any short mag business.

I can tell you my 13 year old son wouldn't enjoy shooting the 270 WSM. The 270 is plenty, especially for a young boy. In fact, unless reduced loads are used I think it's too much gun for most 13 year olds.

As to the 270 vs 270 WSM... here's the way I look at it; If I wanted a 24" tube of medium to heavy weight I'd get the 270 WSM. If I wanted a lighter rifle with a 22" barrel I'd get the standard 270. The 1925 version is plenty of rifle for 400 or even 600 yard deer killing no matter the barrel length

I can tell you my nephew who is 13 would not enjoy shooting my 270wsm.

I can find no advantage of the WSM over the .270 Winchester. I'd not own one at all.

The .270 Winchester is a fine cartridge and will be difficult enough to learn recoil discipline.

.270 win ammo is readily available as well.

I've never had any trouble getting over 3100 fps. out of the 270 Win. with 130 gr. bullets, even out of a 22" bbl., nor have I had anything but superb accuracy and wonderful results on game with this cartridge, and I've been shooting it since 1978. I don't think the original 270 Win. needs any improving, and if it doesn't fulfill your requirments, the answer isn't more case-capacity, the answer is a bigger bore size and bigger case capacity. In other words, if the 270 Win. doesn't work to your liking on elk, go to a 338 Winchester instead of a 270 WSM.

On top of that, lay your hands on a rifle 270 Winchester, fill the magazine with some dummy rounds (most hold five-down), and test for feeding and function. Then in the same manner, test a 270 WSM. Not only does the 270 Win. hold two more rounds in the magazine, but it feeds far, far better as well.........

AD

Great article in Shooting Times for Oct 2005 about the 270WSM vs 270 Win....kinda surprising when they're compared on exact same platforms....velocity was surprising for both. Dissappointing for the WSM though.

I own two 270wins and one 270wsm. Through my chrono, the 270wsm wins hands down when comparing 24" barreled bolt rifles. The 270win gets a little over 3100 with a 130 grain bullet, while the 270wsm gets a little over 3200 with a 140 grain bullet. As good a long distance round as the original 270 is, the wsm is better.

That, however, has nothing to do with what is better for a 13 year old. The other posters are correct in that the regular 270 ought to be an upper limit for a kid that age, and the wsm kicks noticeably harder, more like a 7mm mag. IMO something like a .243, .260 rem or 7mm-08 would be much better. Heck--I'm 44 and my woods rifle is a .260. It kills like mad and doesn't have me lugging around any extra ordinance or throwing away ruined shoulders. He needs to learn trigger control, proper technique and bullet placement first and foremost, and that will be much easier if recoil is not an issue.

To answer the question......No

Four hundred yards is a long shot, and beyond the capabilities of most hunters that I've seen. There are those that practice at that range and can do it consitently but in field / hunting conditions many fail. The .270W would be fine for this type shot and probably about all he can take in recoil. The WSM is louder, kicks more, and yields little gain for it. Given this, and not knowing this young mans abilities, I'd put him behind a good shooting .25-06. It will reach out with enough oomph to tip 'em over but not abuse him either. If .270 is the minimum then load it with some lighter bullets and as he gets used to it move him up. It's a great deer rifle with the 130's at full speed. The .260 Rem,6.5 Swede, 6.5 Redding (6.5-08 Imp basically), or 6.5-284, 6.5-06 all come immediately to mind as well. Although there's a bit of a jump in performance between them.
The weight of the rifle and length of barrel will greatly affect his ability to hold steady on long shots. If shooting from a blind with some kind of rest, or shooting sticks, a 26" barreled, wood stocked rifle would be my recommendation. If he's going to be heading up into the hills the the weight may become a burden. If that were the case I'd be back to the .257 Roberts or .25-06. Nate

For a 13 year old I'd buy the 270 win or better yet a 25-06.

The WSM will hands down shoot alittle flatter and hit alittle harder but, it also hits harder on both ends which can cause one heck of a flench for young bucks.

w/ the 22" tube you'll probably get close to 3000 w/ 130s at max in the 270 Win the WSM should give you 150-200 more fps but, I wouldn't even waste the time by getting a 22" tube for the Short Mag, I'd personally go 26" but that's just my preference. May even consider a 24" on that 270 win.

You seem to like the Rugers, your a lucky man if you have one that will shoot that was produced in the last 10 years. Maybe they've gotten better rescently, the ones I've shot or witnessed shot were crap. I guess if sub MOA groups aren't your goal they may be ok.

Reloader

Ditto exactly what Reloader said!

R F

I have a couple .270's with 22" barrels and a WSM with 24" barrel. Through the chronograph the WSM goes about 150fps quicker. Shooting them out to 400yds there is so little difference in trajectories that you might wonder which of these rifles your actually shooting. The WSM is 3% to 4% faster than the old 270 win, I really don't see any practical difference at all.

You'll often see more difference between two barrels chambered for either cartridge, than the difference between the two cartridges. I just don't see that much gain in 150 fps in either trajectory or terminal effectiveness to move away from an old friend.

I think if you load your Win .270 to 65000 psi like the WSM, the difference will barely be measureable. The answer is no to the WSM for me.

quote:

I just don't see that much gain in 150 fps in either trajectory or terminal effectiveness to move away from an old friend.

I completely agree and I like the 5 shells in the magazine and one in the spout If I like.
The .270 Win was a winner in 1927 and still is in my book.

I shot my cousins 7mm stw sendero once a few times it was one of the worse recoils of any rifle I ever shot.It was so fast of a recoil it hurt.I can shoot a 338 win mag all day but thaT 7mm stw was no fun.My nephew already shot a deer with his uncles 270 win mag last year.I have taken him to the range many times myself.He is pretty tall for 13 almost 5'10" .He will probally be over 6 foot soon.Thants why I told my brother not to get a youth rifle because he would out grow it too fast.I think the new stock on a ruger Stainless would fit him good.My Brother like browning but I dont for kids because you have to take it off safety to unload them.I hate those kind of safetys.I might see if he can shoot my 264 Ruger stainless 264 win mag.He has already shot it a few times.Then my brother could get him one in 270 win.I think 30-06 is almost too much for him just yet.He will probally only shoot deer unless he comes up to alaska with me then I have plenty of guns for him to shoot.

I don't see a need for the average person for a WSM period...

NOt much is gained with the WSM over the standard 270....

In fact, the standard 270 really doesn't offer that much more over a wildcat 270/08 for velocity... except burning more powder....

For a younger person the 25/06 might even be a better choice.... but I'd go for a 257 Roberts or a 260 Remington over the 25/06...
If one handloads, the Roberts is more efficient and is not very far, if at all, behind the 25/06 in my opinion....

I personally carry the 260 afield alot because handloaded it will equal a 25/06 in a shortaction and shorter barrel length.. it is fine with a 22 inch barrel, where a 25/06 is a long action with a 24 inch barrel needed....I handload 100 grain bullets in a 260 at 3350 fps out of a 22 inch barrel ( Ruger 77 Mk 2 Stainless)....Recoil is light enough that with a scope set on 4 power, I have watched the deer drop in the scope never loosing sight picture...

a 6.5 bore offers bullet weights to 140 grain with no problem, where the 25 caliber stops at 120.... if the action is longer, a 160 grainer RN is also available...

But if you handload, downloads will make any caliber light recoiling enough and there are a lot of reduced recoil receipes that are very very accurate....

As I always ask: Why does everyone think they need a 500 yd rifle to shoot a 50 to 100 yd deer??? We spend too much time dwelling on those once in a blue moon " what if" situations....

Why the constant quest for more velocity and more foot lbs of energy???? 260 Rems don't sell because they are too darn efficient in a world that no one is interested in that... more velocity and more footpounds sell... normally to people who can't take advantage of what those features offer anyway....

Get the boy a 270 WSM and load it like a .270 for now, then when he gets down the road he will grow into the rifle, and you can load it up to it's potential. My WSM is averaging 3405 with a 130 grain North Fork bullet, with the fastest load at 3455 fps. I am getting 3221 fps with a 150 grain North Fork bullet. The .270 will not do that. ----- My grandson started with a 30-30 at 11 years old, at 12 went to the .257 Wby, at 13 a 7mm STW, at 14 he killed his first Elk with my .338 Lapua and shoots it with ease and extremely accurately. Look to the future for the young man, don't put your restrictions on him. Good shooting.

I've got a Ruger M77 Allweather in 270 WSM. With 72gr Magpro, 140gr Accubond and a CCI lrm primer, I'm getting mid 3200s and 1" at 100 yards. Personally, I think that extra barrel length isn't always what it's cracked up to be. My Ruger may be an exception. I don't know. As far a recoil goes, I rarely shoot shoulder arms, so I had to limit how much I shot at the bench. Recoil seemed fairly mild but not having shot anything much from the shoulder, I had to watch my shoulder. Compared to my Dad's 300 Weatherby MK V it seemed fairly mild. That thing is cruel. Kills at both ends. I'm taking it elk hunting in Montana the end of October. I can't wait.

I'm taking my 270, not the Weatherby!!

I load for a couple 270 WSM and several 270 Winchesters. On average loaded to similar limits the WSM is about 200fps faster with the same exact bullets in the same length barrels. 200 fps in reality may not be particularly crucial but it is meaningful.
If 200fps wasn't important there wouldn't be such a thing as "Improved" rounds or magnums. It may not be "crucial" but millions of rifles made and sold have testified to the fact that a little extra velocity is important to a lot of people.
In short though both the 270 WSM and 270 Winchester are great rounds. IMHO the choice should be more on the individual rifle found than the caliber. If you find a rifle you like that fits well in either caliber buy it, you won't go wrong either way..............DJ

My Kimber Montana in 270 WSM weighs less than any of my M70 Featherweights no matter what caliber they are. It also is SS and in a very good stock. This is synergy. You get a complete package that shoots flat and does not kick all that hard for a seasoned shooter. Such a rifle would work for a youngster with reduced loads.

You can't load them up much but you can load then down.

The 270 WSM fills a real niche. The old 270 Win was a good round but not much thats 80 years old is still optimum.

To each his own.

Gidday Guys,

Seafire, as usual I'm with you all the way mate.

Why ruin the poor guy by kicking the bejabbers out of him right at the start.

Its hard enough to ecourage the youngsters to get off their butts and out from behind their playstations without making the alternative a painful experience.

Sure he may go along with Dad for a few years just to be with him but if it is not an enjoyable experience now how do you think hunting is going to compete with all the other "fun" things like girls cars and booze later in his teens.

It is hard enough to get new hunters now as shown by the fact the age of most who post here is over 40 now. Don't put the new guys off before they even get started by making hunting a less than great.

I took a young Aussie out on thursday and gave him a go with the 260 with my reduced loads in a model seven Remington and that scared the pants off him. Yeah I know he was only an Aussie and easily scared but it still holds true that he was a bit fragile after the experience.

If we want our sport to still be available in the future we must encourage the upcoming generation and not scare them off.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

If you don't feel he's ready for a 7 mag.....he's definately not ready for a 270 wsm. I have 3 7 mags a 7 wsm and 270 wsm. The wsm's recoil are violent next to a 7 mag in my opinion. 26" barrels would really make the wsm's shine. A 22" bbl is a waste in my opinion you might as well shoot standard 270. I started with a 25-06 at 14 and loved it.

Here's another set of numbers for the .270wsm haters to consider:

Energy retained at 400 yards

270 Win, 140grain accubond, mv 3050fps, 1674 ft-pounds

270wsm, 140gr accubond, mv 3230fps, 1901 ft-pounds

300WinMag, 180gr accubond, MV 3000fps, 2101 ft-pounds

At long range, I would consider all of these viable elk cartridges. However, the 270wsm splits the difference between the standard 270 and the 300 win mag, in terms of energy retained with comparable bullets. Maybe that's a trivial difference, but I find it hard to write off.

I am going to let my nephew shoot my 264 win mag.Its awesome for long rang shooting on game up to deer size.It waloped the prong horn I shot at around 350 yards.I think if the 264 wsm came around it would be good but would not sell good.I had him shoot it I think 5 times last year when I was down during deer season.He even shot my light as heck 375 jdj contender rifle.I dont want him to be afraid of the gun he is shooting.He is about a year or two away from being about as tall as he will be so I think a youth rifle will be too short for him.He shot 4 deer last year with a 308 at 200 yards.The buck took forever to die even after two good lung shots .The finally shot it in the head with a 22 pistol when the walked up to it.I never trusted the 243 I used much over 150 yards on any deer larger than 200 pounds.I lost a lung shot 10 pointer that was about 250 pounds live weight that was shot at about 100 yards.I trailed him through drops that lasted 1/2 a mile until another guy shot him when he crossed his fence.He never knew the buck was shot.I then bought a 338 win mag and 81 deer later never looked back.I had a 30-06 Remington 742 when I was 11.It was good until it started jamming then I used the 338 from then on with no problems.I want my nephew to have enough gun for those long shots but not a gun too big for him to be afraid of it.I once shot my first 8 pointer with that 30-06 left handed .It about tore my arm off.I think I was about 16 or so at the time.I dont really like 270s but its alot better on deer at longer ranges than the 243 is.I want my nephew to practice as much as he can so I will reload a bunch of ammo for him while I am down for what ever gun he uses.I have not shot any of the new wsms but have not had to with 264s,338s and 416s and my long range gun my 338-378.My hunting buddy in Ak shot two caribou at 400 yards with one shot with my 338-378.He was 11 at the time and weighed about 75 pounds.Its a loud big gun but I put ear muffs on him before he shot and watch him hit both of them by accident before either one of us knew the other one was behind the first one.I just like to see kids using enough gun instead of wounding something and loosing their confidence.

I would choose the regular old .270 Win for your purposes. The WSM does not kick a ton, but it's recoil is still sharp and may be a bit much for a 13 yr old in a light rifle such as the Browning. Using plain-Jane 130 gr factory loads, the .270 has plenty of oomph for shooting deer at 400 yards and if sighted 3" high at 100 yards, you can still hold on brown and make a vital hit at 400 yards.

-Lou

The old timer doesn't loose much ground to the WSM, after shooting a .270WSM in an A-Bolt and a .270WIN in a Vanguard, the old timer comes pretty close. I know, the Browning has a 23" barrel and the Weatherby a 24", but one inch won't greatly change the ballistics. The Weatherby was about 100fps behind with 140gr. Ballistic Tips, and the "inherit accuracy" of the short mag was not evident as the Wall Mart Weatherby handily outshot it. I also own my own .270 in an M700, and likewise, with its 24" tube it gets great speed and trajectory. It is the quintessential deer and antelope cartridge. IMO, if he can handle more than a .270WIN, your next stop on the chart should be the 7mm Remington Magnum and a 26" spout.

Besides, if he's that young, the .270WIN will give him a classy gun with which to start his own collection. I feel bad for gun nuts who don't own one!

It's like arguing between a .30-06 and a .300 Win mag - with 180 gr bullets, the mag goes about 200 fps faster.

If you want the added speed, go for it. 400 yards is a long ways. I do not notice much difference between the kick of a .270 and a .270 WSM.

If you reload, just load some lighter loads and slowly work him up to regular loads. The actual cartridge isn't that important. The 264 mag, 270 win, or 270 wsm will all work along with a host of other cartridges

I did that with both of my nephews and a 270 Win. They started out shooting 90 grain reduced loads then up to 130gr reduced loads and finally hunted with mild 140gr loads. Two deer each later and a couple years of experience they are now shooting full loads.

You can bet as my boys grow up (4&6 years old), they are going to be started with reduced loads and worked up slowly.

No.

Ambient temperature, wind speed and direction, animal attitude and the skill of the boy will have 1000% more to do with his success than the difference between the two rounds.

In other words, it doesn't matter.

My son shot his first deer with a 270 WSM at age 11. 140 yards on his belly with a bipod after a 200 yard stalk. He wasn't thinking about recoil when he shot, I am pretty sure! But I didn't have him shoot 100 rounds off the bench with full bore loads, either.

He was very proficient with the LR, Hornet and reduced loads in the 270. He wasn't expecting to get hurt and he never felt a thing when he fired.

Use light loads to give the boy a feel for the rifle. He won't notice any difference with full loads in the field.

I was faced with the same question last year for my 12 year old nephew and decided on the .270. I have a .270wsm Kimber Montana, and love the rifle, but I felt the recoil was just too much for him. I did not want to send him home with "scope eye" and have his mother ground him from hunting.

Get him a 25-06. If my wife can shoot it, the young guy can as well.

Barstooler

It is my opinion that a 13 year old has no business shooting at an animal at 400 yards unless he is very disciplined and has practiced for months on end on a daily basis from reasonable shooting positions. In other words, 400 yards is not part of the equation.

My nephew, of 12, spent 5 hours with me at the range last year. He comfortably shot one of my 270's the entire time with 130 grain bullets. In no time he was shooting 2" groups at 200 yards.

He did not bruise or complain of shoulder discomfort.

A 270 and a 270 WSM each have their own attributes, however, in this exact situation, the 270, IMO, is more appropriate. Let him take a few animals with it. If he feels like the deer, etc. aren't "dead enough" then let him mow some lawns, save money, trade the Win, and get a WSM later.

A 270 Win with a nice recoil pad just doesn't kick that much.


I have 3 270's. I've thought about a WSM ever since it came out. But, I kept on building the regular WIN. I'm NOT caught up in all of the velocity stuff. Most all of my loads are middle of the road. And when my bullet hits a game animal that I intended to kill (even to 400 yards) from one of my 270's and it gets away, I'll be building a WSM, maybe.

(but I don't see that happening anytime soon)

My brother got him a Ruger 77 mark II wood stocked in 270 win.My nephew shot some does around 250 yards last year.His first deer was a 7 pointer at about 250 yards .It took forever to die and they shot it with a 22 lr.It had crawled into a bunch of cows and they could not shoot.They had to use a 22 pistol because the cows would not leave.I told him to just wait till they were 250 yards or less.I had him shoot with my 22 around 300 times before he went hunting.He shot my 264 win mag and had some 1/2 " groups at 100 yards.If it were not for ammo which is hard to find I would had just gave him one of mine.I am going to him about 300 270s to practice with.Hes an awesome shot.The used 130 gr balistic tips in 270 which distroyed too much meat.I will probally load him some 150 gr remington corelocks they should tear up less meat with still plenty of power up to 300 yards.They put out markers for yardage by his stand.His dad sits right beside him when he shoots.My nephew loves hunting and loves to shoot.His brother loves to fish.Now if I can get both of them hunting and fishing it will be just better.

quote:

270wsm vs 270 win is it worth the difference

Whatever the decision is, it probably won't be in 10 years when 270 ammunition is still being sold at most stores with a sporting goods department. I'd wager that 270 WSM will be a bit harder to find.

JMHO of course.

dgr416

Would you like my biased opinion? Buy the young man a 270 win and never look back with regret.

I killed my first deer at age 13 with Great Grandpa's 270 and had no problems with it.

Just my $.02

quote:

Originally posted by Oscar Makonka:
I have a couple .270's with 22" barrels and a WSM with 24" barrel. Through the chronograph the WSM goes about 150fps quicker. Shooting them out to 400yds there is so little difference in trajectories that you might wonder which of these rifles your actually shooting. The WSM is 3% to 4% faster than the old 270 win, I really don't see any practical difference at all.

Beautiful call ! The good old 270Win will stand the test of time !

Interesting thread. Since it has already gotten off track a little my comments will not be to much out of line.
I am betting that a lot of the people who do not like the 270 WSM and are claiming the small velocity increase of 150-200 fps is meaningless own 300 Win Mags over there 30-06's. They also own Lotts instead of the 458 WM.
Why? Because they like that extra 150-200 fps.
I just ordered one of these rifles. I bought it for the extra velocity it offers and because the action weighs 5-6 ounces less than a standard 06 sized action (comparing short and long Win 70's).
Back to the thread, it certaintly is not a round for all 13 year olds but I bet some can handle it with reduced loads. It is a great package to put together for a long range rifle on medium size critters like deer, antelope, sheep, etc.
Like djpaintles said, if the extra velocity was not desired then we would never have magnums or improved cartirdges.